Canadian man living in Broward pleads guilty to voting illegally in ‘08 presidential

upsideguy · Sep 1, 2012

Re: Canadian man living in Broward pleads guilty to voting illegally in ‘08 president

Schutzengel said:
You mean like ACORN being sued for voter registration fraud in at least 11 states?

More Acorn Voter Fraud Comes to Light - WSJ.com

Acorn was being charged with registration fraud; not voter fraud. Sorry, but this silliness continues. There are almost zero cases of real voter fraud, and the impact of all voter fraud collectively would not change to outcome of single election.

Let's look at this practically. Is there anyone here that actually believes that you can falsely register enough people AND get those people to vote illegally (at the risk of being charged with voter fraud carrying a penalty of one to five years in prison). Why would anyone risk serious prison time to give but one more vote to someone. There is almost zero probability that one, ten, 100, 1000 votes would affect the outcome of an election. What idiot, after reviewing that risk/reward equation behind such a proposition even consider participating. Moreover, to change an outcome, you would need lots of participants making the conspiracy exponentially harder to pull off.

This just defies the test of reasonableness.. There is no problem. Its just voter suppression. Anyone that thinks otherwise is terribly misinformed, intellectually lazy or disingenuous (although, you would not actually "think otherwise" if you were disingenuous)

If people have all this energy and want to solve problems that actually exist, matter and lack sufficient attention, try global warming.

haymarket · Sep 1, 2012

Re: Canadian man living in Broward pleads guilty to voting illegally in ‘08 president

We have a bunch of election fraud here in Michigan of late.

Republican Speaker of the House Jayce Bolger is being investigated for attempting to fix a House election in favor of a former Democrat who jumped parties with his help. They attempted to put up a phony Dem candidate who would lose badly and have Bolgers flunkie put it.

http://www.freep.com/article/201208...Jase-Bolger-Roy-Schmidt-draws-mixed-reactions

LANSING -- News on Tuesday that an Ingham County judge will conduct a grand jury investigation into the conduct of House Speaker Jase Bolger and state Rep. Roy Schmidt drew praise from Democrats but charges of judge shopping from Republicans. Ingham Circuit Judge Rosemarie Aquilina will examine whether Bolger, R-Marshall, or Schmidt, R-Grand Rapids, conspired to commit perjury or other crimes when they recruited a fake state House candidate in Grand Rapids. The one-woman grand jury is the latest development in a political scandal that has unfolded for more than three months amid a stream of explosive text messages and other records released under the Michigan Freedom of Information Act.

The drama began with Schmidt's May 15 jump from the Democrats to the Republicans, just ahead of the filing deadline for the Aug. 7 primary. His switch coincided with the last-minute Democratic candidacy of Matt Mojzak, a 22-year-old acquaintance of Schmidt's son. The candidacy papers for both Schmidt and Mojzak were delivered to the Kent County clerk by Phil Browne, a top aide to Bolger. Records show Bolger and Schmidt consulted extensively on the scheme. Schmidt offered Mojzak $450 -- later upped to $1,000 -- to take a dive in the election while making it hard for Democrats to mount a write-in challenge.

And then there is Republican Thad McCotter, a multiple term US Representative who resigned in disgrace recently when it was found he submitted fraudulent and forged petitions to put him on the ballot. We then discovered that he did the same thing for his previous two terms and never should have been on the ballot for those terms either.

http://www.freep.com/article/201208...ke-petitions-for-Thaddeus-McCotter-discovered

A review of the nominating petitions turned in for McCotter's elections from 2002 through 2012 shows he did not have enough signatures to qualify to run in at least the 2008, 2010 and 2012 elections. The skullduggery wasn't detected until this year, when a part-time staffer for the Secretary of State found that of the more than 1,800 signatures turned in by the McCotter campaign for 2012, only 244 were valid.

I do not know if either Republican had any acorns in their pockets.

Yup - election fraud is pretty bad in Michigan of late.

Schutzengel · Sep 1, 2012

Re: Canadian man living in Broward pleads guilty to voting illegally in ‘08 president

haymarket said:
We have a bunch of election fraud here in Michigan of late.

Republican Speaker of the House Jayce Bolger is being investigated for attempting to fix a House election in favor of a former Democrat who jumped parties with his help. They attempted to put up a phone Dem candidate who would lose badly and have Bolgers flunkie put it.

Investigation into conduct of Jase Bolger, Roy Schmidt draws mixed reactions | Politics/Election 2012 | Detroit Free Press | freep.com

And then there is Republican Thad McCotter, a multiple term US Representative who resigned in disgrace recently when it was found eh submitted fraudulent and forged petitions to put him on the ballot. We then discovered that he did the same thing for his previous two terms and never should have been on the ballot for those terms either.

Yup - election fraud is pretty bad in Michigan of late.

yes, I agree and it needs to stop everywhere it is found, just as voter intimidation should stop everywhere it is found regardless...

and if you dont think resistration frad leads to voter fraud... why would anyone register voters that will never vote?

I think this is part of the reason dems dont want IDs at the polls.

haymarket · Sep 1, 2012

Re: Canadian man living in Broward pleads guilty to voting illegally in ‘08 president

Schutzengel said:
yes, I agree and it needs to stop everywhere it is found, just as voter intimidation should stop everywhere it is found regardless...

and if you dont think resistration frad leads to voter fraud... why would anyone register voters that will never vote?

I think this is part of the reason dems dont want IDs at the polls.

I would be more than happy to look at your figures on actual voter fraud in actual elections. Please do present it.

Schutzengel · Sep 1, 2012

Re: Canadian man living in Broward pleads guilty to voting illegally in ‘08 president

haymarket said:
I would be more than happy to look at your figures on actual voter fraud in actual elections. Please do present it.

There wouldnt be any it's as simple as this... Voting without ID is on an honor system, if the name is in the system, then that's all you need ... no fraud, you are in the system...

why is it that florida has THOUSANDS of felons and illegals on our books but we are blocked by the justice department from removing them?

haymarket · Sep 1, 2012

Re: Canadian man living in Broward pleads guilty to voting illegally in ‘08 president

So you have no real evidence of any significant voter fraud in actual elections?

Schutzengel · Sep 1, 2012

Re: Canadian man living in Broward pleads guilty to voting illegally in ‘08 president

haymarket said:
So you have no real evidence of any significant voter fraud in actual elections?

YOu know the very nature of it makes numbers impossible... unless the same person is coming into the same polling locations multiple times... abut there have been a few hundred cases of absentee ballot fraud and others, though as you have said not statistically large numbers.

AdamT · Sep 1, 2012

Re: Canadian man living in Broward pleads guilty to voting illegally in ‘08 president

Schutzengel said:
why is it that florida has THOUSANDS of felons and illegals on our books but we are blocked by the justice department from removing them?

No one is blocking the purge of felons. http://www.miamiherald.com/2012/05/22/2812435/state-purges-7000-felons-from.html

But why is it that Florida makes it so ridiculously hard for felons to regain their voting rights? Oh yeah ... because they tend to vote Democratic....

upsideguy · Sep 1, 2012

Re: Canadian man living in Broward pleads guilty to voting illegally in ‘08 president

Schutzengel said:
yes, I agree and it needs to stop everywhere it is found, just as voter intimidation should stop everywhere it is found regardless...

and if you dont think resistration frad leads to voter fraud... why would anyone register voters that will never vote?

I think this is part of the reason dems dont want IDs at the polls.

...because Acorn employees were paid for the number of people they registered. Acorn never really perpetrated registration fraud rather its employees perpetrated payroll fraud AGAINST Acorn.

Schutzengel said:
YOu know the very nature of it makes numbers impossible... unless the same person is coming into the same polling locations multiple times... abut there have been a few hundred cases of absentee ballot fraud and others, though as you have said not statistically large numbers.

...so, there is no problem. Thank you!

Schutzengel · Sep 1, 2012

Re: Canadian man living in Broward pleads guilty to voting illegally in ‘08 president

AdamT said:
No one is blocking the purge of felons. TALLAHASSEE: State purges 7,000 felons from voting rolls - Florida - MiamiHerald.com

But why is it that Florida makes it so ridiculously hard for felons to regain their voting rights? Oh yeah ... because they tend to vote Democratic....

NO ONE? F@#$ ... I didnt realize the DoJ was no one...

Justice Department sues Florida over effort to purge voter rolls of non-citizens | Fox News

The same article said:
Florida last year began looking for non-U.S. citizens on the voter rolls. A comparison of driver's license records with voter registration records turned up as many as 182,000 registered voters who may not be U.S. citizens.

THAT isn't a small number and yes, I am sure that illegals vote HEAVILY (D) but they shouldnt be voting at all... florida filed suit against DHS for access to a database to help them identify illegals... then the Feds sued florida and prevented them from purging the voter rolls.

rocket88 · Sep 1, 2012

Re: Canadian man living in Broward pleads guilty to voting illegally in ‘08 president

Republic Now! said:
I don't think it's an odd question at all. If you're saying students will be disenfranchised, but they MUST necessarily have IDs in order to be students, then what disenfranchises them?

I needed to show an ID when I registered for college, but that was awhile ago.

You might need an ID toregister for college, but in a lot of cases the address will be the parents' address. That's not good enough for most voter ID laws, especially if you go to college in another state.

So you can vote where you are, or make a long commute on a Tuesday. Or you could vote absentee, but now that's a whole different game and much easier to commit fraud.

Schutzengel · Sep 1, 2012

Re: Canadian man living in Broward pleads guilty to voting illegally in ‘08 president

upsideguy said:
...because Acorn employees were paid for the number of people they registered. Its not really registration fraud, the fraud was actually perpetrated AGAINST Acorn.

...so, there is no problem. Thank you!

there is a marked difference between no problem, and not being able to prove there is a problem... why would the DoJ fight to keep 182,000 illegals on the books in florida?

Schutzengel · Sep 1, 2012

Re: Canadian man living in Broward pleads guilty to voting illegally in ‘08 president

rocket88 said:
You might need an ID toregister for college, but in a lot of cases the address will be the parents' address. That's not good enough for most voter ID laws, especially if you go to college in another state.

So you can vote where you are, or make a long commute on a Tuesday. Or you could vote absentee, but now that's a whole different game and much easier to commit fraud.

Havent you heard there is no fraud in voting...

Republic Now! · Sep 1, 2012

Re: Canadian man living in Broward pleads guilty to voting illegally in ‘08 president

rocket88 said:
You might need an ID toregister for college, but in a lot of cases the address will be the parents' address. That's not good enough for most voter ID laws, especially if you go to college in another state.

So you can vote where you are, or make a long commute on a Tuesday. Or you could vote absentee, but now that's a whole different game and much easier to commit fraud.

How so? Just because it is their parent's HOUSE doesn't mean it can't be their place of residence. Are the voter ID laws requiring people to own homes to vote?

haymarket · Sep 1, 2012

Re: Canadian man living in Broward pleads guilty to voting illegally in ‘08 president

Schutzengel said:
YOu know the very nature of it makes numbers impossible... unless the same person is coming into the same polling locations multiple times... abut there have been a few hundred cases of absentee ballot fraud and others, though as you have said not statistically large numbers.

Sounds like a solution in search of a problem.

Middleground · Sep 1, 2012

Re: Canadian man living in Broward pleads guilty to voting illegally in ‘08 president

upsideguy said:
...because Acorn employees were paid for the number of people they registered. Acorn never really perpetrated registration fraud rather its employees perpetrated payroll fraud AGAINST Acorn.

...so, there is no problem. Thank you!

Not to mention that it was ACORN who called the cops on ACORN. Amazing that this tidbit is omitted by partisan press.

What if...? · Sep 1, 2012

Re: Canadian man living in Broward pleads guilty to voting illegally in ‘08 president

AdamT said:
That is not the point. The point is that the laws are supposedly intended to address a problem that is all but nonexistent, and that can be expected to prevent thousands of legitimate people from voting. The fact that YOU find it necessary or conventient to have a photo ID doesn't justify mandating that EVERYONE must have one.

I remember when "Your papers, please." Was a cliche perjorative against the kind of oppressive state we abhorred.

They used to actually call America a "paperless democracy".

How times have changed.

Grim17 · Sep 1, 2012

Re: Canadian man living in Broward pleads guilty to voting illegally in ‘08 president

RadicalModerate said:
It doesn't, but the SCOTUS has recognized that right regardless. What do you think the 14th and 19th Amendments are?

They serve exactly the same purpose as the 26th amendment does. The constitution does not specify that voting is a citizens right. If it did, then states couldn't deny voting to convicted felons.

States have always been allowed to put certain rules and restrictions on voting. All the constitution does is state the methods that States can not use to restrict voting, in order to prevent discimination.

Voting is now and always has been a priviledge, not a right.

rocket88 · Sep 1, 2012

Re: Canadian man living in Broward pleads guilty to voting illegally in ‘08 president

Republic Now! said:
How so? Just because it is their parent's HOUSE doesn't mean it can't be their place of residence. Are the voter ID laws requiring people to own homes to vote?

They require current residence. If you go to school in a different state, you are effectively disenfranchised. Unless you go home to vote, but you'd miss a bunch of classes for that.

There is, of course absentee ballots. Which is where the real fraud happens.

Republic Now! · Sep 1, 2012

Re: Canadian man living in Broward pleads guilty to voting illegally in ‘08 president

rocket88 said:
They require current residence. If you go to school in a different state, you are effectively disenfranchised. Unless you go home to vote, but you'd miss a bunch of classes for that.

There is, of course absentee ballots. Which is where the real fraud happens.

Your place of residence would be the college dorm, no?

Wiseone · Sep 1, 2012

Re: Canadian man living in Broward pleads guilty to voting illegally in ‘08 president

Grim17 said:
Stores in the US lose millions of dollars a year to theft, but very few people are ever arrested for shoplifting. Using your logic, stores shouldn't use security cameras and scanners because there are very few shoplifters.

No using my logic that would mean because there are only 5 or 6 items stolen per year from stores(ie fraudulent votes cast in this analogy), but very few people are arrested. It would be silly to mistakenly bar thousands of people from using stores because they could potentially be one of those 5 or 6 shoplifters. Using my logic, it still sounds ridiculous.

I've got nothing against making our voting system secure, obviously a trustworthy voting system is critical to having a functioning democracy. But people being able to vote freely and legitimately is also critical to a democracy. When the State government of Florida itself says during its purging its only caught one person who's fraudulently voted, and perhaps 5 or so more who should be investigated its not worth the cost of possibly disenfranchising thousands a number which again comes from the same state government.

How does doing that make our democracy better? How is our democracy stronger when thousands who have ever right to vote can't vote because we are worried about a handful of possible fraudulent votes? Thats' my concern/

Grim17 · Sep 1, 2012

Re: Canadian man living in Broward pleads guilty to voting illegally in ‘08 president

Hey Adam, I'm still waiting for your response to this:

Grim17 said:
AdamT said:

Specifically, they want to disenfranchise poor and minority voters who tend to vote Democratic. That is the only election fraud going on here.

Click to expand...

Well, let's see here.

Are the poor given free ID's if they can't afford them?

The answer is yes. In the Supreme Court decision in the Crawford v. Marion County Election Board case, Justice Stevens wrote in the majority opinion that:

"The relevant burdens here are those imposed on eligible voters who lack photo identification cards that comply with SEA 483. Because Indiana’s cards are free, the inconvenience of going to the Bureau of Motor Vehicles, gathering required documents, and posing for a photograph does not qualify as a substantial burden on most voters’ right to vote, or represent a significant increase over the usual burdens of voting."

That makes it quite clear that if states are going to require ID cards to vote, they must offer them free of charge so that those who can't afford them are not disenfranchised.

How does requiring an ID pose more of a burden to minority voters, than it does to majority voters?

The answer is, it doesn't. All citizens regardless of race, are issued the same legal birth certificates, the same citizenship papers, have access to the same government facilities and modes of public transportation, are charged the same amount of money for a legal ID if they can afford one, and both are offered one free if they can not.

Grim17 · Sep 1, 2012

Re: Canadian man living in Broward pleads guilty to voting illegally in ‘08 president

Wiseone said:
No using my logic that would mean because there are only 5 or 6 items stolen per year from stores(ie fraudulent votes cast in this analogy), but very few people are arrested. It would be silly to mistakenly bar thousands of people from using stores because they could potentially be one of those 5 or 6 shoplifters. Using my logic, it still sounds ridiculous.

I've got nothing against making our voting system secure, obviously a trustworthy voting system is critical to having a functioning democracy. But people being able to vote freely and legitimately is also critical to a democracy. When the State government of Florida itself says during its purging its only caught one person who's fraudulently voted, and perhaps 5 or so more who should be investigated its not worth the cost of possibly disenfranchising thousands a number which again comes from the same state government.

How does doing that make our democracy better? How is our democracy stronger when thousands who have ever right to vote can't vote because we are worried about a handful of possible fraudulent votes? Thats' my concern/

My point is unbelievably simple, and yet it still managed to go right over your head... Your argument is that there is almost no significant voter fraud, based on the small number of people who have been charged and convicted of doing so... This time instead of creating an example that might confuses you again, I will get right to the point:

Just because few people are getting caught, arrested and prosecuted for voter fraud, and crimes related to voter fraud, doesn't mean it isn't happening or the potential for it happening isn't there.

Here are a few examples:

Milwaukee
Minnesota
Philly
Detroit
Washington
Nebraska
Wisconsin
Houston
Florida
New York
Alabama
More...

rocket88 · Sep 1, 2012

Re: Canadian man living in Broward pleads guilty to voting illegally in ‘08 president

Republic Now! said:
Your place of residence would be the college dorm, no?

That's probably not what's reflected on their DL. It's more common thata student would have their permanent address, usually their parents', on their ID.

rocket88 · Sep 1, 2012

Re: Canadian man living in Broward pleads guilty to voting illegally in ‘08 president

Grim17 said:
My point is unbelievably simple, and yet it still managed to go right over your head... Your argument is that there is almost no significant voter fraud, based on the small number of people who have been charged and convicted of doing so... This time instead of creating an example that might confuses you again, I will get right to the point:

Just because few people are getting caught, arrested and prosecuted for voter fraud, and crimes related to voter fraud, doesn't mean it isn't happening or the potential for it happening isn't there.

Here are a few examples:

Milwaukee
Minnesota
Philly
Detroit
Washington
Nebraska
Wisconsin
Houston
Florida
New York
Alabama
More...

There's plenty of fraud. Most of it has to do with absentee ballots. That's why when there's a recount, it's usually those ballots that get haggled over. Who's checking those IDs? What do these laws do about real fraud?

Canadian man living in Broward pleads guilty to voting illegally in ‘08 presidential

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