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'Caste' India

junno

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Please inform me if I have broken any rules by starting a similar thread in another section - I don't think it belonged there. Apparently, its an international issue completely ignored by us, the United Nations and any other world body. It seems there is an 'Untouchable' class of people in India called 'Dalits'. These folks are in population as large as the population of United States, They are none better than slaves who could not mix with the higher class of Indians.

What holy crap is this in the 21st century when we have worked and are working to end various opressive regimes, secure our interests and spreading freedom, influencing reforms etc. What have we done to influence India to end this culture of caste system found no where in the world.

Imagine, we go back to our history of color separation? Can you even imagine that? Thats what going on in India and we have not even told them or aware them. We are pouring our dollars, losing our jobs to cheap labor and W and Condi can't even say to them - Hey get some reforms on the table or we are out.

http://www.ambedkar.org/News/Cssacndzsm.htm
 

junno

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FYI, definition of 'Caste':

"Any of the hereditary, endogamous social classes or subclasses of traditional Hindu society, stratified according to Hindu ritual purity, especially the Brahman, Kshatriya, Vaisya, and Sudra castes."
 

teacher

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You are correct about India of course. I know these things and have known them for decades. The caste system was taught in high school. I have no doubt at high level meetings this subject is brought up. But to your question as why more is not done about this? Follow the money. Figure it out for yourself.
 

junno

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Seriously, if we want, we can influence them to reform. The United States can decrease their import quotas for example and expect changes. The commonwealth nations can do the same. Somebody has to speak up for these poor folks. If we pour money into this country at our expense and then what we get is not even an end to this inhuman culture - its not American values.

But, it seems our succesive governments and corporations are ignorant of the discrimination of Dalits as far as we have cheap customer support and have our software work done there.
 

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junno said:
Seriously, if we want, we can influence them to reform. The United States can decrease their import quotas for example and expect changes.
But that will make some goods and services cost a few pennies more.
The commonwealth nations can do the same.
Britian maybe. the rest? look what influenced their Iraq stance. Money, not right and wrong.
Somebody has to speak up for these poor folks.
The left will tell you India is a soverign nation and we have no right.
If we pour money into this country at our expense and then what we get is not even an end to this inhuman culture - its not American values.
But to do something about it makes our software cost pennies more.
But, it seems our succesive governments and corporations are ignorant of the discrimination of Dalits
They know exactly what the deal is.
as far as we have cheap customer support and have our software work done there.
It is that simple.

Nobody will care unless the Indians fly some planes into buildings. You will find very few on this site who back the US using it's economic or military might to enact change elseware in the world for the only reason being it's the moral thing to do.
 

nkgupta80

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Please inform me if I have broken any rules by starting a similar thread in another section - I don't think it belonged there. Apparently, its an international issue completely ignored by us, the United Nations and any other world body. It seems there is an 'Untouchable' class of people in India called 'Dalits'. These folks are in population as large as the population of United States, They are none better than slaves who could not mix with the higher class of Indians.

What holy crap is this in the 21st century when we have worked and are working to end various opressive regimes, secure our interests and spreading freedom, influencing reforms etc. What have we done to influence India to end this culture of caste system found no where in the world.

Imagine, we go back to our history of color separation? Can you even imagine that? Thats what going on in India and we have not even told them or aware them. We are pouring our dollars, losing our jobs to cheap labor and W and Condi can't even say to them - Hey get some reforms on the table or we are out.


well a lot has been done...first of all the caste system has been formally abolished by the government for quite some time now. Affirmative action has been put into place to rid the discrimination, most state sponsored schools teach against this form. Of course you will find a TON of poverty and consequently a lot of discrimination in various parts of India. But as India modernizes, such practicises are looked down upon by the younger generations. It isn't as big of a problem as it is put out to be.

A greater problem, if anything, is the corruption in indian state governments, and general poverty in India.
 

junno

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nkgupta80 said:
well a lot has been done...first of all the caste system has been formally abolished by the government for quite some time now. Affirmative action has been put into place to rid the discrimination, most state sponsored schools teach against this form. Of course you will find a TON of poverty and consequently a lot of discrimination in various parts of India. But as India modernizes, such practicises are looked down upon by the younger generations. It isn't as big of a problem as it is put out to be.

A greater problem, if anything, is the corruption in indian state governments, and general poverty in India.

Hey, in whatever news site I check and according to the author of the article at the top, the reforms are ceremonial and the culture has not changed a bit. These poor folks don't have access to basic living and justice is not in their reach. Check out this site:

http://www.dalits.org/

It tells many such realities and if you just hit a link, you can see just recently a house was burnt of a poor guy. This is just ridiculous. In the US, we strive for a change until we get it. What the heck is happening in India I am just so astonished. I all cared about India was it does our work and there are pretty girls around in India:), but I am so shocked at all these realities. I am sorry, I just need to get hold of this Indian guy at my comp to get more of it.
 

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teacher said:
But that will make some goods and services cost a few pennies more.

Britian maybe. the rest? look what influenced their Iraq stance. Money, not right and wrong.

The left will tell you India is a soverign nation and we have no right.

But to do something about it makes our software cost pennies more.

They know exactly what the deal is.

It is that simple.

Nobody will care unless the Indians fly some planes into buildings. You will find very few on this site who back the US using it's economic or military might to enact change elseware in the world for the only reason being it's the moral thing to do.

But the Serbs did not fly a plane into our buildings - we took care of them. The South Africans did not flew a plane into our buildings - we strived for an end to aparthied there. Didn't we? We support changes in remote places of the world like Sudan - hey where is that country??

My point is - few charms can't change ground realities. If there is injustice somewhere and we are even indirectly related to the injustice - we need to 'stop'. Re-think, and get our point across, expect a change and if not - get out. Plain and simple. I don't care corporations earning that extra penny. Hey, I won't buy that new Ford model because there now 'can' be a new Ford model - cheap parts made in some opressive regime but costing the corporation few less dimes. And, they ain't selling me anything cheap anyways!
 

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junno said:
Hey, in whatever news site I check and according to the author of the article at the top, the reforms are ceremonial and the culture has not changed a bit. These poor folks don't have access to basic living and justice is not in their reach. Check out this site:

http://www.dalits.org/

It tells many such realities and if you just hit a link, you can see just recently a house was burnt of a poor guy. This is just ridiculous. In the US, we strive for a change until we get it. What the heck is happening in India I am just so astonished. I all cared about India was it does our work and there are pretty girls around in India:), but I am so shocked at all these realities. I am sorry, I just need to get hold of this Indian guy at my comp to get more of it.



sure its a land of 1 billion people. 600,000,000 of whom are starving. India's got a host of problems to settle. They're not a freakin rich country like the US. The government like i said has taken action. Yes tehre is corruption in local governments where the caste system is still favored. Change comes partly when poverty is reduced and people can finally stick their heads outta the gutters.

Again, like i said, the modern generations look down on these practicies. And as for the burnings and so on, you are gonna easily find extreme cases. I am sure we had a lot of gruesome lynchings in the 60s and before during hte civil rights movements. Imagine how hard change can be when we're deealing with a poveryt strick region where all people can hold on to is there beliefs (no matter how crazy they may sound).

As for the reforms being ceremonial, thats complete bull. Affirmative action for examples is not a ceremonial reform. Its gotten a lot of former untouchables into college to get an educaiton. Of course there are many regions where the local governments are corrupt or have little power over the people. Thus change in those regions will come slowly.
 

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nkgupta80 said:
sure its a land of 1 billion people. 600,000,000 of whom are starving. India's got a host of problems to settle. They're not a freakin rich country like the US. The government like i said has taken action. Yes tehre is corruption in local governments where the caste system is still favored. Change comes partly when poverty is reduced and people can finally stick their heads outta the gutters.

Again, like i said, the modern generations look down on these practicies. And as for the burnings and so on, you are gonna easily find extreme cases. I am sure we had a lot of gruesome lynchings in the 60s and before during hte civil rights movements. Imagine how hard change can be when we're deealing with a poveryt strick region where all people can hold on to is there beliefs (no matter how crazy they may sound).

As for the reforms being ceremonial, thats complete bull. Affirmative action for examples is not a ceremonial reform. Its gotten a lot of former untouchables into college to get an educaiton. Of course there are many regions where the local governments are corrupt or have little power over the people. Thus change in those regions will come slowly.

I don't buy you explanation. Mainly for the reason that while you say that corruption persists in India, you seem to also require that we invest in India the way we are doing not expecting a change. Hey, this will only feed the corrupt - as its has been happening since the 90's. I just happen to study India little more. You've got like two three cities where we are pouring dollars. Unfortunately, money the private sector and government is earning is not making an changes to these poor folks i.e. Dalits. BTW, we ain't got all the money in the world for people who can't bring a basic change in their lives. I.e. think above color. My God, if this happens in the US, we'll have civil war.

I think you are too casual about the concerns of Dalits as long as we are pouring the dollars. We need to hold our buckets, then I am sure there will be some alarm bells ringing in your elite 'caste'

Probably, the reason is that the key players in your country are from high caste and we need to sticken' up.
 

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junno said:
I don't buy you explanation. Mainly for the reason that while you say that corruption persists in India, you seem to also require that we invest in India the way we are doing not expecting a change. Hey, this will only feed the corrupt - as its has been happening since the 90's. I just happen to study India little more. You've got like two three cities where we are pouring dollars. Unfortunately, money the private sector and government is earning is not making an changes to these poor folks i.e. Dalits. BTW, we ain't got all the money in the world for people who can't bring a basic change in their lives. I.e. think above color. My God, if this happens in the US, we'll have civil war.

I think you are too casual about the concerns of Dalits as long as we are pouring the dollars. We need to hold our buckets, then I am sure there will be some alarm bells ringing in your elite 'caste'

Probably, the reason is that the key players in your country are from high caste and we need to sticken' up.

what you don't seem to understand is that alarm bells are ringing in INdia. We ARE aware. change is hard because of corruption, poverty, etc. But change is happening. There are tons of civil rights groups in India fighting against caste-ism and social discrimination.

I hardly think that US investments in India's IT sector help solidify the discrimination against dalits. Rather, the growth of India's economy has helped the growth of the middle class, thus lessening caste tensions and discrimination. If you read the sources, most of this discrimination occurs in the poorer country sides NOT in the metropolitan areas or the healthy, progressive states.

So to summarize, Change is happening in INdia, and yes the US should be aware of the problems India but that doesn't mean they should stop investing in the country's markets.
 

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nkgupta80 said:
what you don't seem to understand is that alarm bells are ringing in INdia. We ARE aware. change is hard because of corruption, poverty, etc. But change is happening. There are tons of civil rights groups in India fighting against caste-ism and social discrimination.

I hardly think that US investments in India's IT sector help solidify the discrimination against dalits. Rather, the growth of India's economy has helped the growth of the middle class, thus lessening caste tensions and discrimination. If you read the sources, most of this discrimination occurs in the poorer country sides NOT in the metropolitan areas or the healthy, progressive states.

So to summarize, Change is happening in INdia, and yes the US should be aware of the problems India but that doesn't mean they should stop investing in the country's markets.

I didn't say stop investing. I said we need to expect a change - a radical change - not cosmetics. How many elected Dalits have been India's Prime Minister or held any key ministeral post? I guess you had a Dalit President but your President is a ceremonial post selected by the government and currently you have a professor as President. Why are the Dalits still shouting aloud of discrimination?

Just last year, few folks got burned alive. I call this Nazism, what do you call it?

Sorry Bro, I don't see a major cultural change reflecting in Indian society - after lot of research of the internet. When there is smoke, there is fire - its just that we Americans are unaware of the fire because we don't, can't or maybe not allowed to see the smoke here.
 

nkgupta80

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junno said:
I didn't say stop investing. I said we need to expect a change - a radical change - not cosmetics. How many elected Dalits have been India's Prime Minister or held any key ministeral post? I guess you had a Dalit President but your President is a ceremonial post selected by the government and currently you have a professor as President. Why are the Dalits still shouting aloud of discrimination?

Just last year, few folks got burned alive. I call this Nazism, what do you call it?

i call it gruesome too, its called crime. It needs ot be stopped. You still find gruesome lynchings or stories of crazy fanatical killings in America. Is that nazism? Not really..

Now cut back to a country of 1.2 billion, a quarter of whom rae below the poverty line. Are you sure change is gonna come quickly? You can't just look into a country, realize its problems, and shout out damn there needs to be a radical change.

Sorry Bro, I don't see a major cultural change reflecting in Indian society - after lot of research of the internet. When there is smoke, there is fire - its just that we Americans are unaware of the fire because we don't, can't or maybe not allowed to see the smoke here.

again, i say change is hard. I didn't say it can't be done. It can be accomplished, and people are trying. There ARE people in the government who realize this. We need to strike change in the social mindset of people. But how is that accomplished? America had the media, and a very well-off population. Most of the places dalits live in are agricultural areas where the communities have no access to tvs or radios. So... it comes slowly.



How many elected Dalits have been India's Prime Minister or held any key ministeral post? I guess you had a Dalit President but your President is a ceremonial post selected by the government and currently you have a professor as President.

see... you have such littl eunderstanding of indian government... so how can I take anything else you say seriosuly. If you get this information all the sites you found in ur "research" then those sites are pretty craappy.

So what if a Dalit primeminister hasn't been elected. HAs any poor black guy been elected in the US? Hell has any woman even been elected as president in the US? A Woman has in INdia.... twice. The second time it was a chritsian woman who won by popular vote. Man indian society must be nazi....

You are right in that the president is a ceremonial post... much like the queen of england. The true power lies in the PRIME MINISTER, who currently is dr. manmohan singh. YEs he was an economics professor. Whats wrong with that... much better than a failed yale student and failed businessman running our country.
 
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