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capitalism and other kids stuff (1 Viewer)

Red_Dave

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is an intresting video i came across which sets out the case against capatalism. Its a bit of a guilt trip at times and for the record i dont agree with all of it but it raises some intresting questions and ild be intrested to hear what those on here agree and disagree with.

Its availble here: http://www.socialist-tv.com/toppage1.htm . Enjoy :mrgreen:
 
God I hate this video.. what a piece of propoganda, although I have to admit it is quite convincing to the naive mind.

Socialism kills more people..

He said that we had 12x the food we need, but what he failed to say is what created the technology and production of all those food, the hardwork behind it, the motivation that is capitalism.

Socialism can only exist successfully for a short period of time immediately subsequent to a successful capitalistic society, then proceed to turn for the better immediately, but gradually destroys itself.

Capitalism is like a car on blocks... Socialism is a boat on the same terrain..

We have the most technological society ever, he says.. but what created that technology? Capitalism.

Socialist politicians oversimplify things,..

He speaks of unequal distribution of wealth, but all you see is %, as if it was a zero sum game, but the fact of the matter is, in a capitalistic society, that 5% is more than 95%, if you factor in technological advances + production in two societies seperated over the years.

Also, IQs are also unevenly distributed, there are the mentally defficient, and there are the geniuses.

Rule 5. The poorer you are, the more expensive things are for you.

That's relativity by percentage from the poor POV, but from the unaffiliated POV, everything's cheaper for the poor person, taxes, subsudized lunches, etc.

7. The poorer you are, the worse education you have. Bullshit, the opportunity is the same, it's the kids around you that make the difference.

8. The lower the pay, the harder the job.
9. The higher the pay, the easier the pay.

Do I even have to say how ridiculous this is?:lol:

10. If you're really rich, you're a capitalistic and don't work at all.

If you're really rich, and achieved that weath legally, you wised allocated the scare resources given to you. That is why Japan with almost no natural resources can produce more, just like the rich person working easier, than Russia, one of the most mineral and natural substances endowed countries in the world, but cannot even feed it's own citizens, like the poor person working so hard yet earning or making so little.

The capitalist is using his resources better, so for every jouel used, he produces much more than the socialist.

11. Rich people start wars, but poor people have to fight.

There's not enough rich people to fight, and the rich fighting would be poor allocation of resources for the superorganism(the country, or whatever), as a whole, because the rich could be producing more while not fighting than fighting while the poor fights, which is the most efficient thing they can do depending on their skills.

13. Most rich people get rich by inheriting.

This is outright bullshit, the people in the top 20% earnings in the US flucuates rapidly, and shift quickly. Studies show those who were poor earlier became rich afterwards due to earning experience as a result of age, the older you get, the richer you are.

The rules of the alternative, socialism, is much worse.

The REX analogy, the world does not work like that, all the resources are not given to one person, nothing is given for free from a superpowerful authority in capitalism, but that happens in socialism. The gov't takes everyones money and give it equally to everyone, regardless of the amount of work done.

The 19 other kids can rebel and kill REX, and take his toys. The French Revolution?

The REX analogy has several fallacies.

1. It's a zero sum game.
2. Things are unfairly given to specific people.
3. The economy is controlled stringently by an unaffected authoritative figure.


The bigger children can just take REX's toys.. What makes REX have authority over the bigger children, who in turn have the real power when REX has none?


The control that REX have is dictatorship, in capitalism everyone is given the same opportunity, and anyone can achieve anything. The American dream, Andrew Carnegie, John D. Rockefella, all came from the poor, so how is it possible the poor can become the most powerful and richest in this coersive, slavery like system this dude described?

Funny thing is, if REX can convince these people that he is more powerful, important, etc than everyone else, and is able to control these people, then by achieving power he is more important and intelligent than everyone else. :doh

Create people to hate each other... seperated so they won't all turn and unite to dethrone REX.

Ah, so affirmative action is a tool of propoganda and hate in order to seperate us!

So now diversity is evil?

This is really sad, he says working is bad, and weekends, holidays, leisure, are only to keep the workers in dillusioned that they're not slaves, while the rulers get everything while not working. Funny thing is, the rich, self made billionaires, work the most, sometimes twice as many hours as normal workers and producing thousands times more value.

Then he says about the past, where all the kids were equal and playing.. but who's producing anything? Nothing's being produced, inefficiency, in turn creates a lower life standard for all the children, under REX with the children working, inventing, etc. They're creating betters things to bette their lives, so the working life will become better than when they were all equal. Again rememeber this is not a zero sum game.

Utopia is a fantasy, a fairy tale. If all people were not kepted in line, then they would burn the kindergartend down. People are bad, everyone is bad by nature, "the lucifer principle" by Howard Bloom.

Utopias do fail and cannot exist, why? Because our history is long and fruitful, 99.9999999% of the things you have thought of, it has already been tried.

A Welsh socialist tried to build a utopia, New Harmony, Illinois. There was no private property, or money. Everyone was equal. There were no individual sovereignty in this socialist community..

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Harmony

And it failed after 4 years.

He defeats his own point with the hunter gatherer analogy, when private property was nonexistent, people were primative, had nothing. Is he saying that primative hunter gatherers are how we should be living? Is that his definition of utopia? Because without capitalism, we would still be hunter gatherers.

Regarding death monopoly, no ones dies in a capitalistic society because there is so much surplus from the success and produce created by capitalism, there is enough so that everyone survives.

How many people in the United States starve to death each year?

What creates these famines, and starving children, is lack of capitalism in those societies early one.

Competition keeps us running, from sheer terror. True, without that terror, the world wouldn't go round in a sense of production of goods. There would be nothing...

Capitalism is fair, it's equal opportunity, not forced equality, which is unfair because regardless of your actions and reactions which should determine and define you with your properties, the other guy, regardless of his actions and reactions, will have the same to you.

In this game, I get more out of it than if it was not running. Without this game, I would have much less than if If I was playing that game, that is why you play it, because if you are better off not playing it, no one would play.

Now he correlates private property with the destruction of the earth.. That is true of both capital and socialist societies.

Without private property, it would abolish a lot of problem, but create new ones.

He's asking for anarchy, no hiearchy..

Without property, people still have power over others, physically.....

People like doing things for free, his hobbies... Except these hobbies cannot fulfill the requirements needed for survival. Playing computer games all day will not produce anything... or basketball.... or anything that's fun generally.


There will be no order, no efficiency, in post capitalism. The best incentive is money, not need.. because need does not create surplus.

These incentives and fears create efficiency, and in turn increase the standard of living. The hole in his theory is everything does not run perfectly, like in a utopia. There will be people who are lazy, and not everyone has the highest morals in the world. There will be disease and other problems if the "problem" of capitalism is solved, and only capitalism can make the best overral for these situations.

Without price, there will be so much inefficiency and problems. There will be no signs to what someone should do, and the ultimate failure of socialism is the misallocation of scare resources. Only a capitalism society can be the most efficient one, the most motivated and successful, because economy is not production, it is the allocation of scare resources and how we use it.

What will tell a socialist state that doctors are needed? The gov't? How slow will it be before a few central planners realize there is a shortage? When hundreds of thousands are suffering? In a capitalism society, as the demand increases, the doctors will make more, therefore more people will try to become doctors. Same for nurses, engineers, teachers, or anything for that matter.

Socialism completely abolishes the basic laws of economy with the lack of private property and individual sovereignty. It creates massive efficiencies and flaws that it cannot fix by itself. Without the invisible hand, nothing is preventing people from going into the wrong direction.

I love it when he compares the computer revolution and the internet revolution to his theoritical socialism revolution. :lol:

We have seen the outside, and we have seen it fail. Socialist utopias have been scientifically proven to fail.
 
After watching the video, i thought; "bloody hell he can't half blabber on." I thought the first 10, 15 minutes were quite good, the REX thing was, in my opinion, pretty illogical, and yeah after that i got a bit restless so i flicked through it.
so, as i have way too much spare time on my hands to be healthy i'll try and argue a few points against this person who has set themselves up as the funadamental critique of libertarian socialism. Before i go into this, i disagree along with everyone else many bits of the video; especially the parts which 'attempt to appeal to emotion' and 'distort examples' (REX) Though i do share many of the principles which the guy below has ruined.

Synch said:
God I hate this video.. what a piece of propoganda, although I have to admit it is quite convincing to the naive mind.


i agree, propaganda* it is. Convincing to the naive mind it is not. I disagree with your categorizing it as naive, like your trying to put people off defending it.

Synch said:
Socialism kills more people..


does it? There aren't really that many states that could claim to be truly socialist. In fact i don't think you could get any clear examples to show pure socialism in a national context, let alone a modern one. As for it killing more people i have to say i disagree.

Synch said:
He said that we had 12x the food we need, but what he failed to say is what created the technology and production of all those food, the hardwork behind it, the motivation that is capitalism.


agreed

Synch said:
Socialism can only exist successfully for a short period of time immediately subsequent to a successful capitalistic society, then proceed to turn for the better immediately, but gradually destroys itself.


twoddle. Socialism can be regulated and implimented into society in any number of ways, with massively varying degrees. If a company which makes £10,000 a month, has 250 pounds of that taken and distributed to the poor, this is a socialist policy. It could be reduced to £100 or £10. There are massively varying levels of socialism, it is simply a matter of finding the right balance so as not to stifle the entrepreneurial spirit.

Synch said:
Capitalism is like a car on blocks... Socialism is a boat on the same terrain..


..oki doki

Synch said:
We have the most technological society ever, he says.. but what created that technology? Capitalism.


agreed, but what created capitalism? feudalism, so surely, capitalism can advance also.

Synch said:
Socialist politicians oversimplify things,..

He speaks of unequal distribution of wealth, but all you see is %, as if it was a zero sum game, but the fact of the matter is, in a capitalistic society, that 5% is more than 95%, if you factor in technological advances + production in two societies seperated over the years.


i don't really get where your going with this.

Synch said:
Also, IQs are also unevenly distributed, there are the mentally defficient, and there are the geniuses.

Rule 5. The poorer you are, the more expensive things are for you.

That's relativity by percentage from the poor POV, but from the unaffiliated POV, everything's cheaper for the poor person, taxes, subsudized lunches, etc.


yes everythings cheaper!? Apart from in reality where the percentage of money you put towards the shopping is more important then the amount of money you put towards the shopping compared to everyone else.

Synch said:
7. The poorer you are, the worse education you have. Bullshit, the opportunity is the same, it's the kids around you that make the difference.

no i'm afraid your wrong. if You live in a rich American area, you are much more likely to get a good education, i can see you didnt get your education in Africa.

Synch said:
8. The lower the pay, the harder the job.
9. The higher the pay, the easier the pay.

Do I even have to say how ridiculous this is?:lol:


not completely ridiculous, but yes quite ridiculous.

Synch said:
10. If you're really rich, you're a capitalistic and don't work at all.

If you're really rich, and achieved that weath legally, you wised allocated the scare resources given to you. That is why Japan with almost no natural resources can produce more, just like the rich person working easier, than Russia, one of the most mineral and natural substances endowed countries in the world, but cannot even feed it's own citizens, like the poor person working so hard yet earning or making so little.


point 10 is wrong, many do work. Your point is correct but i dont understand where your coming from with that example.

Synch said:
The capitalist is using his resources better, so for every jouel used, he produces much more than the socialist.


how did we get from point 10 to a dig at socialism. Yes he produces more..for himself, thats the whole point of socialism, equality.

Synch said:
11. Rich people start wars, but poor people have to fight.

There's not enough rich people to fight, and the rich fighting would be poor allocation of resources for the superorganism(the country, or whatever), as a whole, because the rich could be producing more while not fighting than fighting while the poor fights, which is the most efficient thing they can do depending on their skills.


not gunna bother with this one.

Synch said:
13. Most rich people get rich by inheriting.

This is outright bullshit, the people in the top 20% earnings in the US flucuates rapidly, and shift quickly. Studies show those who were poor earlier became rich afterwards due to earning experience as a result of age, the older you get, the richer you are.


profanity lowers the impression you emit of urself, when your on a political forum anyway. I don't think most people get rich through inheriting but i think a massive portion do. "studies show" requires a footnote.

Synch said:
The rules of the alternative, socialism, is much worse.


are*

Synch said:
The REX analogy, the world does not work like that, all the resources are not given to one person, nothing is given for free from a superpowerful authority in capitalism, but that happens in socialism. The gov't takes everyones money and give it equally to everyone, regardless of the amount of work done.


he admits resources are not given to one person. It is a pretty lame example though. Nothing is given for free from a superfowerful authority in capitalism..tariffs, subsidies designed to do just that, manipulate the market, yes in capitalist society. The Government takes money yes, then distributes it, regardless of how much work is done.

The 19 other kids can rebel and kill REX, and take his toys. The French Revolution?

The REX analogy has several fallacies.

1. It's a zero sum game.
2. Things are unfairly given to specific people.
3. The economy is controlled stringently by an unaffected authoritative figure. [/QUOTE]


did i miss that, or did the guy on the video basically already admit to most of that. Yes Rex is a rubbish example.

Synch said:
The bigger children can just take REX's toys.. What makes REX have authority over the bigger children, who in turn have the real power when REX has none?


thats the whole point of the policemen!
 
Synch said:
The control that REX have is dictatorship, in capitalism everyone is given the same opportunity, and anyone can achieve anything. The American dream, Andrew Carnegie, John D. Rockefella, all came from the poor, so how is it possible the poor can become the most powerful and richest in this coersive, slavery like system this dude described?


This 'dude' states that there are exceptions but that they are rare, and this is generally correct. The vast majority of those born into poverty will not be able to climb more then one step up the social ladder. The American dream is, to use your language, "bullshit." Thw hole idea of socialism is that there isnt a "most powerful" or "richest" do you not see that?

Synch said:
Funny thing is, if REX can convince these people that he is more powerful, important, etc than everyone else, and is able to control these people, then by achieving power he is more important and intelligent than everyone else. :doh

Create people to hate each other... seperated so they won't all turn and unite to dethrone REX.

Ah, so affirmative action is a tool of propoganda and hate in order to seperate us!

So now diversity is evil?

This is really sad, he says working is bad, and weekends, holidays, leisure, are only to keep the workers in dillusioned that they're not slaves, while the rulers get everything while not working. Funny thing is, the rich, self made billionaires, work the most, sometimes twice as many hours as normal workers and producing thousands times more value.


I think what he was getting at here were the original reforms for example in England where the ten hour day, the brighton holiday etc were created to passify the working class. Funny thing is the rich self made billionaires can stop working whenever they like and retire on the interest.

Synch said:
Then he says about the past, where all the kids were equal and playing.. but who's producing anything? Nothing's being produced, inefficiency, in turn creates a lower life standard for all the children, under REX with the children working, inventing, etc. They're creating betters things to bette their lives, so the working life will become better than when they were all equal. Again rememeber this is not a zero sum game.


sort of..agreed

Synch said:
Utopia is a fantasy, a fairy tale. If all people were not kept in line, then they would burn the kindergartend down. People are bad, everyone is bad by nature, "the lucifer principle" by Howard Bloom.


no..im er pretty sure people arent naturally bad. Very few things are natural, completely on the way ur brought up. I would be happy to argue this.

Utopias do fail and cannot exist, why? Because our history is long and fruitful, 99.9999999% of the things you have thought of, it has already been tried. [/QUOTE]


i very much doubt that, i have an extremely large imagination.

Synch said:
A Welsh socialist tried to build a utopia, New Harmony, Illinois. There was no private property, or money. Everyone was equal. There were no individual sovereignty in this socialist community..

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Harmony

And it failed after 4 years.


Yes, there are lodes of these examples, many scattered across america, whats your point, socialism doesn't have to be a utopia, it can be but doesnt have to be.

Synch said:
He defeats his own point with the hunter gatherer analogy, when private property was nonexistent, people were primative, had nothing. Is he saying that primative hunter gatherers are how we should be living? Is that his definition of utopia? Because without capitalism, we would still be hunter gatherers.


meh

Synch said:
Regarding death monopoly, no ones dies in a capitalistic society because there is so much surplus from the success and produce created by capitalism, there is enough so that everyone survives.


Most people survive yes, many on less then a dollar a day, even in America!

Synch said:
How many people in the United States starve to death each year?


see above.

Synch said:
What creates these famines, and starving children, is lack of capitalism in those societies early one.


no what creates a famine is a lack of food.

Synch said:
Competition keeps us running, from sheer terror. True, without that terror, the world wouldn't go round in a sense of production of goods. There would be nothing...


im pretty sure terror isnt a good thing, ur kind of correct though.

Synch said:
Capitalism is fair, it's equal opportunity, not forced equality, which is unfair because regardless of your actions and reactions which should determine and define you with your properties, the other guy, regardless of his actions and reactions, will have the same to you.


no, wrong. Are you saying everyone has equal opportunities in capitalist societies, just like capitalist racist America 50 years ago. Its not capitalism that gives everyone equal opportunities but how its enforced. If enforced correctly its still unfair. Poor people have less money to start up an initial business etc.

I
Synch said:
n this game, I get more out of it than if it was not running. Without this game, I would have much less than if If I was playing that game, that is why you play it, because if you are better off not playing it, no one would play.

Now he correlates private property with the destruction of the earth.. That is true of both capital and socialist societies.

Without private property, it would abolish a lot of problem, but create new ones.


its getting late.

Synch said:
He's asking for anarchy, no hiearchy..


hes asking for libertarianism, not neccesarily anarchy. Anarchy is really misunderstood nower days.

Synch said:
Without property, people still have power over others, physically.....


true

Synch said:
People like doing things for free, his hobbies... Except these hobbies cannot fulfill the requirements needed for survival. Playing computer games all day will not produce anything... or basketball.... or anything that's fun generally.


...true.

Synch said:
There will be no order, no efficiency, in post capitalism. The best incentive is money, not need.. because need does not create surplus.


no efficiency does. efficiency can be made in a socialist state as well as capitalist ones.

Synch said:
These incentives and fears create efficiency, and in turn increase the standard of living. The hole in his theory is everything does not run perfectly, like in a utopia. There will be people who are lazy, and not everyone has the highest morals in the world. There will be disease and other problems if the "problem" of capitalism is solved, and only capitalism can make the best overral for these situations.

Without price, there will be so much inefficiency and problems. There will be no signs to what someone should do, and the ultimate failure of socialism is the misallocation of scare resources. Only a capitalism society can be the most efficient one, the most motivated and successful, because economy is not production, it is the allocation of scare resources and how we use it.

What will tell a socialist state that doctors are needed? The gov't? How slow will it be before a few central planners realize there is a shortage? When hundreds of thousands are suffering? In a capitalism society, as the demand increases, the doctors will make more, therefore more people will try to become doctors. Same for nurses, engineers, teachers, or anything for that matter.

Socialism completely abolishes the basic laws of economy with the lack of private property and individual sovereignty. It creates massive efficiencies and flaws that it cannot fix by itself. Without the invisible hand, nothing is preventing people from going into the wrong direction.

I love it when he compares the computer revolution and the internet revolution to his theoritical socialism revolution. :lol:


i cudnt be bothered to comment on the last bit sorry, not because its wrong or right, just because i'm tired.

Synch said:
We have seen the outside, and we have seen it fail. Socialist utopias have been scientifically proven to fail.

scientifically? no. i do think utopias are a bad idea tho.
 
I don't think America (or Capitalism) creates Equality of Oppourtunity.

Inheritence tax should be 100% if you really want Equality of Oppourtunity.
 
RufusW said:
I don't think America (or Capitalism) creates Equality of Oppourtunity.

Inheritence tax should be 100% if you really want Equality of Oppourtunity.

lol never really thought about it like that, good stuff.
 

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