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Capitol Police officer Brian D. Sicknick suffered two strokes and died of natural causes

Fire extinguishers were used as weapons, just not against him. This was corrected once it was discovered that the mistake was made. The bear spray was present, and they have them saying they were going to use it. There was a path to the bear spray, it just turned out there is no evidence they used the bear spray rather than the regular pepper spray, and again, that was corrected when further info was found out. This is not "lying". It was making assumptions about an event with the info they had.

And, once again, someone can die from natural causes, a stroke or heart attack, and it still be caused by stressful events, such as responding to hundreds of people illegally storming Congress and/or being sprayed with pepper spray, even if they had previous experience with pepper spray for training.
They said early, and for some period of time that he was killed with a fire extinguisher. This even made it into the impeachment memorandum. They didn't correct anything, but just kind of dropped it. They still refused to release the physical findings of the autopsy for months.

They kept leaking and discussing bear spray - which wasn't used. They even used the term 'unknown substance'. They were being intentionally misleading - lying.

I understand that someone can die from natural causes following a stressful event. Not the same as murder.
 
They said early, and for some period of time that he was killed with a fire extinguisher. This even made it into the impeachment memorandum. They didn't correct anything, but just kind of dropped it. They still refused to release the physical findings of the autopsy for months.

They kept leaking and discussing bear spray - which wasn't used. They even used the term 'unknown substance'. They were being intentionally misleading - lying.

I understand that someone can die from natural causes following a stressful event. Not the same as murder.
Again, they did correct mistakes that were made in reporting the incident regarding the fire extinguisher and then later the bear spray, both of which were explained to you. They were not lying, but misinformed or making wrong assumptions.

Felony murder exists. This wasn't merely a "stressful event" though. It was a felony, a crime, committed by many, many people.
 
No. I'm providing plenty of evidence that most likely he died because of stress induced and/or pepper spray induced strokes. Had the events of 1/6 not occurred, he would likely not have died.

The bear spray was almost always reported as him having a stroke from it, not some other reaction to it. But that is possible with regular pepper spray as well, which he was sprayed with.
Other than the timing, what is the "plenty of evidence".
 
I haven't made a claim about a pre-existing condition. Are you speculating my position now too? I'm simply quoting the medical examiner who actually conducted the investigation.
No, you didn't but others did say that about him likely having preexisting conditions.

You are speculating on what caused the stroke by not accepting that it could have been caused by the events that occurred, the illegal storming of the Capitol that he was trying to take action (as part of his job) against. And felony murder has been found to legally place responsibility for a death by natural causes on someone/multiple someones committing a felony.
 
Again, they did correct mistakes that were made in reporting the incident regarding the fire extinguisher and then later the bear spray, both of which were explained to you. They were not lying, but misinformed or making wrong assumptions.

Felony murder exists. This wasn't merely a "stressful event" though. It was a felony, a crime, committed by many, many people.
No, they didn't "correct mistakes". They let the fire extinguisher narrative sit. And especially with regard to the bear spray - that JUST came out at a hearing for the two accused of spraying the officer. It's lying.

Again, I understand that "felony murder exists" - it doesn't apply to this situation.
 
Other than the timing, what is the "plenty of evidence".
That he was an officer, that there was a highly stressful event taking place, he was sprayed with pepper spray.

Where is the evidence of any felony murder cases where the person died of a heart attack or stroke during or after a felony they were a victim of or even involved in being committed?
 
No, they didn't "correct mistakes". They let the fire extinguisher narrative sit. And especially with regard to the bear spray - that JUST came out at a hearing for the two accused of spraying the officer. It's lying.

Again, I understand that "felony murder exists" - it doesn't apply to this situation.
Here is an example of how and why information changes with new info, but is not lying when people are making claims that they simply believe from the info they do have at that time.


And by Feb 2nd, CNN was reporting that there were mistakes made in the first reporting on this.


Reports not being perfect does not mean that people lied in their reporting.

It could easily apply here except that the public would likely consider it unreasonable to push the full extent of that responsibility onto all those who participated in this event. That doesn't mean that the event itself and some participants were not responsible for his death.

Even Officer Sicknick's brother stated he collapsed in the Capitol and had to be resuscitated with CPR, indicating that the cause was likely dealing with what was going on at the Capitol.


“He texted me last night and said, ‘I got pepper-sprayed twice,’ and he was in good shape,” Ken Sicknick said. “Apparently he collapsed in the Capitol and they resuscitated him using CPR.”
 
That he was an officer, that there was a highly stressful event taking place, he was sprayed with pepper spray.

Where is the evidence of any felony murder cases where the person died of a heart attack or stroke during or after a felony they were a victim of or even involved in being committed?
So... timing. It's a reasonable assumption to believe that the stress of the incident may have led to the strokes. Not the same as evidence.
 
So... timing. It's a reasonable assumption to believe that the stress of the incident may have led to the strokes. Not the same as evidence.
If the reasonable assumption can be made, then that would be evidence. Just like we have plenty of evidence that if someone has influenza and dies, their death is likely due to influenza unless they died of something like a gunshot wound or other thing more easily identified. We count such a death as a flu death.
 
No, you didn't but others did say that about him likely having preexisting conditions.
You should attribute your comments to "others." The medical examiner determined that a medical condition alone contributed to Sicknick's death. There was no evidence of chemical irritants and there was no evidence of internal or external injuries.

You are speculating on what caused the stroke by not accepting that it could have been caused by the events that occurred, the illegal storming of the Capitol that he was trying to take action (as part of his job) against. And felony murder has been found to legally place responsibility for a death by natural causes on someone/multiple someones committing a felony.
This is the most backwards logic I've read all day. Unless I subscribe to your conspiracy theory I'm "speculating?" I don't know what caused his death and neither do you. You're free to speculate all you want, but let's be honest that it is speculation. Stop saying you have evidence he died of stress. You don't. I'm factually correct in pointing this out to you and do not need to subscribe to your conspiracy theory to be free from "speculating" on how he died. I've given no determination other than the stroke which is a direct quote from the medical experts who did a forensic analysis on his body.
 
Here is an example of how and why information changes with new info, but is not lying when people are making claims that they simply believe from the info they do have at that time.


And by Feb 2nd, CNN was reporting that there were mistakes made in the first reporting on this.


Reports not being perfect does not mean that people lied in their reporting.

It could easily apply here except that the public would likely consider it unreasonable to push the full extent of that responsibility onto all those who participated in this event. That doesn't mean that the event itself and some participants were not responsible for his death.

Even Officer Sicknick's brother stated he collapsed in the Capitol and had to be resuscitated with CPR, indicating that the cause was likely dealing with what was going on at the Capitol.


“He texted me last night and said, ‘I got pepper-sprayed twice,’ and he was in good shape,” Ken Sicknick said. “Apparently he collapsed in the Capitol and they resuscitated him using CPR.”
Those articles only support what I said. The government/investigators continued to let those items hang out there, even after they knew they were false. CNN made the update based on conflicting information being leaked out. Investigators knew it wasn't a fire extinguisher at the time, and knew that it wasn't bear spray long ago.
 
Here is an example of how and why information changes with new info, but is not lying when people are making claims that they simply believe from the info they do have at that time.


And by Feb 2nd, CNN was reporting that there were mistakes made in the first reporting on this.


Reports not being perfect does not mean that people lied in their reporting.

It could easily apply here except that the public would likely consider it unreasonable to push the full extent of that responsibility onto all those who participated in this event. That doesn't mean that the event itself and some participants were not responsible for his death.

Even Officer Sicknick's brother stated he collapsed in the Capitol and had to be resuscitated with CPR, indicating that the cause was likely dealing with what was going on at the Capitol.


“He texted me last night and said, ‘I got pepper-sprayed twice,’ and he was in good shape,” Ken Sicknick said. “Apparently he collapsed in the Capitol and they resuscitated him using CPR.”
The NY Times had an unnamed source who they claim said he died from injuries sustained from being beaten with a fire extinguisher. There was never any evidence of this. Most everyone else cited the NY Times. The family knew he died of a stroke and publicly said so. The NY Times waited until after the impeachment (of which their story was key "evidence") to correct the record.
 
If the reasonable assumption can be made, then that would be evidence. Just like we have plenty of evidence that if someone has influenza and dies, their death is likely due to influenza unless they died of something like a gunshot wound or other thing more easily identified. We count such a death as a flu death.
That's not evidence. It's speculation. It's also a bad analogy.

The flu information is wrong. They normally list the cause of death, but include flu as a contributing factor. Government reporting bundles up flu related deaths.
 
You should attribute your comments to "others." The medical examiner determined that a medical condition alone contributed to Sicknick's death. There was no evidence of chemical irritants and there was no evidence of internal or external injuries.


This is the most backwards logic I've read all day. Unless I subscribe to your conspiracy theory I'm "speculating?" I don't know what caused his death and neither do you. You're free to speculate all you want, but let's be honest that it is speculation. Stop saying you have evidence he died of stress. You don't. I'm factually correct in pointing this out to you and do not need to subscribe to your conspiracy theory to be free from "speculating" on how he died. I've given no determination other than the stroke which is a direct quote from the medical experts who did a forensic analysis on his body.
There is plenty of evidence he was sprayed with pepper spray, which can cause a stroke without evidence of "chemical irritants" actually being part of that.

There is evidence that strokes can be caused by stress, from the past. There is plenty of evidence that he was involved in a highly stressful situation on the day that he had at least the first stroke. Since we have held in the past that someone responsible for a felony situation that causes stress that could "potentially" cause a heart attack or stroke can be held responsible for their death, then that is evidence that those involved in the storming of the Capitol can be held in some way responsible for the stress that likely caused his death.
 
That's not evidence. It's speculation. It's also a bad analogy.

The flu information is wrong. They normally list the cause of death, but include flu as a contributing factor. Government reporting bundles up flu related deaths.
Because cause of death is supposed to be what medically caused the death, loss of blood, heart stopped, that sort of thing, not the other factors such as cancer or illness, including flu, or other things that cause the condition to lead to death. Does the flu kill people?
 
Because cause of death is supposed to be what medically caused the death, loss of blood, heart stopped, that sort of thing, not the other factors such as cancer or illness, including flu, or other things that cause the condition to lead to death. Does the flu kill people?
You are off target.

No, normally the flu does not kill people. People normally die from an associated infection, like pneumonia, or an underlying chronic condition which is worsened by the flu (like COPD or Chronic Heart Failure (CHF).
 
You are off target.

No, normally the flu does not kill people. People normally die from an associated infection, like pneumonia, or an underlying chronic condition which is worsened by the flu (like COPD or Chronic Heart Failure (CHF).
But if they had not gotten the flu, they would not have got the associated infection, so therefore would not have died. This is like trying to argue people don't die of HIV/AIDS because that is technically true since it is always a fact that pneumonia or cancer or some other infection kills people with AIDS. However, if they had not contracted HIV, then they would not have developed AIDS, and would have almost certainly been able to fight off that infection or not been infected at all with that other "thing" that killed them.
 
But if they had not gotten the flu, they would not have got the associated infection, so therefore would not have died. This is like trying to argue people don't die of HIV/AIDS because that is technically true since it is always a fact that pneumonia or cancer or some other infection kills people with AIDS. However, if they had not contracted HIV, then they would not have developed AIDS, and would have almost certainly been able to fight off that infection or not been infected at all with that other "thing" that killed them.
You are trying to argue two different things. In any case, the analogy doesn't apply here.
 
There is plenty of evidence he was sprayed with pepper spray, which can cause a stroke without evidence of "chemical irritants" actually being part of that.

There is evidence that strokes can be caused by stress, from the past. There is plenty of evidence that he was involved in a highly stressful situation on the day that he had at least the first stroke. Since we have held in the past that someone responsible for a felony situation that causes stress that could "potentially" cause a heart attack or stroke can be held responsible for their death, then that is evidence that those involved in the storming of the Capitol can be held in some way responsible for the stress that likely caused his death.

There's no reason to believe anyone will be charged with his death.
 
No, they didn't "correct mistakes". They let the fire extinguisher narrative sit. And especially with regard to the bear spray - that JUST came out at a hearing for the two accused of spraying the officer. It's lying.

Again, I understand that "felony murder exists" - it doesn't apply to this situation.
It's a well-known persuasion tactic called "anchoring"

The anchoring effect is a cognitive bias whereby an individual's decisions are influenced by a particular reference point or 'anchor'.[1] Once the value of the anchor is set, subsequent arguments, estimates, etc. made by an individual may change from what they would have otherwise been without the anchor.

In this case, some people are biased to believe the officer was murdered. Even when the evidence underlying that claim is pulled away, the belief persists.
 
It wasn't the media - it was the government. They promoted the fire extinguisher narrative, when none was involved. They delayed autopsy results for months, when they knew the physical findings. They kept misleading that it was bear spray - even calling it an 'unknown substance'. CNN reported the bear spay issue was just released in a hearing for the two defendants, and even then it was downplayed by prosecutors.
I have to wonder if during an investigation they could not disclose more. What our politicians say is one issue. What people on the ground investigating is another. I am not trying to make excuses.....just saying with police investigations do or do not disclose in an investigation depending on the needs of the investigation.

I want truth. I want there to be hell to pay for the reality of that day. Storming the capitol with our elected officials finalizing the election? Everyone who illegally made it through should be a felon.

I look back to that day and see it as more of a threat to the US than 9/11.

But I want the "hell to pay" to be based on truth.

It is funny. As much as I loathe the fact that we were fed a pile of crap (for what ever reason)....given the 4 years of the Trump administration,.,,,this pile of crap barely even manages to be noticeable in comparison.
 
Here is an example of how and why information changes with new info, but is not lying when people are making claims that they simply believe from the info they do have at that time.


And by Feb 2nd, CNN was reporting that there were mistakes made in the first reporting on this.


Reports not being perfect does not mean that people lied in their reporting.

It could easily apply here except that the public would likely consider it unreasonable to push the full extent of that responsibility onto all those who participated in this event. That doesn't mean that the event itself and some participants were not responsible for his death.

Even Officer Sicknick's brother stated he collapsed in the Capitol and had to be resuscitated with CPR, indicating that the cause was likely dealing with what was going on at the Capitol.


“He texted me last night and said, ‘I got pepper-sprayed twice,’ and he was in good shape,” Ken Sicknick said. “Apparently he collapsed in the Capitol and they resuscitated him using CPR.”

If someone needs to be resuscitated with CPR I think it is a clue that he was affected by the events that took place that day. He probably didn't just happen to have a stroke from unrelated "natural causes" the next day.

Only a lawyer for Trump would say, "Hey! It's a coincidence! He died of natural causes the day after he had to be given CPR at the insurrection! Totally natural. A stroke."
 
If someone needs to be resuscitated with CPR I think it is a clue that he was affected by the events that took place that day. He probably didn't just happen to have a stroke from unrelated "natural causes" the next day.

Only a lawyer for Trump would say, "Hey! It's a coincidence! He died of natural causes the day after he had to be given CPR at the insurrection! Totally natural. A stroke."
That particular report (that he had to be 'resuscitated with CPR') is out of place, and is likely more bad reporting that was allowed to just sit. Either the brother was getting confused by differing reports, and thought references to the man who died of a heart attack was referring to his brother, OR the CPR occurred much later when he had a stroke.

You do not 'get resuscitated by CPR' and go back to work for the rest of the day.
 
Even granting that, the media does not have the consequent right to lie about the cause of death with wild, unverified stories about killer fire extinguishers.

They reported what was known at the time. Now they update their reporting. It’s why you folks are trying to use it to define down the insurrection. HE WASNT BEATEN TO DEATH HAHAHA WE WIN

You guys think new reporting means the old reporting was “lying” which is stupid. But then again you think changing covid precautions as new data on a novel virus comes in as “flip flopping”.

Late stage conservatism isn’t sending us their best arguments.
 
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