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Catholics angry as church puts female ordination on par with sex abuse

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RyrineaHaruno

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spud_meister

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jesus! (if you'll excuse my blasphemy) they're trying to take the church back to the dark ages, slowly they're undoing all the good john paul 2 did to help the churches image.
 

Thorgasm

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Maybe they are trying to convert Muslim women but don't want to seem too radical.

:lol:
 

Redress

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While I am not defending the church here, except to say they really can do things like this if they want as long as it is kept within the church(kinda like Sharia law), but this leaped out at me:

Terry Sanderson, president of the National Secular Society, called the document "one of the most insulting and misogynistic pronouncements that the Vatican has made for a very long time. Why any self-respecting woman would want to remain part of an organisation that regards their full and equal participation as a 'grave sin' is a mystery to me."
Any one else see a problem here?
 

Thorgasm

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While I am not defending the church here, except to say they really can do things like this if they want as long as it is kept within the church(kinda like Sharia law), but this leaped out at me:



Any one else see a problem here?
Terry is an ambiguous name? :lol:

Secular people can express an opinion about religious policy.
 

MaggieD

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Until the Pope has a conversation with God that changes the rule that only men can be priests, this is blasphemy. On par with pedophile prists...whom the Catholic church, as a whole, covered up for forever. Watch for the news alert!!

Ya' know all those people that went to hell for eating meat on a Friday and not getting to confession before they died? Well, this is kinda' like the same thing.

Give me a freakin' break.
 

Redress

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Terry is an ambiguous name? :lol:

Secular people can express an opinion about religious policy.
They can, yes. Is it generally a waste of time? Yes also. Catholic women choose to live by Catholic law. If they want to put up with bull**** like that, a noncatholic is probably not going to change their mind.
 

Goshin

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It's a Catholic matter, strictly internal to that church and having no effect outside of those who are voluntarily part of it, and I'm not Catholic.... so I don't much care.
 

Thorgasm

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They can, yes. Is it generally a waste of time? Yes also. Catholic women choose to live by Catholic law. If they want to put up with bull**** like that, a noncatholic is probably not going to change their mind.
Yes, it may be a waste of time, but it may prevent some women from converting.
 

Thorgasm

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It's a Catholic matter, strictly internal to that church and having no effect outside of those who are voluntarily part of it, and I'm not Catholic.... so I don't much care.
You are also a male. ;)
 

Thorgasm

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People are converting to catholicism?
I would imagine so. If you love someone who is Catholic you have to convert before you get married. This could actually get males to leave the church so they can marry their non-Catholic females.
 

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The Catholics are in the news again as the make it a sin woman who is ordinate. The woman who have been ordinate will be excommunicated, and not allowed back because the Vatican has made it a grave crime on Par with child abuse. :roll:
Well, first of all I think you're mistaken that these women will not be allowed back into the Church. That just isn't the case, any excommunicant can be readmitted to the Church provided there is sincere repentance. This entails that the excommunicant give up, in this case, the illicit ordination, any woman so ordained will be readmitted a part of the laity, just not as a priest. Also, I haven't read the revision to the norms, but I am given to understand that it is applicable only to the priest who performs the illicit ordination on the woman rather than the illicitly ordained woman herself. Could be wrong about that though.

Secondly, it's really mischaracterizing this addition to canon law to say that it puts female ordination "on par" with child abuse. Nothing of the sort is happening. The attempted ordination of women is a "grave delict" against the sacrament of ordination. I suspect that this is based on a mistranslations.

Catholic News Service said:
Pope John Paul's 2001 document distinguished between two types of "most grave crimes," those committed in the celebration of the sacraments and those committed against morals. Among the sacramental crimes were such things as desecration of the Eucharist and violation of the seal of confession.

Under the new revisions, the "attempted ordination of women" will be listed among those crimes, as a serious violation of the sacrament of holy orders, informed sources said. As such, it will be handled under the procedures set up for investigating "delicta graviora" under the control of the doctrinal congregation.
Catholic New Service
Child abuse is considered a "delictum gravius," literally a "more grave delict." Though I haven't been able to confirm this anywhere, I'm guessing attempted ordination of a woman is "delictum grave" only. But even if it is also "delictum gravius" it only reflects the seriousness of the sin as against the sacrament, not as a crime against morality.

Also, you have to keep in mind that the Church doesn't really have an interest in appeasing the slim segment of mostly European and American liberal Catholics who want to see female ordination. The Church works in geologic time, not in human lifetimes, so I see this as a reaffirmation of the stance on male-only ordination, in the wake of the Anglican decision to the contrary, to appease the vast swaths of conservatives in Africa and Latin America. But at the same time this could be a build up to a move toward allowing priests to marry, which is seen by many as the solution to both the child abuse crisis and the priest shortage.
 
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RyrineaHaruno

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Guy, I did read alright and they will not be let back because they don't consider it a sin. I just think this is not a misconfiguration of the text, since it will be considered a grave sin.
 

RyrineaHaruno

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While I am not defending the church here, except to say they really can do things like this if they want as long as it is kept within the church(kinda like Sharia law), but this leaped out at me:



Any one else see a problem here?
That a weird name for a female xd.

Actually, yes, quite a lot actually...
Actually your wrong it quite the opposite from the article

Data from countries in which church membership is officially registered suggest tens of thousands of Catholics, perhaps hundreds of thousands, have abandoned their faith in disgust.
 
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Guy Incognito

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I would imagine so. If you love someone who is Catholic you have to convert before you get married. This could actually get males to leave the church so they can marry their non-Catholic females.
That's not accurate, actually. A Catholic of either sex can marry a non-Catholic in a valid marriage, however it is considered "non-sacramental." It is still valid in almost every way, and it is for most practical purposes just a minor canon law distinction. A Catholic doesn't have to leave the Church to marry a non-Catholic.
 

ludahai

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I would imagine so. If you love someone who is Catholic you have to convert before you get married. This could actually get males to leave the church so they can marry their non-Catholic females.
Not true. Catholics can marry non-Catholics IN THE CHURCH!!!
 

Hatuey

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The title says one thing and the article says another, the Vatican made the ordination of women a grave offense in ecclesiastical law, that isn't saying much about what the decree made by the Vatican actually says. Either way I find this part of the article a lot more troubling:

Since scandals blew up in Germany in January, five Roman Catholic bishops have resigned as evidence has come to light of priests who raped or molested children, and of superiors who turned a blind eye to safeguard the reputation of the church. Data from countries in which church membership is officially registered suggest tens of thousands of Catholics, perhaps hundreds of thousands, have abandoned their faith in disgust.

Father Federico Lombardi, the pope's spokesman, stressed that the new rules on sex abuse applied solely to procedures for defrocking priests under canon law. They had no bearing on whether suspected offenders were notified to the civil authorities – he said bishops had already been reminded of their duty to do so.

The most important change is to extend the period during which a clergyman can be tried by a church court from 10 to 20 years, dating from the 18th birthday of his victim.
Many people who were abused by priests are unable to summon up the courage to come forward until well into adulthood.
...

The new norms also streamline the procedures for dealing with the most urgent and serious cases, enabling bishops to defrock priests without a long, costly trial.
They put abuse of the mentally disabled on a level with that of minors. And they introduce a new crime of paedophile pornography, defined as "the acquisition, possession or disclosure" by a clergyman of pornographic images of children below the age of 14.
The Catholic Church is digging a much deeper hole by making sure its clergy feels absolutely no real pressure in denouncing suspected pedophiles. The 'reminder' by Padre Lombardi is nothing more than a reminder of what they've already been doing, avoiding publicity at all costs and refusing to acknowledge a very real problem within the church.
 

Thorgasm

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That's not accurate, actually. A Catholic of either sex can marry a non-Catholic in a valid marriage, however it is considered "non-sacramental." It is still valid in almost every way, and it is for most practical purposes just a minor canon law distinction. A Catholic doesn't have to leave the Church to marry a non-Catholic.
And what does "non-sacramental" mean?
 

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Guy, I did read alright and they will not be let back because they don't consider it a sin. I just think this is not a misconfiguration of the text, since it will be considered a grave sin.
To your first point, I would say that that is up to the women and the priests who ordain them rather than the Church. Any repentant excommunicant will be readmitted, and non-penitant excommunicants will not be. I don't think it's accurate to say that they "will not be let back in" because they will be "let back in" provided they do what is required of them. I don't think it's any different that, say, a Catholic who becomes a Freemason. Such a person will be excommunicated automatically (assuming they are aware of the prohibition against Freemasonry), and can be readmitted only if they cease the practice of Freemasonry.

To your second point, it is not merely sin we can are talking about but the canon law concept of "delict," which are divided into "delictum grave" (grave), "delictum gravius" (more grave), and "delictum gravissimus" (gravest). Do you have a link to revision to the Norms? I haven't been able to turn it up. But at the very least there is a mistranslation of the standard of delict applied to child abuse, as it is not a "grave delict" but a "more grave delict."
 

digsbe

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This is one reason why I am a non-Catholic Christian. I think they have a lot of messed up ideology (no offense to Catholics).
 
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