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Category to Discuss Moderation Issues

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Xerographica

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There should really be a category where we can have completely transparent and frank discussion regarding the quality of moderation. It will allow us to give both positive and negative feedback on the efforts of moderators. It's important because transparency is really the best way to try and ensure that moderators do not abuse their power. Excessive moderation is far more harmful than insufficient moderation. If the moderators have nothing to hide then I'm sure that they will strongly support this suggestion.
 

CaptainCourtesy

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What, precisely, are you suggesting?
 

X Factor

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There should really be a category where we can have completely transparent and frank discussion regarding the quality of moderation. It will allow us to give both positive and negative feedback on the efforts of moderators. It's important because transparency is really the best way to try and ensure that moderators do not abuse their power. Excessive moderation is far more harmful than insufficient moderation. If the moderators have nothing to hide then I'm sure that they will strongly support this suggestion.
What are you suggesting that's not already accomplished by the "Where's My Binky" forum?
 

Xerographica

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What are you suggesting that's not already accomplished by the "Where's My Binky" forum?
1. This part..."2) Binky is NOT a place to legitimately air or resolve mod grievances. Use the Contact Us button." I'm suggesting a place to legitimately and transparently air mod grievances. It would allow others to easily chime in if they've been having the same issue. This will tap the collective intelligence to try and help determine where there might be patterns that need to be addressed.

2. And this part..."5) If you have a specific concern about a moderator. Use the "Contact Us" button. Thats what it is there for." The category I'm suggesting would allow you to share specific concerns about specific moderators.

2. And this part..."Where's My Binky". It should be called something like "Moderation Issues" that way it's easier and more intuitive to find.
 

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1. This part..."2) Binky is NOT a place to legitimately air or resolve mod grievances. Use the Contact Us button." I'm suggesting a place to legitimately and transparently air mod grievances. It would allow others to easily chime in if they've been having the same issue. This will tap the collective intelligence to try and help determine where there might be patterns that need to be addressed.

2. And this part..."5) If you have a specific concern about a moderator. Use the "Contact Us" button. Thats what it is there for." The category I'm suggesting would allow you to share specific concerns about specific moderators.

2. And this part..."Where's My Binky". It should be called something like "Moderation Issues" that way it's easier and more intuitive to find.
Huh, that's strange. In your OP, you claim it would be a place where good things could be said too. Now you just want a place to share "concerns" and "greviences". Honestly, what this looks like to me is that you got an infraction, warning or threadban, and rather than consider that it was actually because of something you did, you want to complain about the mods.
 

Xerographica

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Huh, that's strange. In your OP, you claim it would be a place where good things could be said too. Now you just want a place to share "concerns" and "greviences". Honestly, what this looks like to me is that you got an infraction, warning or threadban, and rather than consider that it was actually because of something you did, you want to complain about the mods.
Sure, maybe I'm in the wrong. It sure wouldn't be the first time. But if I'm in the wrong, then what does the mod have to hide? Why can't we publicly discuss the issue?

If I'm in the wrong then I'm sure others would chime in and come to the mod's defense. They would say great things about the mod. So there you go.

Rather than "Moderation Issues"...we could call it "Moderation Feedback". Either or. I just like transparency when it comes to things like power and control.
 

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Hi Xerographica,

Rather than me repeating something that has been stated previously, if you don't mind, i'm going to link you to a post by Zyphlin (one of our longest standing Moderators here) who answered this question the last time it was raised for discussion. Hope this helps.

You can discuss your infractoins in a civil and moderated fashion...through PM discussion with the mod in question and/or another mod.

You can even discuss your infraction in a civil and moderated fashion with other posters, through PM's.

However, the Mod team has discussed the notion of allowing discussion of infractions to happen in public upstairs a number of times and the concensus time and time and time again is simply...no.

Doing such a thing opens up a pit of trouble. It opens up the potential attempts for mob appeal as people turn infraction discussions into attempts to create mob support, as if popularity of the person or the opinion of the infraction is what determines the validity of it. It opens up a situation where there is a greater expectation that a Mod is going to actually give answers that frankly we're not going to give, or opens situations where we're having to fight a battle of public opinion without being able to be forthright with all the information that goes into our decision making. OR, if we are to be forthright, it means opening up the infraction history and mod precedence of multiple posters at times against their desires. It creates a bog down of time for the mods as people attempt to utilize such a forum to attempt to treat the rules here as if it is some legal doctrine that they can battle in a court of law like they're a lawyer on Law and Order.

Simply put, the Mod Team has taken many steps over the years to attempt to address the understood desire of the forum population to have further transparency while at the same time balancing it against the necessity for member privacy, moderator time investment, and the method of moderation on this forum. Previously there was no place to even speak about infractions openly and in response to demands for that a compromise was made with regards to the Binky forum. Previously members felt that their disputes on infractions were being ignored or going unheard...in response to those demands we've provided a method to be sure all mods see a dispute and to make sure everyone gets a response of some kind on the matter. Previously the thought was that mods were too quick to close Suggestion posts that mildly touched on infractions or mod action in the suggestion forums...we've since allowed a large number of threads to go forward in the suggestion forum for numerous pages with borderline 6a voilations running through them before finally closing once they got too far out of hand.

We have compromised a number of times to attempt to provide further transperancy, but at this point there is little further compromising we will do especially when the starting point people use for their demands of compromise is at our already compromised position. We have discussed the matter of an upstairs "6a exempt" forum numerous times but, while we appreciate the feedback, I can almost assuredly tell you we will not be adding such a thing anytime in the near future.
 

ttwtt78640

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Sure, maybe I'm in the wrong. It sure wouldn't be the first time. But if I'm in the wrong, then what does the mod have to hide? Why can't we publicly discuss the issue?

If I'm in the wrong then I'm sure others would chime in and come to the mod's defense. They would say great things about the mod. So there you go.

Rather than "Moderation Issues"...we could call it "Moderation Feedback". Either or. I just like transparency when it comes to things like power and control.
I assume that the moderators are deemed satisfactory to most on the Debate Politics forum and the rules/features are sufficient as well. I base this on the rarity of posts such as this. Are you sure that you are not simply seeking confirmation bias for your opinion? If you don't like the moderator's decision made about your post(s) you will only argue with those that disagree with you and praise those that agree with you.

A moderator's decision is based on their interpretaion of the forum rules and is final, much like a SCOTUS decision. There is neither any level of appeal nor need there be. Since the power of moderation can at most remove your privilege to post here, I really see no point in them offering those that wish to complain a playpen in which to do so.
 

Xerographica

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I assume that the moderators are deemed satisfactory to most on the Debate Politics forum and the rules/features are sufficient as well.
It's just an assumption. That's the problem with a lack of transparency. Everybody assumes that things are perfectly fine because somehow the evidence to the contrary is nowhere to be found.

If the category was created...and it received few threads...then there certainly wasn't any harm in creating the category. Everybody would be able to see that most people are happy with the mods. If it ended up with quite a few threads...then your assumption was wrong and it's a good thing that the category was created.

But it's really kinda absurd to assume that moderators don't make mistakes. Everybody makes mistakes. Everybody is biased. Nobody is a perfect angel. Everybody has the potential to abuse power. Therefore, transparency.
 

spud_meister

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Why do disputed with a mods decision have to be public? What does the forum gain from that?
 

spud_meister

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But it's really kinda absurd to assume that moderators don't make mistakes. Everybody makes mistakes. Everybody is biased. Nobody is a perfect angel. Everybody has the potential to abuse power. Therefore, transparency.
All that can be expressed in Binky. There's nothing in the rules saying you can't dispute an infraction privately, and then discuss the outcome in Binky.
 

ttwtt78640

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It's just an assumption. That's the problem with a lack of transparency. Everybody assumes that things are perfectly fine because somehow the evidence to the contrary is nowhere to be found.

If the category was created...and it received few threads...then there certainly wasn't any harm in creating the category. Everybody would be able to see that most people are happy with the mods. If it ended up with quite a few threads...then your assumption was wrong and it's a good thing that the category was created.

But it's really kinda absurd to assume that moderators don't make mistakes. Everybody makes mistakes. Everybody is biased. Nobody is a perfect angel. Everybody has the potential to abuse power. Therefore, transparency.
Ok, I completely "get it" that you are upset with a mod's decision and wish to get confirmation for that feeling. The bottom line, however, is that discussing that, even while getting lots of confirmation, changes nothing. Obviously those that get lots of infractions/warnings feel that their freedom is being diminished, and perhps it is, but that is not going to "trump" the forum rules or likely even change their application.

The serenity prayer comes to mind here:

God grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change;
courage to change the things I can;
and wisdom to know the difference.

That is all that I have to say on this subject.
 

Xerographica

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Ok, I completely "get it" that you are upset with a mod's decision and wish to get confirmation for that feeling. The bottom line, however, is that discussing that, even while getting lots of confirmation, changes nothing. Obviously those that get lots of infractions/warnings feel that their freedom is being diminished, and perhps it is, but that is not going to "trump" the forum rules or likely even change their application.
When I was in China I taught about transparency. I remember they said that they didn't need transparency because everything was fine there. So I completely get that it's not an easy concept for some people to grasp.
 

davidtaylorjr

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I assume that the moderators are deemed satisfactory to most on the Debate Politics forum and the rules/features are sufficient as well. I base this on the rarity of posts such as this. Are you sure that you are not simply seeking confirmation bias for your opinion? If you don't like the moderator's decision made about your post(s) you will only argue with those that disagree with you and praise those that agree with you.

A moderator's decision is based on their interpretaion of the forum rules and is final, much like a SCOTUS decision. There is neither any level of appeal nor need there be. Since the power of moderation can at most remove your privilege to post here, I really see no point in them offering those that wish to complain a playpen in which to do so.
Actually you can appeal. I received an infraction a while back due to a mod mis-interpretation of a post, the infraction was reveresed after the mod team reviewed the posts and the context. They have a hard job as there is a lot of personality around here, but they do good by us.
 

MaggieD

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There should really be a category where we can have completely transparent and frank discussion regarding the quality of moderation. It will allow us to give both positive and negative feedback on the efforts of moderators. It's important because transparency is really the best way to try and ensure that moderators do not abuse their power. Excessive moderation is far more harmful than insufficient moderation. If the moderators have nothing to hide then I'm sure that they will strongly support this suggestion.
Most everyone who's spent any time on DP has gotten infractions they disagree with. I think most of us chalk it up to, "Well, I've deserved a number of infractions I never got, too." There's Binky. That's enough.

Moderation is subjective. Moderation is thankless. And plus it's a grossly underpaid position.
 

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It's just an assumption. That's the problem with a lack of transparency. Everybody assumes that things are perfectly fine because somehow the evidence to the contrary is nowhere to be found.

If the category was created...and it received few threads...then there certainly wasn't any harm in creating the category. Everybody would be able to see that most people are happy with the mods. If it ended up with quite a few threads...then your assumption was wrong and it's a good thing that the category was created.

But it's really kinda absurd to assume that moderators don't make mistakes. Everybody makes mistakes. Everybody is biased. Nobody is a perfect angel. Everybody has the potential to abuse power. Therefore, transparency.
If you want perfection, the Internet is the wrong place for you. If you feel an infraction was made by mistake, you can appeal it. If you want to complain about your grossly unfair treatment at the hands of the mods, there's Binky for that. I'm sure a "Moderation Issues" forum would get plenty of action but it would mainly be by the same people that want to complain about everything. In my opinion, the continued growth of DP and the fact that the chronic complainers are on here at all speaks more about the quality of moderation here than anything else.
 

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Moderator's Warning:
Closing this one down before someone hurts themselves. You know where to go if you want to discuss moderation and it isn't in the feedback forum.
 
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