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Changing Stance, Administration Now Defends Insurance Mandate as a Tax

Are you comfortable with another $2.2 trillion worth of debt?
That is the estimate price of extending all of the Bush admin's income tax cuts.

Ya, I know Bush's tax cuts are gone this year... you want my honest analysis :
- Buy a few years supply of food that won't go bad
- barter items
- weapons to protect it
It would also be a good idea to convince your neighborhood to prepare as best they can as well...

There is NO SAVING the economy. At best Obama can simply delay the inevitable, however, he's done, like Bush did, just about everything wrong.

And, yes... your warren Buffet quote illustrates the WHY this is happening.
 
Ya, I know Bush's tax cuts are gone this year... you want my honest analysis :
- Buy a few years supply of food that won't go bad
- barter items
- weapons to protect it
It would also be a good idea to convince your neighborhood to prepare as best they can as well...

There is NO SAVING the economy. At best Obama can simply delay the inevitable, however, he's done, like Bush did, just about everything wrong.

And, yes... your warren Buffet quote illustrates the WHY this is happening.

You might be right about that. There seems to be an upper limit to income disparity before everything collapses in on itself. I know, correlation is not necessarily causation, but still:
http://www.visualizingeconomics.com/wp-content/uploads/extremeinequalitychart.jpg
This chart ends in 2006, but you can see our current situation mirrors previous crashes. Low tax rates, high income disparity.

One might postulate that concentrating wealth into too few hands leaves the lower class unable to purchase enough to keep the economy going. Borrowing starts to rise and eventually it all falls under its own weight.

Edit: Although I disagree that we're coming up on the "stock up on guns for the fall of civilization" state.
 
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Edit: Although I disagree that we're coming up on the "stock up on guns for the fall of civilization" state.

Listen, back in the 30's when the economy collapsed, there were about 80-90% of people that were self-sufficient... they could live off the land if need be, while the rest were in cities. Now, it's maybe 90% of the population are urban, and 10% rural, and of the 10% maybe half are actually self-sufficient...

7 million people starved to death during the great depression, and these were most all hardworking, moral, and honorable people. Today, the population is decadent, cares only about themselves, immoral, slobs, care more about sports, sex and drugs then about the world. Not only that, could not survive off the land if they had to, even with the right tools.

Finally, after 3 days without food most people will begin to steal... after 7 days they are willing to kill for food... by 15 days cannibalism begins to set in.

However, there's still the high tech overlay.... to give a movie analogy, I think the world will begin to look something like the world of children with men. What with things like the patriot act, civilian inmate labour camp programs, GIVE act, etc... that's not even so much of a stretch.

Look, we're headed to the end of this thing... we need to brace ourselves, and really look at what we're heading into, and we need to be preparing. I mean, I used to think that this was coming, but way later on... but the way things are going, it might be as soon as 6-12 months before things really start getting crazy, though there are things that can be done to delay the inevitable. Better to prepare as a community then as individuals.
 
Well I suppose you have a point... oh wait, no, no you have no point at all.

A TAX, cannot force an Average American CITIZEN to purchase a PRODUCT OR SERVICE he may or may not wish to purchase. Freedom, Liberty Trump any thing some worthless "progressive" legal group wants to claim. Obama's so far left he thinks this makes sense, and only those that far left with him would accept such nonsense a mere tax.

That's the failing of the entire affair. We are "Forced" to purchase a service, whether we WANT IT OR NOT, just to live in this country. That, is not acceptable, and will be struck down by the courts.

Sure he can. This entire argument of "taxation w/o representation" is inaccurate where health care reform legistlation is concerned. We've all been represented by virtue of having all those townhall meetings and debates in Congress by every Representative imaginable. So, that argument wouldn't hold water since the entire nation knew about them.

As to the insurance penalty/tax - whatever it's bound to be called - here's how I see it:

Conservatives/Republicans argue that too many of America's citizens are using emergency rooms as primary care. I won't touch the illegal immigrate issue because the only way to curb that is to either deport every illegal or convert them all into American citizens. Until either happens, we're just gonna have to suck it up because by law emergency rooms can't turn away anyone who walks through their doors who are deemed in need of care. Back to the point...

If the argument is too many Americans are going w/o health care, what are the solutions to getting them health care?

1. We enact universal health care. We'll we know how that worked out...

2. We enact a public option which is sort of a "50/50 mix" of those who can afford health care and those who otherwise cannot w/o goverment assistance. In its basic form, the public option would have allowed consumers to either obtain low-cost health insurance directly through a health insurance exchange* OR it would have provided government subsides to help offset the cost of health insurance offered by the government. Either way, consumers would have paid in whole or in part for their health care. That idea was scraped because Congressional opposition feared that citizens would leave employer-sponsored health insurance in droves for the cheaper, low-cost government sponsored health insurace. The counter argument which I agree with was that the health care plans offered by the government would be base plans that all health insurance providers would have to meet. Moreover, if the private sector could offer health insurance under broader plans that go beyond the minimum base requirement at a fair price, competition via the "free enterprise system" would still be present. Therefore, the argument that was being used w/the bailout of the banks and GM, towit, "let the free enterprise system work" doesn't hold water when this same argument was applied to the public option -vs- private sector health insurance. Unfortunately, we will never know if this concept would have worked as outlined since the public option was scrapped.

3. We raise the minimum wage to such a degree that people with low-income can afford health insurance on their own. Or we mandate that every employer must provide health care to their employees including part-time employees since it is these individuals, as well as those whose income is based mostly on tips, who are being shafted the most where health insurance or the lack thereof is concerned.

4. We force everyone to have health insurance and those who do not must pay a penalty that goes toward defraying the cost of health care received via emergency rooms on the public's nickle.

*Note: Under Part II, Section 1311 of H.R. 3590, Health Insurance Exchanges can be established by the individual States. In doing so, they must meet guidelines as outlined in H.R. 3590; however, the States can opt-out of establishing same per Section 1333(b)(2).
 
Meant to add the following to my last post:

Sidenote: If the claim is true by Republicans that most of the "uninsured" are illegals and H.R. 3590 makes it clear that no illegals will be authorized to participate in any State's HIE, it stands to reason that most Americans will receive their health insurance either through their employer, their State's HIE if they offer one, Medicaid or Medicare or on their own if they can afford to do so. Assuming these avenues of obtaining health insurance holdstrue, I'm curious how many American citizens would face paying a penalty for not having insurance since the States will offer high-risk pools until they can established thier HIEs or Community Health Insurance options within their respective HIE's? Seems to me the People will be afforded several opportunities to gain health insurance including the States being allowed to form intra-state HIEs even if individuals can't afford to do so on their own but using government subsidies until 2015, 1-year after the Exchanges are authorized to form. This is why I continue to argue the importance of the People educating themselves where health care reform is concerned. Alot of what's being stated by Republicans just isn't true, i.e., the penalty on individuals. Per Part II, Section 1311(d)(4)(H):

subject to section 1411, grant a certification attesting that, for purposes of the individual responsibility penalty under section 5000A of the Internal Revenue Code of 1986, an individual is exempt from the individual
requirement or from the penalty imposed by such section because—

(i) there is no affordable qualified health plan available through the Exchange, or the individual’s employer, covering the individual; or
(ii) the individual meets the requirements for any other such exemption from the individual responsibility requirement or penalty;

H.R. 3590 provides several opportunities for individuals to obtain exemptions due to their inability to afford health insurance. As such, if citizens follow the rules and qualify for an exemption, there really shouldn't be a problem with this mandate.
 
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You mean uninsured people will have to start paying for some of the health care they receive in the emergency room? Dang. That's terrible.

I'm also not sure I'd describe $695/year for the uninsured as "big" or "fat" or "everyone."

But yes, there's a $695 tax penalty for not carrying insurance. Is this a surprise to you? Did you not pay any attention at all during the last 18 months?

What a masterful strawman Deuce. So well that a bunch of people actually fell for it.

Too bad this thread wasn't about people having to pay for themselves at emergency rooms, but had to do with outright abject lies and dishonesty perpetrated by the candidate that was going to "Change" politics as usual.
 
Well, "Change We Can Believe In" folks.

What? Obama? No. The change I'm talking about is all the liberals that were all gung ho for that message during the campaign because they were sick of the lies, dishonesty, and political games of George W. Bush and were wanting a more transparent and honest government who now suddenly have no qualms with a President bald faced lying to the American Public to push through legislation beause "hey, he's just a politician".

:roll:
 
Meant to add the following to my last post:

Sidenote: If the claim is true by Republicans that most of the "uninsured" are illegals and H.R. 3590 makes it clear that no illegals will be authorized to participate in any State's HIE, it stands to reason that most Americans will receive their health insurance either through their employer, their State's HIE if they offer one, Medicaid or Medicare or on their own if they can afford to do so. Assuming these avenues of obtaining health insurance holdstrue, I'm curious how many American citizens would face paying a penalty for not having insurance since the States will offer high-risk pools until they can established thier HIEs or Community Health Insurance options within their respective HIE's? Seems to me the People will be afforded several opportunities to gain health insurance including the States being allowed to form intra-state HIEs even if individuals can't afford to do so on their own but using government subsidies until 2015, 1-year after the Exchanges are authorized to form. This is why I continue to argue the importance of the People educating themselves where health care reform is concerned. Alot of what's being stated by Republicans just isn't true, i.e., the penalty on individuals. Per Part II, Section 1311(d)(4)(H):



H.R. 3590 provides several opportunities for individuals to obtain exemptions due to their inability to afford health insurance. As such, if citizens follow the rules and qualify for an exemption, there really shouldn't be a problem with this mandate.

Shouldn't be a problem ???? Are you serious???

1. How can a family living paycheck to paycheck afford to pay out over $6,000. in insurance premiums and out-of-pocket medical expenses each year ??

2. How can a family living paycheck to paycheck afford a tax penalty of $1,500. every year ???
 
What a masterful strawman Deuce. So well that a bunch of people actually fell for it.

Too bad this thread wasn't about people having to pay for themselves at emergency rooms, but had to do with outright abject lies and dishonesty perpetrated by the candidate that was going to "Change" politics as usual.

The OP decided to pursue the derail about mandates and the tax being separate or something. That spun off a whole ridiculous semantics discussion. In case you hadn't noticed, the derail is over. Yet here you are bringing it up again. Read the thread.

I disagreed with Obama when he said that. I already mentioned this. I've disagreed with Obama on a lot of things. Is this what you do? Reply to a post in the first page without reading the other six?
Many times on this forum I've called Obama "Bush III," so don't act like I'm trying to deflect attention from his acting like every other goddamned president in history. He's a centrist corporate shill like all the rest.
 
Remember that Obama's plan was essentially the Republican plan from the 90s. In effect the only people who pay the tax are the people who don't have health insurance.
 
Remember that Obama's plan was essentially the Republican plan from the 90s. In effect the only people who pay the tax are the people who don't have health insurance.

Yeah, the people least able to afford it.
 
Yeah, the people least able to afford it.

No, the people you describe would qualify for tax credits for the health insurance.
 
No, the people you describe would qualify for tax credits for the health insurance.

Two questions:

1. How can a family of four making $32,000 a year afford over $5,000. in out of pocket expenses for health insurance. That's what they have to pay AFTER the tax credit.

2. How can this family afford to pay $10,108. a year for health insurance premiums, then wait to get a tax credit up to a year later? Do you think they have an extra $840/month laying around ??? Are they supposed to wait til they file income taxes and get their refund the next year before buying groceries for their kids ?? And even then, they probably won't get all the money back.
 
Two questions:

1. How can a family of four making $32,000 a year afford over $5,000. in out of pocket expenses for health insurance. That's what they have to pay AFTER the tax credit.

2. How can this family afford to pay $10,108. a year for health insurance premiums, then wait to get a tax credit up to a year later? Do you think they have an extra $840/month laying around ??? Are they supposed to wait til they file income taxes and get their refund the next year before buying groceries for their kids ?? And even then, they probably won't get all the money back.

exactly where did you get these numbers?
 
Its a stupid idea for the tea parties to try and make the notion that Obama is violating the constitution. He's a constitutional scholar and former constitutional professor along with a brilliant lawyer who deeply respects the document and will wipe the floor with anyone trying to use it as leverage over his administration.



As one he sucks, he understand little of the origional intent of the founding fathers and uses his "learnin" skills on how to manipulate the USC into something its not.
 
Two questions:

1. How can a family of four making $32,000 a year afford over $5,000. in out of pocket expenses for health insurance. That's what they have to pay AFTER the tax credit.

2. How can this family afford to pay $10,108. a year for health insurance premiums, then wait to get a tax credit up to a year later? Do you think they have an extra $840/month laying around ??? Are they supposed to wait til they file income taxes and get their refund the next year before buying groceries for their kids ?? And even then, they probably won't get all the money back.

This family you mentioned would be exempt from the tax penalty. If the premiums are more than 8% of your income, you are below the poverty line, you are incarcerated, or you are part of a group with a recognized religious exemption, you do not get the penalty.

edit: Or if you're an illegal immigrant. :D
edit2: Or a member of an indian tribe.
 
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This family you mentioned would be exempt from the tax penalty. If the premiums are more than 8% of your income, you are below the poverty line, you are incarcerated, or you are part of a group with a recognized religious exemption, you do not get the penalty.

edit: Or if you're an illegal immigrant. :D
edit2: Or a member of an indian tribe.

My post didn't mention a tax penalty ???

So you admit that it will be practically impossible for low income families to actually have health insurance ??? That will be the outcome of this pig of a bill. An awful lot of people are going to be really mad when the lamestream media finally gets around to explaining the nuts and bolts of this monstrosity.
 
My post didn't mention a tax penalty ???

So you admit that it will be practically impossible for low income families to actually have health insurance ??? That will be the outcome of this pig of a bill. An awful lot of people are going to be really mad when the lamestream media finally gets around to explaining the nuts and bolts of this monstrosity.

It will be slightly more possible for them to have health insurance than it is now. This bill could have been better, much better, but the GOP wouldn't cooperate at all. It would have been much easier to get a good bill if they only needed 51 votes instead of 60, and if the GOP had thrown some votes in they would even have gotten a better say in the bill's outcome. This is what happens when the government is fighting itself.

Many will get subsidies and new people will qualify for medicaid.
However, we would have been better off with single-payer, in my opinion.
 
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It will be slightly more possible for them to have health insurance than it is now. This bill could have been better, much better, but the GOP wouldn't cooperate at all. It would have been much easier to get a good bill if they only needed 51 votes instead of 60, and if the GOP had thrown some votes in they would even have gotten a better say in the bill's outcome. This is what happens when the government is fighting itself.

Many will get subsidies and new people will qualify for medicaid.
However, we would have been better off with single-payer, in my opinion.

No, it will be completely impossible for the vast majority of low income families to even consider purchasing health insurance. Almost no families will be able to afford an extra $840. a month.

Millions will be forced to pay Obama's tax penalty which would buy several months of groceries or pay a months rent. And.... the medical system will still be paying for millions of patients with no health insurance.

The GOP wouldn't cooperate because the Dems would not listen to any of their proposals. It was the Dem's way or nothing. The GOP wisely decided they didn't want their fingerprints on this pig.

What will have been gained ????
 
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No, it will be completely impossible for the vast majority of low income families to even consider purchasing health insurance. Almost no families will be able to afford an extra $840. a month.

Millions will be forced to pay Obama's tax penalty which would buy several months of groceries or pay a months rent. And.... the medical system will still be paying for millions of patients with no health insurance.

The GOP wouldn't cooperate because the Dems would not listen to any of their proposals. It was the Dem's way or nothing. The GOP wisely decided they didn't want their fingerprints on this pig.

What will have been gained ????

At least 80 GOP amendments made the bill, and supposedly the actual number is around 160. (GOP allegedly blocked the release of the full list)

Families below the poverty line will be eligible for medicaid. Low income families just above the poverty line will be eligible for some subsidies, but if they still can't afford it they'll be exempt from the tax penalty.
Those who do pay the tax penalty will have chipped in a few bucks towards their health care when they go to the ER while uninsured.

The situation is not fixed, but it is improved.
 
At least 80 GOP amendments made the bill, and supposedly the actual number is around 160. (GOP allegedly blocked the release of the full list)

Families below the poverty line will be eligible for medicaid. Low income families just above the poverty line will be eligible for some subsidies, but if they still can't afford it they'll be exempt from the tax penalty.
Those who do pay the tax penalty will have chipped in a few bucks towards their health care when they go to the ER while uninsured.

The situation is not fixed, but it is improved.

You still choose to ignore the very real numbers I posted above..... What about the poor families of four making just over $32,000. ???? They are SOL. I guess they'll be left hoping for change... right ??

How can a family living paycheck to paycheck pay for health insurance and wait for up to a year for their tax credit ???

As far as Republican amendments, not a single one was significant or changed the bill in any meaningful way. The Dems wouldn't allow it.
 
You still choose to ignore the very real numbers I posted above..... What about the poor families of four making just over $32,000. ???? They are SOL. I guess they'll be left hoping for change... right ??

How can a family living paycheck to paycheck pay for health insurance and wait for up to a year for their tax credit ???

As far as Republican amendments, not a single one was significant or changed the bill in any meaningful way. The Dems wouldn't allow it.

Plenty were significant. If the GOP had been willing to put up some votes they might have gotten more substantial changes. You can't expect to get everything you want but have the other guy vote it in for you. Doesn't work that way, they're the minority party.
The family of four making $32000 won't have to pay the tax penalty, so they at the least would not be worse off than they are now. They are eligible for the subsidy if they can make it work. Premiums are also capped as % of income.
HR3200 would have done more to address this income gap, but that bill was just too damned liberal apparently. The big scary Public Option, which hardly anyone would have even been eligible to enroll in, would have run those poor insurance companies out of business, if you ask the GOP anyway.
 
Plenty were significant. If the GOP had been willing to put up some votes they might have gotten more substantial changes. You can't expect to get everything you want but have the other guy vote it in for you. Doesn't work that way, they're the minority party.
The family of four making $32000 won't have to pay the tax penalty, so they at the least would not be worse off than they are now. They are eligible for the subsidy if they can make it work. Premiums are also capped as % of income.
HR3200 would have done more to address this income gap, but that bill was just too damned liberal apparently. The big scary Public Option, which hardly anyone would have even been eligible to enroll in, would have run those poor insurance companies out of business, if you ask the GOP anyway.

You are continuing to ignore the real numbers I posted. Forget the damn tax penalty, I never said they would have to pay it.

Just answer this question.... how will this family be able to afford health insurance, EVEN with the subsidy????? Health insurance will cost them over $10,000 a year. They have to pay that amount then wait a year for a tax rebate. Their total out-of-pocket expenses will be over $5,000, EVEN with the subsidy !!!!
 
You mean uninsured people will have to start paying for some of the health care they receive in the emergency room? Dang. That's terrible.

I'm also not sure I'd describe $695/year for the uninsured as "big" or "fat" or "everyone."

But yes, there's a $695 tax penalty for not carrying insurance. Is this a surprise to you? Did you not pay any attention at all during the last 18 months?

WOW! Totally missing the point. (on purpose, he-he)
 
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