Catholics who dislike/disagree with the Pope

[Gatsby]

It seems like there are a lot of self-described Catholics who dislike the Pope, believe he has erred in matters of church message, or openly reject church doctrine. Right now it's mostly hardliners who think Pope Francis is too soft, but it applied equally to progressives who thought Pope Benedict was a thousand years behind the times.

As a non-Catholic, I don't really understand this mindset. Isn't the whole core of being a Catholic (as opposed to some other type of Christian) that you believe the Pope derives his authority directly from Jesus, who appointed St Peter and passed that authority all the way down to the current Pope? How is it even possible to be Catholic if you think the Pope (and by extension, Jesus) makes doctrinal mistakes? And isn't it rather presumptuous to think you understand your religion better than Jesus's hand-picked ambassador to humanity?

I'm not looking for a nasty argument, I just want to understand this perspective better.

 

[tshade]

It seems like there are a lot of self-described Catholics who dislike the Pope, believe he has erred in matters of church message, or openly reject church doctrine. Right now it's mostly hardliners who think Pope Francis is too soft, but it applied equally to progressives who thought Pope Benedict was a thousand years behind the times.

As a non-Catholic, I don't really understand this mindset. Isn't the whole core of being a Catholic (as opposed to some other type of Christian) that you believe the Pope derives his authority directly from Jesus, who appointed St Peter and passed that authority all the way down to the current Pope? How is it even possible to be Catholic if you think the Pope (and by extension, Jesus) makes doctrinal mistakes? And isn't it rather presumptuous to think you understand your religion better than Jesus's hand-picked ambassador to humanity?

I'm not looking for a nasty argument, I just want to understand this perspective better.

Pope is human---a vicar of Christ on Earth, but human. He is a guide, inspired guide for the church. It is the members of the church who are having the issues

 

[Elora]

I don't get it, either...why remain a member of any org. that goes against your beliefs? I would get out yesterday...

 

[devildavid]

I don't get it, either...why remain a member of any org. that goes against your beliefs? I would get out yesterday...

Your beliefs? You get your beliefs from them.

 

[Elora]

Your beliefs? You get your beliefs from them.

I do not...

 

[Josie]

It seems like there are a lot of self-described Catholics who dislike the Pope, believe he has erred in matters of church message, or openly reject church doctrine. Right now it's mostly hardliners who think Pope Francis is too soft, but it applied equally to progressives who thought Pope Benedict was a thousand years behind the times.

As a non-Catholic, I don't really understand this mindset. Isn't the whole core of being a Catholic (as opposed to some other type of Christian) that you believe the Pope derives his authority directly from Jesus, who appointed St Peter and passed that authority all the way down to the current Pope? How is it even possible to be Catholic if you think the Pope (and by extension, Jesus) makes doctrinal mistakes? And isn't it rather presumptuous to think you understand your religion better than Jesus's hand-picked ambassador to humanity?

I'm not looking for a nasty argument, I just want to understand this perspective better.

I've had these questions for years. There have been all sorts of problematic and even evil popes. It's pretty obvious to me that they aren't "divine" or "messengers of God" at all.

 

[devildavid]

I do not...

Yes, you do.

 

[Elora]

Yes, you do.

My beliefs come from the Bible, not some man made doctrine...there is no trinity in the Bible, no immortal soul, no hellfire...

 

[devildavid]

My beliefs come from the Bible, not some man made doctrine...there is no trinity in the Bible, no immortal soul, no hellfire...

No, your beliefs come from those who started your religion in the 1800's in the US. They tell you how to interpret the bible. For example, nowhere in the bible does god explicitly forbid celebrating birthdays. Only your particular religion believes that due to their reading into the bible something that is clearly not there.

 

[venice_ca]

The doctrine of papal infallibility applies when the pope speaks ex cathedra on matters of doctrine.

Given the many centuries of intrigue and skullduggery in Rome, objections and challenges to papal decisions, not all regarding tenets of the faith, have a long history. Perhaps much worse when the Church wielded temporal as well as spiritual power.

I used to wonder if this was a reflection of a facet of Italian character — making me wary of my extended family — but then decided concentration of power/absolute power attracts subterfuge by its very nature.

 

[Elora]

No, your beliefs come from those who started your religion in the 1800's in the US. They tell you how to interpret the bible. For example, nowhere in the bible does god explicitly forbid celebrating birthdays. Only your particular religion believes that due to their reading into the bible something that is clearly not there.

Yeah, we don't do pagan garbage...

 

[devildavid]

Yeah, we don't do pagan garbage...

Thanks for admitting I am correct. You get your beliefs from your religion, not directly from the bible. They tell you what they think the bible says. It says nothing about celebrating birthdays

 

[Elora]

Thanks for admitting I am correct. You get your beliefs from your religion, not directly from the bible. They tell you what they think the bible says. It says nothing about celebrating birthdays

No, I get my beliefs from the Bible, which directly condemns mixing Christian beliefs with pagan beliefs...there are only 2 birthday celebrations mentioned in the Bible and they are both pagan...

 

[devildavid]

No, I get my beliefs from the Bible, which directly condemns mixing Christian beliefs with pagan beliefs...

Nowhere in the bible does it condemn celebrating birthdays.

 

[devildavid]

No, I get my beliefs from the Bible, which directly condemns mixing Christian beliefs with pagan beliefs...there are only 2 birthday celebrations mentioned in the Bible and they are both pagan...

That doesn't mean that god condemns them.

 

[Elora]

Nowhere in the bible does it condemn celebrating birthdays.

Discernment is not your virtue...

Birthdays were first considered to be a pagan ritual in Christian culture.​

In Christianity, it is believed that all people are born with “original sin.” That, in combination with early birthdays being tied to pagan gods, led Christians to consider birthdays to be celebrations of evil. This lasted for the first few hundred years of the existence of the Christian Church.

It wasn’t until the 4th century that Christians abandoned that way of thinking and began celebrating the birth of Jesus, also know as Christmas. Celebrating the birth of Jesus was partly enacted to recruit those who already celebrated Saturnalia, the Roman holiday.
https://www.pumpitupparty.com/blog/how-did-the-tradition-of-birthdays-begin/

 

[devildavid]

Discernment is not your virtue...

Birthdays were first considered to be a pagan ritual in Christian culture.​

In Christianity, it is believed that all people are born with “original sin.” That, in combination with early birthdays being tied to pagan gods, led Christians to consider birthdays to be celebrations of evil. This lasted for the first few hundred years of the existence of the Christian Church.

It wasn’t until the 4th century that Christians abandoned that way of thinking and began celebrating the birth of Jesus, also know as Christmas. Celebrating the birth of Jesus was partly enacted to recruit those who already celebrated Saturnalia, the Roman holiday.
https://www.pumpitupparty.com/blog/how-did-the-tradition-of-birthdays-begin/

Nothing in the bible says that god condemns celebrating birthdays

 

[Elora]

Nothing in the bible says that god condemns celebrating birthdays

It's called the principle of the matter...something you evidently know nothing about...

 

[devildavid]

It's called the principle of the matter...something you evidently know nothing about...

You said you go by the bible. You don't. You go by what your religion tells you.

 

[Patriotic Voter]

I do not...

Yes you do. Your beliefs come from kingdom hall. Nothing else. They totally contradict the only true source of beliefs - Scripture itself.

 

[vegas giants]

My beliefs come from the Bible, not some man made doctrine...there is no trinity in the Bible, no immortal soul, no hellfire...

The bible is man made Doctrine

 

[BirdinHand]

It seems like there are a lot of self-described Catholics who dislike the Pope, believe he has erred in matters of church message, or openly reject church doctrine. Right now it's mostly hardliners who think Pope Francis is too soft, but it applied equally to progressives who thought Pope Benedict was a thousand years behind the times.

As a non-Catholic, I don't really understand this mindset. Isn't the whole core of being a Catholic (as opposed to some other type of Christian) that you believe the Pope derives his authority directly from Jesus, who appointed St Peter and passed that authority all the way down to the current Pope? How is it even possible to be Catholic if you think the Pope (and by extension, Jesus) makes doctrinal mistakes? And isn't it rather presumptuous to think you understand your religion better than Jesus's hand-picked ambassador to humanity?

I'm not looking for a nasty argument, I just want to understand this perspective better.

The Pope is not the equivalent of Jesus.

The Pope is the head of the Catholic Church - and the authority of the Pope over the Church is based on Jesus and his relationship with Peter.

It doesn’t mean that the Pope is the equivalent of Jesus. Or that the papacy through Jesus equates Peter (and popes) with Jesus.

I think you’ve misinterpreted that understanding.


Popes all have their own interpretations of the Bible and Catholic Canon Law. Just like other leaders, you can disagree with them. But their rules stand.

And Popes are voted on - there is no “lineage”. It’s an office - and the authority of that office from the church comes from the original relationship and promise.

 

[Patriotic Voter]

The bible is man made Doctrine

Her Bible is a man-made doctrine. Bibles that are used in most Protestant churches are God's Word.

 

[vegas giants]

Her Bible is a man-made doctrine. Bibles that are used in most Protestant churches are God's Word.

No. They are ALL a fictional book

 

[Patriotic Voter]

No. They are ALL a fictional book

Most Protestant Christian Bibles are 100% God's Word. Elora's Bible is a fiction book written only by men. She is not a Christian.