CBO: Stimulus hurts economy in the long run

[Conservative]

I did say us. And we actually have studies on this. Business actually was quite successful at the higher tax rate. Wealthy were still wealthy. The world did not crash.

We didn't have 25 million unemployed/under employed Americans at the time so your studies are biased based upon different economic times. Cite those studies that verify your claims?

 

[Boo Radley]

We didn't have 25 million unemployed/under employed Americans at the time so your studies are biased based upon different economic times. Cite those studies that verify your claims?

Nope. We've had bad times before as well. Tax cuts and tax increases had next to no effect on either. Sorry. :coffeepap

 

[Conservative]

Nope. We've had bad times before as well. Tax cuts and tax increases had next to no effect on either. Sorry. :coffeepap

That is your opinion hardly fact. Sorry

 

[Boo Radley]

That is your opinion hardly fact. Sorry

No, I've linked the evidence for you before. You can even look it up yourself. :2funny:

 

[Conservative]

No, I've linked the evidence for you before. You can even look it up yourself. :2funny:

You linked it to opinion pieces as there is no evidence that you know what you are talking about

 

[Boo Radley]

You linked it to opinion pieces as there is no evidence that you know what you are talking about

Nope. I linked to studies. There is a difference. However, again, you can educate yourself. You don't have to drink the koolaid. :2funny:

 

[Conservative]

Nope. I linked to studies. There is a difference. However, again, you can educate yourself. You don't have to drink the koolaid. :2funny:

Funny, that kool-aid taught me personal responsibility and not to rely in you to provide me for what I want and need. Real data matters, not studies. You have offered no solutions to the problems we face today and simply continue to buy anything that suits your agenda. That doesn't make you right but it does make you look foolish. The Obama results are there for all to see but you choose to be blind.

I have provided data and studies as well but because they don't agree with yours they are discounted. what is it about liberalism that creates such loyalty and such an economic disaster? How do you raise taxes with 25 million plus unemployed/under employed Americans? How did Reagan create 17 million jobs and grow govt revenue by cutting taxes almost 25%. How did GW Bush increase govt. revenue and create over 6 million jobs after the Clinton recession and 9/11 by cutting taxes?

Liberals are a one way street, live for the present, never adjust for human behavior, and ignore economic growth as a factor in growing revenue. In the liberal world the pie always remains the same

 

[Boo Radley]

Funny, that kool-aid taught me personal responsibility and not to rely in you to provide me for what I want and need. Real data matters, not studies. You have offered no solutions to the problems we face today and simply continue to buy anything that suits your agenda. That doesn't make you right but it does make you look foolish. The Obama results are there for all to see but you choose to be blind.

I have provided data and studies as well but because they don't agree with yours they are discounted. what is it about liberalism that creates such loyalty and such an economic disaster? How do you raise taxes with 25 million plus unemployed/under employed Americans? How did Reagan create 17 million jobs and grow govt revenue by cutting taxes almost 25%. How did GW Bush increase govt. revenue and create over 6 million jobs after the Clinton recession and 9/11 by cutting taxes?

Liberals are a one way street, live for the present, never adjust for human behavior, and ignore economic growth as a factor in growing revenue. In the liberal world the pie always remains the same

Apparently it didn't teach personal responsibility because you seem to always want to relieve the wealthy and business from their responsibility in our system. Not to meantion you don't want people responsible enough to get health insurance. So, I don't buy your talking point.

And you provide data that doesn't address the issue at hand. Repeatedly your error has been shown to you. You're stuck in a loop and can't seem to move toward something that actually addresses the issue, and instead repeat the numbers with no regard as to what they mean.

 

[Conservative]

Apparently it didn't teach personal responsibility because you seem to always want to relieve the wealthy and business from their responsibility in our system. Not to meantion you don't want people responsible enough to get health insurance. So, I don't buy your talking point.

And you provide data that doesn't address the issue at hand. Repeatedly your error has been shown to you. You're stuck in a loop and can't seem to move toward something that actually addresses the issue, and instead repeat the numbers with no regard as to what they mean.

Spoken like someone out of touch with reality. Why are you so jealous of what some company or someone else makes? As for health insurance are you paying attention to what you are saying? I don't want people responsible enough to get health insurance? Since health insurance is a personal responsibility why does it matter what you or I think about the issue. Seems that personal choice only matters when it comes to abortions. You really should learn what personal responsibility is. Personal responsibility for someone else isn't yours.

Stuck in the loop? Results matter, not rhetoric. You buy the rhetoric and ignore the results. Not sure where you work but if that is the way your company operates then it should be in trouble. I put those numbers in context but you ignored it. Democrats controlled the Congress from January 2007-January 2011 thus the legislative process and purse strings. Obama had overwhelming numbers and yet generated the numbers I have posted. You seem to lack basic management understanding and that same attitude belongs to Obama. Obama delegated responsibility and that is a prescription for failure which he has generated.

 

[Boo Radley]

Spoken like someone out of touch with reality. Why are you so jealous of what some company or someone else makes? As for health insurance are you paying attention to what you are saying? I don't want people responsible enough to get health insurance? Since health insurance is a personal responsibility why does it matter what you or I think about the issue. Seems that personal choice only matters when it comes to abortions. You really should learn what personal responsibility is. Personal responsibility for someone else isn't yours.

Stuck in the loop? Results matter, not rhetoric. You buy the rhetoric and ignore the results. Not sure where you work but if that is the way your company operates then it should be in trouble. I put those numbers in context but you ignored it. Democrats controlled the Congress from January 2007-January 2011 thus the legislative process and purse strings. Obama had overwhelming numbers and yet generated the numbers I have posted. You seem to lack basic management understanding and that same attitude belongs to Obama. Obama delegated responsibility and that is a prescription for failure which he has generated.

Now that the you're repeated the mindless statisitics, you follow with the personal attack. You're way too predictable my friend.

And yes, you are on stuck. :2funny: :2funny: :2funny:

 

[Conservative]

Now that the you're repeated the mindless statisitics, you follow with the personal attack. You're way too predictable my friend.

And yes, you are on stuck. :2funny: :2funny: :2funny:

Right, anything that refutes your claims or asks the tough questions is a personal attack.

 

[Boo Radley]

Right, anything that refutes your claims or asks the tough questions is a personal attack.

1) you have not refuted my claim.

And

2) It was the personal attack that was the personal attack, not the information you don't understand you presented. Like this:

Spoken like someone out of touch with reality.

:2funny: :2funny: :2funny:

 

[Kushinator]

As long as SS is mandatory then the money should go where it belongs, into a trust fund and not on budget. Doing that would assure proper funding.

Hedge Funds, Trust Funds, and Money Market Funds all have strong ties to the U.S. Treasury market due to it being a virtually default free asset class and its sheer liquidity.

 

[Conservative]

Hedge Funds, Trust Funds, and Money Market Funds all have strong ties to the U.S. Treasury market due to it being a virtually default free asset class and its sheer liquidity.

SS was established to go into a separate account and not put on budget to be spent as desired by the Congress. The SS fund wasn't invested and lost, it was spent.

 

[Kushinator]

SS was established to go into a separate account and not put on budget to be spent as desired by the Congress. The SS fund wasn't invested and lost, it was spent.

Nope! The S.S. trust fund is composed of U.S. treasury securities because they earn interest and are about as risk free as you can get. When you put money into a depository account, do you honestly believe it just sits there?

 

[Conservative]

Nope! The S.S. trust fund is composed of U.S. treasury securities because they earn interest and are about as risk free as you can get. When you put money into a depository account, do you honestly believe it just sits there?

Do you honestly believe that the money is there to repay those SS IOU's from the SS trust fund? where does the money come from that pays the interest on those securities?

 

[j-mac]

Nope! The S.S. trust fund is composed of U.S. treasury securities because they earn interest and are about as risk free as you can get. When you put money into a depository account, do you honestly believe it just sits there?

"Democrats have been insisting for decades that there’s really a Social Security trust fund, which provides the funding for Social Security payments. It’s supposed to be an insurance plan, remember. We paid into the program, the money was put aside, and then the money is paid out.

Except no trust fund exists. The money went to funding the day-to-day operations of the federal government."

Obama Admits: Social Security Trust Fund Doesn’t Exist | The American Pundit

I wonder if there was no problem with SS, and there is this magic trust fund out there invested in securities like you say, then why did Obama threaten to not send out SS payments over the summer if repubs didn't back his debt increase?

j-mac

 

[finebead]

No, you won't.

FDR's policies prolonged Depression by 7 years, UCLA economists calculate / UCLA Newsroom

Only blind hacks still believe FDR helped anyone during the GD, he was instrumental in making it drag out, and hurt so much. Had it NOT been for WWII, who knows when the pain would have ended.

You cannot read the Cole and Ohanian study and conclude that FDR did not help anyone in the great depression. The study does not say that. The study only focused on ONE policy that was enacted in 1933, the National Industrial Recovery Act (NIRA), out of the MANY acts that FDR put in place. The act allowed businesses to agree to set prices higher than normal if they paid wages higher than normal (declared unconstitutional in 1935).

These are the New Deal programs:

The New Deal had many programs and new agencies, most of which were universally known by their initials. They included the following. Most were abolished during World War II; others remain in operation today:

Reconstruction Finance Corporation (RFC) a Hoover agency expanded under Jesse Holman Jones to make large loans to big business. Ended in 1954.
Some WPA programs included adult education.
Federal Emergency Relief Administration (FERA) a Hoover program to create unskilled jobs for relief; replaced by WPA in 1935.
United States bank holiday, 1933: closed all banks until they became certified by federal reviewers
Abandonment of gold standard, 1933: gold reserves no longer backed currency; still exists
Civilian Conservation Corps (CCC), 1933–1942: employed young men to perform unskilled work in rural areas; under United States Army supervision; separate program for Native Americans
Homeowners Loan Corporation (HOLC) helped people keep their homes, the government bought properties from the bank allowing people to pay the government instead of the banks in installments they could afford, keeping people in their homes and banks afloat.
Tennessee Valley Authority (TVA), 1933: effort to modernize very poor region (most of Tennessee), centered on dams that generated electricity on the Tennessee River; still exists
Agricultural Adjustment Act (AAA), 1933: raised farm prices by cutting total farm output of major crops and livestock; replaced by a new AAA because the Supreme Court ruled it unconstitutional.
National Industrial Recovery Act (NIRA), 1933: industries set up codes to reduce unfair competition, raise wages and prices; ended 1935. The US Supreme Court ruled the NIRA unconstitutional
Public Works Administration (PWA), 1933: built large public works projects; used private contractors (did not directly hire unemployed). Ended 1938.
Federal Deposit Insurance Corporation (FDIC) insures bank deposits and supervises state banks; still exists
Glass–Steagall Act regulates investment banking; repealed 1999
Securities Act of 1933, created the SEC, 1933: codified standards for sale and purchase of stock, required awareness of investments to be accurately disclosed; still exists
FERA camp for unemployed black women, Atlanta, 1934
Civil Works Administration (CWA), 1933–34: provided temporary jobs to millions of unemployed
Indian Reorganization Act, 1934: moved away from assimilation; policy dropped
Social Security Act (SSA), 1935: provided financial assistance to: elderly, handicapped, paid for by employee and employer payroll contributions; required 7 years contributions, so first payouts were in 1942; still exists
Works Progress Administration (WPA), 1935: a national labor program for more than 2 million unemployed; created useful construction work for unskilled men; also sewing projects for women and arts projects for unemployed artists, musicians and writers; ended 1943.
National Labor Relations Act (NLRA) / Wagner Act, 1935: set up National Labor Relations Board to supervise labor-management relations; In the 1930s, it strongly favored labor unions. Modified by the Taft-Hartley Act (1947); still exists
Judicial Reorganization Bill, 1937: gave the President power to appoint a new Supreme Court judge for every judge 70 years or older; failed to pass Congress
Federal Crop Insurance Corporation (FCIC), 1938: Insures crops and livestock against loss of production or revenue. Was restructured during the creation of the Risk Management Agency in 1996 but continues to exist.
Surplus Commodities Program (1936); gives away food to poor; still exists as Food Stamp Program
Fair Labor Standards Act 1938: established a maximum normal work week of 44 hours and a minimum wage of 40 cents/hour and outlawed most forms of child labor; still exists, hours have been lowered to 40 hours over the years.
Surplus Commodities Program, 1936
Rural Electrification Administration, (REA)one of the federal executive departments of the United States government charged with providing public utilities (electricity, telephone, water, sewer) to rural areas in the U.S. via public-private partnerships. still exists.
Resettlement Administration (RA), Resettled poor tenant farmers; replaced by Farm Security Administration in 1935.
Farm Security Administration (FSA), Helped poor farmers by a variety of economic and educational programs; still exists as Farmers Home Administration.

New Deal - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



Now, let's look at Mr. Ohanian:

Lee E. Ohanian
Professor of Economics, University of California, Los Angeles
Senior Fellow, Hoover Institution, Stanford University

Lee E. Ohanian | Papers

And yes, it's THAT HOOVER, the Herbert Hoover that was president from the bursting of the stock market bubble in 1929 to the bottom of the depression in 1932.

Here is the Hoover Institute's mission statement:

Mission Statement

Now more than five decades old, Herbert Hoover's 1959 statement to the Board of Trustees of Stanford University on the purpose and scope of the Hoover Institution continues to guide and define its mission in the twenty-first century:

"This Institution supports the Constitution of the United States, its Bill of Rights and its method of representative government. Both our social and economic systems are based on private enterprise from which springs initiative and ingenuity.... Ours is a system where the Federal Government should undertake no governmental, social or economic action, except where local government, or the people, cannot undertake it for themselves.... The overall mission of this Institution is, from its records, to recall the voice of experience against the making of war, and by the study of these records and their publication, to recall man's endeavors to make and preserve peace, and to sustain for America the safeguards of the American way of life. This Institution is not, and must not be, a mere library. But with these purposes as its goal, the Institution itself must constantly and dynamically point the road to peace, to personal freedom, and to the safeguards of the American system."

The principles of individual, economic, and political freedom; private enterprise; and representative government were fundamental to the vision of the Institution's founder. By collecting knowledge, generating ideas, and disseminating both, the Institution seeks to secure and safeguard peace, improve the human condition, and limit government intrusion into the lives of individuals.

Mission Statement | Hoover Institution


Do you think Ohanian is unbiased, or biased a LOT? He's totally biased. He may be correct that the NIRA program did not work well, but that does not prove that FDR didn't do anything good in the depths of the depression. The best proof that he did do good is the people kept electing him, in 1932, 36, 40 and 44. That was opposed to the one term republican Hoover, who was shown the door by the voters. That's proof of what the majority of the people at the time thought.

Here is a refutation of Mr. Ohanian:
http://rebello.wordpress.com/2009/0...n-will-obamas-policies-have-a-similar-effect/

 

[Dickieboy]

Do you think Ohanian is unbiased, or biased a LOT? He's totally biased.

You mean the same Ohanian that stated 'Pro-labor policies pushed by President Herbert Hoover after the stock market crash of 1929 accounted for close to two-thirds of the drop in the nation's gross domestic product over the two years that followed, causing what might otherwise have been a bad recession to slip into the Great Depression'...'These findings suggest that the recession was three times worse — at a minimum — than it would otherwise have been, because of Hoover'.

University of California - UC Newsroom | Hoover's pro-labor stance spurred Great Depression

Bias, I don't see it.

 

[AdamT]

You mean the same Ohanian that stated 'Pro-labor policies pushed by President Herbert Hoover after the stock market crash of 1929 accounted for close to two-thirds of the drop in the nation's gross domestic product over the two years that followed, causing what might otherwise have been a bad recession to slip into the Great Depression'...'These findings suggest that the recession was three times worse — at a minimum — than it would otherwise have been, because of Hoover'.

University of California - UC Newsroom | Hoover's pro-labor stance spurred Great Depression

Bias, I don't see it.

The bias isn't pro-Hoover, but pro small government conservatism. So coming out against President Hoover's allegedly pro-labor policy does not contradict the assertion of bias.

 

[Dickieboy]

The bias isn't pro-Hoover, but pro small government conservatism. So coming out against President Hoover's allegedly pro-labor policy does not contradict the assertion of bias.

OH, pardon me. I must have mistook the statement 'Lee E. Ohanian | Papers...And yes, it's THAT HOOVER, the Herbert Hoover that was president from the bursting of the stock market bubble in 1929 to the bottom of the depression in 1932.' I interpreted the insinuation that Ohanian was bias to Hoover and not FDR. My post was to merely represent that Ohanian had presented work that blamed Hoover of making the GD 'three times worse' thus not being bias to HH.

 

[Donc]

Quote conservative

You make a lot of wild speculations yet never back them up.

Wasn’t speculation, just saying what I would do. As I said, the first thing I would do would be increase the tax on the top 1%,boost taxes on the Largest CORPS, not small corps and maybe hang a tax on stock transactions;this depends on the success of the first two taxes.:2wave:

If I determined that the multinationals were moving off shore to avoid the Corp tax I would put a tariff/lug, whatever on what they sold in this country.If that isn’t clear enough for you…

 

[1Perry]

Do you honestly believe that the money is there to repay those SS IOU's from the SS trust fund? where does the money come from that pays the interest on those securities?

This one is easy. Printing presses.

 

[1Perry]

Wasn’t speculation, just saying what I would do. As I said, the first thing I would do would be increase the tax on the top 1%,boost taxes on the Largest CORPS, not small corps and maybe hang a tax on stock transactions;this depends on the success of the first two taxes.:2wave:

If I determined that the multinationals were moving off shore to avoid the Corp tax I would put a tariff/lug, whatever on what they sold in this country.If that isn’t clear enough for you…

IMO we haven't found much to agree on but I believe this to be a very good starting point. Somewhere we would have to figure in the cuts.

 

[Donc]

IMO we haven't found much to agree on but I believe this to be a very good starting point. Somewhere we would have to figure in the cuts.

With two wars winding down shouldn't be to hard to find some cuts.

Edited to add. Might want to close a couple of bases in Europe that were put there to counter the Soviets during the cold war.Thatta save a ton of dough.