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Capitalism is not compatible with democracy. (1 Viewer)

Many people believe capitalism and democracy are consistent, but the truth is that they are entirely antagonistic to each other. To see why, let's first consider socialism and democracy. Woodrow Wilson, who was a progenitor of the progressive movement, found socialism and democracy to be inseparable:

Roundly described, socialism is a proposition that every community, by means of whatever forms of organization may be most effective for the purpose, see to it for itself that each one of its members finds the employment for which he is best suited and is rewarded according to his diligence and merit, all proper surroundings of moral influence being secured to him by the public authority.

That's the socialist dream right there. He continues:

‘State socialism’ is willing to act though state authority as it is at present organized. It proposes that all idea of a limitation of public authority by individual rights be put out of view, and that the State consider itself bound to stop only at what is unwise or futile in its universal superintendence alike of individual and of public interests. The thesis of the states socialist is, that no line can be drawn between private and public affairs which the State may not cross at will.

No limit on government power, which is basically what all leftists want. Here's the money quote:

Applied in a democratic state, such doctrine sounds radical, but not revolutionary. It is only an acceptance of the extremest logical conclusions deducible from democratic principles long ago received as respectable. For it is very clear that in fundamental theory socialism and democracy are almost if not quite one and the same. They both rest at bottom upon the absolute right of the community to determine its own destiny and that of its members. Men as communities are supreme over men as individuals.

Another way to put would be, "The common interest before self-interest".

This is really what socialism is all about. What's good for the group takes priority over individual rights, and individual rights always come down to specific property rights.

Now let's consider capitalism, where the individual is supreme, and the community can go f itself.

Capitalism is predicated on private ownership, which means it is based on property rights, yet the only way a democratic state can exist is by violating property rights. How can an entity which relies on a form of extortion in order to fund itself in any way be consistent with capitalism? Virtually anything the state does violates property rights in one way or another.

Because of socialism's mile-long track record of failure, many moderate leftists support "regulated capitalism" instead of socialism. Of course the term "regulated capitalism" is nothing but a euphemism for economic fascism where "private" ownership is permitted, but virtually all economic activity is taxed and regulated by the state. The economy Mussolini created was a progressive wet dream.

To summarize, Wilson was correct: democracy and socialism go hand in hand, while democracy and capitalism have nothing in common.
 
But welfare has existed in socialist states, just not in the form of cash payments People like yourself view the government as a metaphorical mommy, and the citizenry as children to be taken care of. In the USSR they had the free housing, healthcare, education, etc, along with guaranteed employment.



So the welfare state is paid for by confiscating wealth from the private sector.




That's right. Free stuff is welfare, by definition.



Well, we've seen what your version of society looks like. Cuba and North Korea are lovely this time of year.
But welfare has existed in socialist states, just not in the form of cash payments People like yourself view the government as a metaphorical mommy, and the citizenry as children to be taken care of. In the USSR they had the free housing, healthcare, education, etc, along with guaranteed employment.



So the welfare state is paid for by confiscating wealth from the private sector.




That's right. Free stuff is welfare, by definition.



Well, we've seen what your version of society looks like. Cuba and North Korea are lovely this time of year.
What’s wrong with free stuff? I get healthcare for free, with my Medicare taxes having paid nowhere near the cost of surgery, hospital stays, and monthly infusions of drugs tested by the government. My Social Security payments far exceed my lifetime contributions. I get mortgage interest deductions, renters get squat. A paralyzed friend is cared for by the state. Top corporate personnel get protected by the corporation. Farmers get dams built to provide them with water for irrigation, some of them still get cheap imported labor. We all suck at one government teat or another, tho some of us don’t like to admit it.

The armed forces are paid for by confiscating wealth from the private sector as well.

Does the above make us Cuba or North Korea,
 
LOL what. Capitalism IS democratic liberalism. This is basic history 101
 
What?!? A rich nobleman born with a silver spoon in his mouth was opposed to socialism? Who could have ever guessed?
I'm opposed to socialism, and I'm as poor as a church mouse.

I just don't want other people to pay for my mistakes in life choices.

Does that give me some moral superiority over socialists?

Yes, it does, actually. :) Liberty and freedom are the things that I root for.
 
It is a common misconception to believe that you don't have the freedom of choice under socialism. You do ... provided, of course, you make the right choices.
 
I'm opposed to socialism, and I'm as poor as a church mouse.

I just don't want other people to pay for my mistakes in life choices.

Does that give me some moral superiority over socialists?

Yes, it does, actually. :) Liberty and freedom are the things that I root for.
You are indeed free to return Social Security benefits when eligible, to turn FEMA away when they come to rescue you because your life choices had you living in a tornado/flood/earthquake zone, to reject help from the fire or police department when in need, etc. You remain morally superior.
 
There are two versions, the corporation that is tightly held for tax purposes, usually by close knit families for tax advantages that allow a very modest retention of profits for that family AND on the other hand the GREED monster CORPORATIONS that are manipulated into wealth funnels for a privileged group of thieving criminals who will go to ANY length of legal and illegal means to collect, steal, cheat, lie and break every decency of morals, scruples and ethics while TAKING every loose cent of money there is available from those who are least able to pay it. The family held corporations are ma and pa operations that are generally local and barely there. Large CORPORATIONS use the middle class and poor individual bank savings accounts, mortgaged homes, and even the pennies from childrens' piggy banks and college funds to pay their employees the very least that they can and their CEOs millions while bribing and buying governments to the CORPORATIONs' ownerships of those governments. The CORPORATIONs, as has been readily demonstrated eventually develop into and operate as nazi states with the violence, ultimate criminality and mass murder that has already been demonstrated within the last 100 years. Wars follow them because wars are profitable to the few. There are a myriad of evil descriptions that describe CORPORATIONs, too many to list here but under the maga (aka nazis) and the narcissist king, the CORPORATIONS along with their parade leaders are here and on their way up the CORPORATE ladders to naziism. We The People will suffer mightily under their hate for US (A)!
 
It's capitalism that raises your standard of living, not democracy.

In fact, democracy is currently lowering the standard of living for tens of millions of Americans. Look at what your democratic institutions have done to the housing and healthcare markets.
Capitalism also takes away your standard of living whenever it fails which it regularly does. Recessions and Depressions are also a part of capitalism. We are about to see how that happens and millions are going to be out of work. A Govt. that does not regulate capitalism to prevent failures is useless.
 
Capitalism also takes away your standard of living whenever it fails which it regularly does.

Private property in the means of production has never lowered your standard of living. While some people may lose their jobs from automation or robotics, the result has always been a net positive for society.
 
I'm opposed to socialism, and I'm as poor as a church mouse.

I just don't want other people to pay for my mistakes in life choices.

Does that give me some moral superiority over socialists?

Yes, it does, actually. :) Liberty and freedom are the things that I root for.

Unless that mistake was to live on land that a hostile nation wants. Then you want other people to bail you out with a military.
 
Private property in the means of production has never lowered your standard of living. While some people may lose their jobs from automation or robotics, the result has always been a net positive for society.

Eventually, and really not that far into the future, there’s going to be a point where machines are designing the machines that build the machines that service the machines that make goods and services.

When that happens, a huge portion of the population won’t just be unemployed, they will be permanently unemployable. What happens then? Do we just expect them to die?

Or do we use socialism to take some of the value of those machines’ labor and use it to allow people to live when they will never have a job?
 
Eventually, and really not that far into the future, there’s going to be a point where machines are designing the machines that build the machines that service the machines that make goods and services.

When that happens, a huge portion of the population won’t just be unemployed, they will be permanently unemployable. What happens then? Do we just expect them to die?

First we should teach them what the lump of labor fallacy is.

Or do we use socialism to take some of the value of those machines’ labor and use it to allow people to live when they will never have a job?

I'll regret this, but what exactly do you mean by the bold text?
 
First we should teach them what the lump of labor fallacy is.



I'll regret this, but what exactly do you mean by the bold text?

Are you going to claim there’s an infinite number of jobs in the economy? There is going to be a point when AI is advanced enough to do basically every job a human could do. Do you expect people who are displaced by that AI to just die quietly?

I mean, we tax the owners of the machines and redistribute that money to the people who can’t work.
 
Are you going to claim there’s an infinite number of jobs in the economy?

Yes.

There is going to be a point when AI is advanced enough to do basically every job a human could do. Do you expect people who are displaced by that AI to just die quietly?

Based on what evidence? Aren't you with the party of science? There is no evidence for what you are assuming. AI has been around since the 50s, and the number of jobs has only gone up.

You have no evidence for this mass unemployment theory, so why believe it?

I mean, we tax the owners of the machines and redistribute that money to the people who can’t work.

Then we hide the machines. Right now, a good desktop with a fancy gpu can run a 13B llm, and we are in the infancy of the AI revolution.
 
Sure the USA is under a union of deficit reliability
to its Taxpayers and most likely in a Predictable war.
Soon to become a Tragedy of Bad luck in DC.

Billionaires are investing in Ai to replace Hired peoples doing manual stuff too.
It's such a pathetic excuse but so predictable. Young people really don't want to work either.
This discussion is just Crap.
 
Unless that mistake was to live on land that a hostile nation wants. Then you want other people to bail you out with a military.
That's a nonsensical argument.

Socialism, Communism, Monarchism, and Capitalism have nothing whatsoever to do with having a military. All countries with these types of government rely on military forces to protect their homeland.

"Socialism in general has a record of failure so blatant that only an intellectual could ignore or evade it." - Thomas Sowell
 
If they are incompatible (which is a silly notion) then we should choose democracy.
There is are definitely competing ideals, and it is my opinion that capitalism must be subordinate to democracy, at the very least.
The problem is that, given any leeway, capitalism will try to find the gaps in it's restrictions, and slowly work it's way to power. Maybe there is some form of capitalism that doesn't do this, but we have yet to find it. China is having a go, with it's about 50% capitalism and 50% state-controlled system. Time will tell if capitalism takes over in the end.
 
Yes.



Based on what evidence? Aren't you with the party of science? There is no evidence for what you are assuming. AI has been around since the 50s, and the number of jobs has only gone up.

You have no evidence for this mass unemployment theory, so why believe it?



Then we hide the machines. Right now, a good desktop with a fancy gpu can run a 13B llm, and we are in the infancy of the AI revolution.

Demonstrate your claim that AI with human level intelligence has existed since the 1950’s.

Where exactly are these machines going to be hidden?
 
That's a nonsensical argument.

Socialism, Communism, Monarchism, and Capitalism have nothing whatsoever to do with having a military. All countries with these types of government rely on military forces to protect their homeland.

"Socialism in general has a record of failure so blatant that only an intellectual could ignore or evade it." - Thomas Sowell

So you agree that you want other people to bail out your mistakes when your mistakes require military intervention, good.
 
There is are definitely competing ideals, and it is my opinion that capitalism must be subordinate to democracy, at the very least.
The problem is that, given any leeway, capitalism will try to find the gaps in it's restrictions, and slowly work it's way to power. Maybe there is some form of capitalism that doesn't do this, but we have yet to find it. China is having a go, with it's about 50% capitalism and 50% state-controlled system. Time will tell if capitalism takes over in the end.
Capitalism is like a fire. You can harness it as a useful tool but it can also burn your house down.
 
Or Capitalism is like water. You may need it to live, but too much and you can drown in it.

;)
Or capitalism is electricity. It helps keep the machines running. It too much of it and things explode and your cat turns into a fascist.
 
Many people believe capitalism and democracy are consistent, but the truth is that they are entirely antagonistic to each other. To see why, let's first consider socialism and democracy. Woodrow Wilson, who was a progenitor of the progressive movement, found socialism and democracy to be inseparable:



That's the socialist dream right there. He continues:



No limit on government power, which is basically what all leftists want. Here's the money quote:



Another way to put would be, "The common interest before self-interest".

This is really what socialism is all about. What's good for the group takes priority over individual rights, and individual rights always come down to specific property rights.

Now let's consider capitalism, where the individual is supreme, and the community can go f itself.

Capitalism is predicated on private ownership, which means it is based on property rights, yet the only way a democratic state can exist is by violating property rights. How can an entity which relies on a form of extortion in order to fund itself in any way be consistent with capitalism? Virtually anything the state does violates property rights in one way or another.

Because of socialism's mile-long track record of failure, many moderate leftists support "regulated capitalism" instead of socialism. Of course the term "regulated capitalism" is nothing but a euphemism for economic fascism where "private" ownership is permitted, but virtually all economic activity is taxed and regulated by the state. The economy Mussolini created was a progressive wet dream.

To summarize, Wilson was correct: democracy and socialism go hand in hand, while democracy and capitalism have nothing in common.
Capitalism, needs democracy. Capitalism is not supposed to be consistent with democracy. Democracy is required to balance the interests of capitalism with the interests of the Country, its citizens and the long term viability of all three. Political parties are supposed to have these same goals, and should be fighting elections on how best to achieve those goals.

Right now, that is not happening. Both parties are fighting on how best to serve their Corporate donors and they do this by pretending the other party is the bad guys and we are the party who will make things better. One party tries to do it with a bit of empathy, the other party expresses how that bit of empathy is going to the wrong people, and it is ruining the country.
 
So you agree that you want other people to bail out your mistakes when your mistakes require military intervention, good.
What an asinine straw man argument. None of my "mistakes require military intervention". You made that shit up.

Your posts are complete nonsense.
 
What an asinine straw man argument. None of my "mistakes require military intervention". You made that shit up.

Your posts are complete nonsense.

So if a hostile foreign nation were to attack you because you made the mistake of living on land they wanted, you wouldn’t want other people to bail you out?
 

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