Can You Support The Troops But Be Against The War?

[BodiSatva]

I do not think that this is possible.
I think that those who say that they support the troops and not the war are hypocrites simply trying to look like good guys.

It seems that if one is against the war, they are against those fighting in it.

This goes back to the whole Nuremburg Laws idea. If this war was immoral and wrong, are the soldiers not obligated to NOT follow the orders? Yes. Does this mean that one cannot empathize with the plight of the soldiers having to fight...no. Empathy is fine, but support? Nope. The soldiers are the ones killing people.

Personally, I support the troops, but I also support the initial government response to 911 and the war to destroy those that support terror and beheadings and all sorts of other barbaric atrocities...

 

[Iriemon]

I do not think that this is possible.
I think that those who say that they support the troops and not the war are hypocrites simply trying to look like good guys.

It seems that if one is against the war, they are against those fighting in it.

This goes back to the whole Nuremburg Laws idea. If this war was immoral and wrong, are the soldiers not obligated to NOT follow the orders? Yes. Does this mean that one cannot empathize with the plight of the soldiers having to fight...no. Empathy is fine, but support? Nope. The soldiers are the ones killing people.

Personally, I support the troops, but I also support the initial government response to 911 and the war to destroy those that support terror and beheadings and all sorts of other barbaric atrocities...

What do you mean by "support the troops?" Does that mean we have to support what the troops are doing? Support what they want to do?

How relevant is "supporting the troops" in terms of policy decisions anyway? We should stay in a war simply to "support the troops"? If a war is wrong, and harming America's interest, we should pull out regardless of what the troops want to do.

If you mean by "support the troops" I don't want them to die unnecessarily, they yes, I support the troops and I think they should be brought home. Looked at this way, anyone who supports a long term occupation cannot be supporting the troops because more will die. How can you "support the troops" and wish them to die unnecessarily?

Conversely, if supporting the troops means doing what the majority of the troops want, or blindly supporting their current mission, then no, I do not support the troops, America's interest overall clear outweighs the desires of less than 200,000.

 

[BodiSatva]

I guess that I should/could have included that this topic stems from seeing "Support Our Troops" bumper stickers everywhere.

I feel that this sticker means that those sporting it are saying that they support the people/troops that are forced to fight an immoral war supported by the government...that they are anti government yet pro-people or some other crap.

Hope this helps...

 

[Navy Pride]

It is impossible to support the troops if you don't support their mission.....

 

[ProudAmerican]

I think the people most qualified to answer this question probably dont have access to an internet connection in the middle of the desert, or the south american jungle.

the people that can best answer this question are busy defending our right to be here and discuss it openly.

IMO, its not possible to support the troops, and at the same time give them negative press, and refuse to support their mission.

I would imaging the vast majority of them would agree with me.....but I could be wrong of course.

 

[Sir_Alec]

I just want our troops to be used for good. I support the well being of our troops and not what they do. Why can't we fight justified wars? I mean, there have been so many chances to end genocide in Africa but no, we only go to wars that benefit us. The leader of the free world can't even help those who suffer without something in return. Now I understand why people hate us.

 

[Iriemon]

It is impossible to support the troops if you don't support their mission.....

Only if that is how you define supporting the troops.

If you defining supporting the troops as saving them from unnecessary deaths, then supporting the mission is not supporting the troops -- it is killing them.

We can go back and forth on what "supporting the troops" means all day. It's a fruitless exercise.

 

[ProudAmerican]

I just want our troops to be used for good.

the argument that the war in Iraq is for good has a whole bunch of evidence to support it.

we only go to wars that benefit us.

I cant for the life of me figure out how to date the war in Iraq has benefited us. gas went up another 17 cents over the past two weeks.
that war for oil thing isnt quite panning out for us.

I can however see how it has helped the Iraqi people by eliminating a horrible regime that raped, murdered, and tortured every chance it got.

there have been so many chances to end genocide in Africa but no

I will agree that something should be done in Africa. at this point though, I have to believe the left would only acuse the president of doing something underhanded and crooked if he did try to help.

Now I understand why people hate us.

me too. liberating europe, ridding the planet of nazism, the impearialist japanese, communism, the taliban, saddam hussein.

theres a lot to hate us for.

 

[BodiSatva]

It might be, I was just curious to hear what others thought.

It is opnionated and many will find theri own interpretation.

 

[Iriemon]

we only go to wars that benefit us.

I cant for the life of me figure out how to date the war in Iraq has benefited us. gas went up another 17 cents over the past two weeks.
that war for oil thing isnt quite panning out for us.

I can however see how it has helped the Iraqi people by eliminating a horrible regime that raped, murdered, and tortured every chance it got.

The fact that as things have turned out it is not beneifitting us doesn't mean that Bush took us to war because he thought it would benefit us. The war was only supposed to last weeks, and the reconstruction paid for by Iraq oil which would be flowing freely.

From what I have seen, Iraqis are getting raped, murdered and tortured at a much faster clip since our occupation than during the Hussein regime, so it is certainly questionable how much it has helped the Iraqis.

 

[disneydude]

I think that you ONLY way at this point that you can support the troops is by being against the war. Bush is very quick to continue to sacrifice these young men and women's lives because he has no personal stake in it. Bush plays with our military like it is a tonka toy at his amusement. Our soldiers are fighting a war that Bush started over false pretenses, they are paying for this man's whims with their lives. Those who continue to support Bush using them as pawns in his game are not supporting the troops. They can wave a flag all they want but when it comes down to it, our young men and women are sacrificing their lives daily ....for what? Its time that we really support them and bring them home to a parade of people in the streets showing our support for their efforts. But to continue to condemn them to the current quagmire is sad.

 

[BodiSatva]

True, that is sad. But it seems that you are confusing supporting the troops with opposing Bush. Also, in opposing the war, you are dismissing the real world issue that Radical Islam presents. In doing that, you are not appreciating the efforts of the soldiers that are defending American freedoms. So it sounds as if you are not respecting the soldiers sacrafices in reality.

The question that people seem to miss, is that Radical Islam is a worldwide issue...if we did not face it in Iraq, stirring up the hornets nest...inciting issues all over the world, then it would have happened elsewhere, perhaps somewhere less desirable to Americans...geee, like what happened in New York.

I always love the rhetoric that says that we are the cause of the hatred that they have. The terrorists are scumbags and they deserve to die. I can see the sweels spinning already...Americans have done bad sh!t TOO! Nothing any American has done can be compared to beheading a living person...and if an American has, they should be shot as well.

Sedition is a crime that should be brought back as well...lock up those that wish to undermine America.

 

[Navy Pride]

A lot of Liberals hate President Bush and don't support what we are doing in Iraq so for that reason they don't support the job the troops are tying to do therefore it only makes sense that they don't support the troops......

 

[Iriemon]

True, that is sad. But it seems that you are confusing supporting the troops with opposing Bush. Also, in opposing the war, you are dismissing the real world issue that Radical Islam presents. In doing that, you are not appreciating the efforts of the soldiers that are defending American freedoms. So it sounds as if you are not respecting the soldiers sacrafices in reality.

The question that people seem to miss, is that Radical Islam is a worldwide issue...if we did not face it in Iraq, stirring up the hornets nest...inciting issues all over the world, then it would have happened elsewhere, perhaps somewhere less desirable to Americans...geee, like what happened in New York.

I always love the rhetoric that says that we are the cause of the hatred that they have. The terrorists are scumbags and they deserve to die. I can see the sweels spinning already...Americans have done bad sh!t TOO! Nothing any American has done can be compared to beheading a living person...and if an American has, they should be shot as well.

Sedition is a crime that should be brought back as well...lock up those that wish to undermine America.

When we are perceived as having invaded and occupied a Muslem country based on false pretext , do you think that helps or hurts the Radical Islamic cause?

When our soldiers kill Muslems by the score every day, does that help or hurt the Radical Islamic cause?

I agree the terrorists are scumbags and deserve to die; how do you tell, before they blown themselves up, who is the terrorist and who is not?

 

[ProudAmerican]

When we are perceived as having invaded and occupied a Muslem country based on false pretext , do you think that helps or hurts the Radical Islamic cause?

id rather worry about how Iraq was perceived before we went in, by the UN, Congress, and those guys involved in the oil for food program.

When our soldiers kill Muslems by the score every day, does that help or hurt the Radical Islamic cause?

the radical islamic cause hasnt needed any help before now. they have done fine killing and blowing people up long before we went into Iraq.

I agree the terrorists are scumbags and deserve to die; how do you tell, before they blown themselves up, who is the terrorist and who is not?

"If he runs, hes a Muslem terrorist. if He doesnt run, hes a well trained Muslem terrorist"

sorry, I couldnt resist stealing that from full metal jacket.

 

[Davo The Mavo]

How stupid is this question? I mean it----no-----seriously? You can be against this war and actually be on the ground in Iraq (you follow what I am layin' down?). There is a Gunny in the audience here who appears to be really RIGHT-sided. Even he will tell you that at the unit level it isn't about politics and media Bull Crap. It's about your Friend---your Squad-----your Platoon-----your Company-----the government-----and then politics.

I have a Friend here at this site that knows my personal experiences as a friggin fact. I will not sit by and watch this kind of Voice of Reasoning and let it go by without stating it is a a FULL OF CRAP QUESTION. It is so 3-years ago. It is ridiculous and absurd and meant to divide. But mostly, it's just stupid.

My VFW is full of guys who hate the war but would go there in a second. I know a certain Cappy who would be on the same boat----even if this crap pisses him off.

 

[cherokee]

Can You Support The Troops But Be Against The War?

Yes you can! The reason why we went has come and gone.
It’s about propping the Iraqi people up so they can stand-alone.
What some dumba$$ people don’t understand is if you leave the new government will fall. Remember Afghan after the Russian and US pulled out.
Is that what you want? Do you really think Iran will just stand by?

Leave them and let them do their jobs.

No matter how you feel about the war you can donate to the USO.
Look on the web for Support the Troops sites. Thru them you can send letters and even care packages. Most ask for stuff for the Iraqi people.

People remember our soldiers don’t get to pick where or what they fight . They go where they’re told too. You can NEVER blame them for being there.


And just for the record…
You wont find politics in many a fox holes…. at least not in my days.

 

[BodiSatva]

Thanks fof the input Cherokee...

Diavo...this is a valid question. It is an ongoing question as well...one that probably first arose in the 60's I would imagine...and one that I heard about during the first Desert Storm, so no, this is not so 3 years ago.

You are obviously emotional. I know people as well in and all around the military...and they think that this is a valid question, because they wonder what the people think.

 

[Iriemon]

id rather worry about how Iraq was perceived before we went in, by the UN, Congress, and those guys involved in the oil for food program.

You didn't answer my question, but what does how Iraq was perceived by others have to do with it?

the radical islamic cause hasnt needed any help before now. they have done fine killing and blowing people up long before we went into Iraq.

There will always be radicals. The question is whether our actions are increasing or decreasing their number. Based on the number of attacks and people killed worldwide, we are clearly helping their cause.

"If he runs, hes a Muslem terrorist. if He doesnt run, hes a well trained Muslem terrorist"

sorry, I couldnt resist stealing that from full metal jacket.

Understandable; there is no good answer to the question of how you determine who the terrorists are. That is the heart of the problem. We are fighting a conventional war against what ultimately must be a war of ideals. And we are helping our foes, IMO.

 

[Iriemon]

Can You Support The Troops But Be Against The War?

Yes you can! The reason why we went has come and gone.
It’s about propping the Iraqi people up so they can stand-alone.
What some dumba$$ people don’t understand is if you leave the new government will fall.

Why do you suppose that is. According to the neocons here, there are 27 million Iraqis that support the Govt, and 10,000 in the resistance. Yet if we pull out the Govt will fall. Why?

Remember Afghan after the Russian and US pulled out.

Yep, just like Iraq, the Russians try to impose a puppet government that was not supported by the people, and they were there for 10 years before they wised up.

Is that what you want? Do you really think Iran will just stand by?

What do you think Iran will do? Invade Iraq? If they do then they are the aggressors, not us.

Leave them and let them do their jobs.

There "job" will never be finished and it is costing us $$$ and hurting our interests.

No matter how you feel about the war you can donate to the USO.
Look on the web for Support the Troops sites. Thru them you can send letters and even care packages. Most ask for stuff for the Iraqi people.

I donate every year with a large tax payment. Unfortunatley, this administration gives most of it to lard fattened weapons industry instead of the troops. For that problem, write to your congressman or the CiC.

People remember our soldiers don’t get to pick where or what they fight . They go where they’re told too. You can NEVER blame them for being there.

I certainly don't blame the soldiers. I blame the Bush administration and its conservative warmongering foreign policy agenda.

And just for the record…
You wont find politics in many a fox holes…. at least not in my days.

Of course not. It is those guys' job to do what they are told. It is the President's job to tell them what to do. It is our job to vote for and speak out about issues the president decides.

 

[ashurbanipal]

I think this question is unecessarily divisive; the way it's usually understood it plays upon two very basic human instincts that are sometimes brought into conflict. But in fact we make decisions in analogous situations that are not so difficult to understand.

Suppose I have a child who has done something wrong. By condemning what that child does, do I necessarily stop supporting that child? By supporting the child, do I necessarily have to agree with her actions?

Suppose I have a friend who has done something wrong. By telling him that I think he has acted wrongly, do I thereby necessarily terminate the friendship and cease to be someone that he could call upon for aid (as friends often do)?

Intuitively, we can grasp those analogous examples--it's possible to be an advocate for a person, but nevertheless not support what they're doing.

So, I happen to think that our presence in Iraq is not supportable. Does this mean that I don't care what happens to our troops? Of course not; I'd prefer that they not have to face any more IED's or sniper fire. But I'd also like it if they'd stop killing people there. I also understand that they do what they do from a certain perspective that I don't share; and I know that perspective informs their decisions. I can condemn that perspective as incorrect or not fully cognizant of all relevant factors without thinking that those who share it are evil or not to be supported. And there is no conflict inherent in maintaining any of these attitudes.

 

[shuamort]

Can you support Bush but dislike his plan for giving amnesty to illegal aliens? Yes.
Can you support the USA but dislike the democrats ideas which make up almost half of the political sphere?
Yes.

This type of argument in the OP is an exact example of the false dilemma which is a logical fallacy.

A False Dilemma is a fallacy in which a person uses the following pattern of "reasoning":

1) Either claim X is true or claim Y is true (when X and Y could both be false).
2) Claim Y is false.
3) Therefore claim X is true.

Another example of a false dilemma:
Bill: "Jill and I both support having prayer in public schools."
Jill: "Hey, I never said that!"
Bill: "You're not an atheist are you Jill?"

 

[cherokee]

Iriemon Why do you suppose that is. According to the neocons here, there are 27 million Iraqis that support the Govt, and 10,000 in the resistance. Yet if we pull out the Govt will fall. Why?

And of that number how many are willing to stand and fight? How many are willing to pick up a weapon? How many would fall in line like lemmings if the government fell to a brutal group? How do you prevent this? A strong government.

Iriemon
Yep, just like Iraq, the Russians try to impose a puppet government that was not supported by the people, and they were there for 10 years before they wised up.

Russia invaded afghan to take over not remove its leader. But tell me what superpower is supporting the insurgents? Russia failed because of US support.

Iriemon
What do you think Iran will do? Invade Iraq? If they do then they are the aggressors, not us.

Hmm lets see they fought a war with Iraq for what 8 years or so? Are we the aggressor now? I think not. We are trying to clean this mess up. Read the news the insurgents are the aggressors now.

Iriemon
There "job" will never be finished and it is costing us $$$ and hurting our interests.

And you have a crystal ball to show you this? I use to believe that civil war would breakout after the US pulls out but now I’m not so sure any more.

When you see the interviews of everyday Iraqi people they say they want the US out but not before the new government can stand on its own.
They tell you themselves they have something they didn’t have before
Hope. Just go to Frontline and watch some of the programs they’ve done on Iraq.

 

[BodiSatva]

This question reflects reality.
There are bumper stickers and ideologies that reflect this attitude.
For those that do not like the question, blame those that create the issue from the bumper stickers and those that put bumper stickers on their car claiming they support the troops but hate the government and hate the war and discuss how horrible our soldiers are by killing innocent Iraqies and by committing atrocities in prisons...to me this seems conflicting.

This is an attitude that I have experinced from real people that I have talked to and cars that bear this sticker.

For the whiners out there who can't comprehend this reality, deal with it, that is why the question was posted...to better understand the complexities of varying opinions...

 

[Davo The Mavo]

Unfortunately, too many Americans equate the use of magnetic ribbons on their car as "Supporting the Troops". I got an idea, do like everyone in my Family does, join the Military and give of yourself for a few years-----you do not have to make a career, just do it. You do not have to agree with the War to serve your country. Neither my Son or Daughter, who have both spent time in Iraq, nor my 2-Nephews, also with one tour under their belts agree with the war, yet they would go back if called upon.

We act as if the military is full of trained monkeys or something. They are the same as regular folk, they have opinions that sometimes change over time. They have stances in which they take that some will never change their mind on, and there are some who just don't do politics.

Invariably, this is question which is meant to turn this into a Black and White Issue. You are either with me or against me. Life does not work that way----unless of course you were raised in the House of Bush.