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Can we talk civilly about guns?

Although I'd like a broad discussion, I explicitly did not intend it to be just another rehash of the Second Amendment. I'll participate in those discussions as appropriate in those threads.
One of the most frustrating things when discussing guns (or abortion, or free speech, or anything even tangentially related to the constitution) is that instead of making affirmative arguments for their position and describe how the world should be...people will just go "well the constitution says this so that's how it is". Sure, the legal argument can be relevant and is interesting in certain discussing, but I don't care about the legal argument. I want to hear WHY you think the world would be better/worse if we did X/Y.

"Well the constitution says..." isn't an actual moral argument, but people will end like they've ended the entire debate by declaring their interpretation of the constitution is correct as if Jesus Christ came down himself and blessed their position.
 
One of the most frustrating things when discussing guns (or abortion, or free speech, or anything even tangentially related to the constitution) is that instead of making affirmative arguments for their position and describe how the world should be...people will just go "well the constitution says this so that's how it is". Sure, the legal argument can be relevant and is interesting in certain discussing, but I don't care about the legal argument. I want to hear WHY you think the world would be better/worse if we did X/Y.
How is it possible to have that kind of moral discussion, based on shared moral values, if you can't even get people to agree that objective facts exist outside of their talking points? I mean... I can make the moral argument for every facet of my "extremist" views on gun rights-- as a leftist and liberal position-- but it's hard to justify that kind of effort when I know what kind of response I'm going to get before I start. How can I expect someone to engage with me about Orwell and Jefferson when bitter experience has taught me I can't expect them to engage with basic, objective, easily verifiable facts?

I know "my side" of the argument is pretty awful, but if there's even a good faith version of "their side", I've never seen it.

"Well the constitution says..." isn't an actual moral argument, but people will end like they've ended the entire debate by declaring their interpretation of the constitution is correct as if Jesus Christ came down himself and blessed their position.
It's not a moral argument, for certain, but it should be the end of the political argument unless the person planning on passing a law the Constitution prohibits has a viable plan for amending the Constitution, which is... what we're supposed to do if we decide that the Constitution is "outdated" or simply wrong. People who don't value the right to keep and bear arms don't... seem... capable... of understanding that the 2nd Amendment is the same Constitution as the 1st or 4th or 8th Amendments and if we-- as a society-- believe we can just ignore the black-letter text of the Constitution because something's a big enough threat...

... we've all lived through the Bush years, haven't we? We all remember what his Department of "Justice" tried to do, and mostly got away with?

It doesn't become More Constitutional or Less Constitutional just because we want it to be; the human capacity to read a passage of text and sincerely believe it says whatever they want it to say is terrifying to me.
 
How is it possible to have that kind of moral discussion, based on shared moral values, if you can't even get people to agree that objective facts exist outside of their talking points?
It isn't. If two people disagree on reality the discussing becomes a discussion on what is true and not the issue you are actually talking about.

It's not a moral argument, for certain, but it should be the end of the political argument unless the person planning on passing a law the Constitution prohibits has a viable plan for amending the Constitution, which is... what we're supposed to do if we decide that the Constitution is "outdated" or simply wrong.
Hardly. Before we come up with a plan to amend the constitution or not, we need to decide if we even SHOULD try to amend it. What is or is not constitution has zero bearing on deciding what political positions we should advocate for. Then once we have arrived at a conclusion, and if that conclusion is contrary to the constitution, does it become relevant to the discussion.

Step one is deciding if a goal should be perused or not (i.e. abolishing the electoral college). Step two is determining how to achieve those goals and in that case law becomes relevant.
 
KevinKohler:

Moot, no. Much more difficult, definitely yes.

To look ahead and as an aside, the M-16/AR-15 family of guns are actually only medium intensity firearms. The new military assault-rifle to be introduced in the US Army in a couple of years will be a much higher intensity firearm. The XM-5 will no doubt create demand for a civilian version and when that happens the gun carnage in civilian spaces will increase accordingly, when for example such weapons are used in mass shooting.

Things are on a trajectory to get much worse before they are likely to get better.

Cheers and be well.
Evilroddy.
Deaths from falls increased steadily, annually, from 33,381 in 2015 to 42,114 in 2020
On the other hand, homicide rates consistently trended downward, even with more firearms and increased firearm ownership...until the pandemic year of 2022> im not sure why the expectation is for things to get worse, unless there is a general sense that society is simply going to hell.
 
I guess I will start by first making an admission: there are no plausible circumstances under which I will change my mind. My belief in civilian arms rights is both foundational to my political worldview and a matter of religious conviction. I'm not going to pretend I'm even remotely open-minded on the topic, but I'm also not going to dismiss verifiable facts just because I don't want them to be true.

We'll knock the religious argument out first, just because nobody cares:
Havamal 38 said:
Let a man never stir on his road a step
without his weapons of war
for unsure is the knowing when need shall arise
of a spear on the way without.
This isn't a commandment; we don't have those. But the Havamal is the wisdom of Odin the All-Father for leading a life of good health, good fortune, and good reputation. It was reading the Havamal-- verse 126-- that first convinced me to come home.

And yeah, like most American heathens, I read that literally: never be more than arms-length away from your weapons of war. Don't follow it literally, but I keep to it as close as I can. I've got a moral obligation to protect me and mine, to protect my community, and to protect other travelers on the road; my weapons allow me to do that, my weapons are necessary for me to do that, and so I will not be deprived of my weapons for as long as I'm still fit to carry them.

The secular argument is more complicated and more relevant to most people here.

It starts with a controversial statement, at least in American politics: the right to keep and bear arms is not, logically, a right-wing proposition. The State allowing its subjects to own their own weapons, regardless of class, is one of the largest democratic reforms in human history. The State allowing its minority subjects to own their own weapons is the tacit acknowledgement that their right to life and liberty does not depend on the willingness of the police to protect them; their right to self-defense belongs, first and foremost, to them. The right to keep and bear arms, in a democratic society, safeguards the rights of the minority from the whims of the majority.

The right to keep and bear arms has always been a fundamentally leftist and liberal principle; the "left" and "liberal" Democratic Party embracing gun control is a quirk of history, a Jim Crow policy that survived the Democrats' ideological shift from the anti-Reconstruction party to the pro-Civil Rights Movement party more or less intact.

If we claim that we are a liberal democratic society, that the authority of the State is derived from the consent of the governed, how can we authorize our police and our military to bear arms on our behalf... if that authority does not belong to us in the first place? How can we have equality in a society where only some people have the right to control weapons-- and everyone else is required to pay for them?

Access to guns is not access to democracy, obviously. The right to keep and bear arms does not guarantee any other human right, obviously. They can't do any of that while the actual arms are only owned by a minority and especially when that minority is politically defined by their indifference at best to democracy and the human and civil rights of minorities. But a nation with a much healthier gun culture than ours, and a much higher rate of firearm ownership would be a more liberal and more democratic place.
 
Similarly...I also will not change my mind about arms and the private ownership of arms. As stated...weapons are nothing more than tools. I don't keep a fire extinguisher in my home because I live in fear of my house burning down...I keep them in my home...several of them...because I realize it is a possibility.

If you live in the world you HAVE to recognize that crime and violence happens. It isnt scheduled, its not something we all coordinate.We can be informed and know where crime and violence most likely occurs, and we can plan accordingly to avoid those areas if possible, as much as possible. But we also know that crime sometimes comes to our doorstep. You should have a plan...a well thought out and structured plan with the other occupants of your home regarding what to do in case of a fire...or a violent criminal act. You should be conscious and aware. You should possess the means to protect and defend yourself. at home and while out and about. Not that you will hopefully ever NEED to, but that unfortunately at some point you MAY need to.

I also see the direction society is trending. If you had asked me 10 years ago would we see the kind of violence and rioting in this country that we have seen in the last 5-6 years I would have said...unlikely. Now...its all too normal. And we are one bad incident away from violent mobs spilling into communities.

As for war...again...I would assume being attacked on our soil by an enemy army is unlikely. Far more likely would be a tyrant inviting forces from elsewhere in to 'help' us. At that point, bad shit is possible.

In the meantime, I enjoy target shooting. I enjoy messing around with new guns. Im looking at reloading and black powder options as well. I actively shoot probably 20 times a year at a minimum. I like it. Its recreational for me. Its fun.

I'm a responsible citizen and gun owner. Thats not going to change.
 
It isn't. If two people disagree on reality the discussing becomes a discussion on what is true and not the issue you are actually talking about.


Hardly. Before we come up with a plan to amend the constitution or not, we need to decide if we even SHOULD try to amend it. What is or is not constitution has zero bearing on deciding what political positions we should advocate for. Then once we have arrived at a conclusion, and if that conclusion is contrary to the constitution, does it become relevant to the discussion.

Step one is deciding if a goal should be perused or not (i.e. abolishing the electoral college). Step two is determining how to achieve those goals and in that case law becomes relevant.
That encapsulates much of what I'd hoped to accomplish in this thread. The events of the day have kept me occupied elsewhere, but I am going to throw two more things into the mix tomorrow (hopefully): a lengthy disquisition on the illicit gun market, and statistics disproving the "good guy with a gun" canard. Do you know who most often stops a bad guy with a gun? The bad guy. I'll explain.
 
It really depends on the context, doesn't it? I don't think paper targets have a view on the subject, do you? I suspect, if game animals consider the prospect even briefly, they may have a view on the matter, but in many circumstances they may prefer the immediacy of a gunshot to the elongated process of being devoured by a predator. What do you think?

I'll go back to my matrix. A gun is a tool used to put a projectile on a target. "Barbarism" seems to be a broader human construct that is not particularly adaptable to the discussion absent context.

As a tool, do I think that firearms have utility to engage in barbaric acts? Absolutely. Uvalde, Newtown, etc., etc., and etc., have demonstrated that in spades.
A gun is designed for one purpose only; to deliver a projectile in order to kill the 'target'. The very few exceptions are Olympic-style small calibre guns. Furthermore I consider 20,000 deaths from gunshot annually, in a nation touting itself as civilised, as the very epitome of a barbaric society, where mass shootings have become so commonplace, and the citizenry has become so numbed by the very quantity and frequency, that they barely merit a mention in the media.
 
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... and the citizenry has become so numbed by the very quantity and frequency, that they barely merit a mention in the media.
We're not numbed to it. The media is finally heeding calls to stop publicizing the shootings to discourage copycats.
 
And you can prove that; or is it merely your opinion?
It's a known psychological phenomenon, plus the fact that attacking innocent people in a public place is attention-seeking behavior.

It's why they report as few details as possible about newsworthy suicides; every detail gives copycats something to latch onto.
 
It's a known psychological phenomenon, plus the fact that attacking innocent people in a public place is attention-seeking behavior.

It's why they report as few details as possible about newsworthy suicides; every detail gives copycats something to latch onto.
Is it? I suspect you're just guessing, and anyway suicide is not the subject of this discussion which is about guns. As of today I have seen no empirical evidence that gun crime is motivated by copying.
 
@NWRatCon The answer to the question in your thread title is "no". This is why.
The answer may be no (although this thread seems to auger otherwise), but "this" is not why. Disagreement is not incivility. There seems to be a single point that you and your correspondent are in disagreement on. He's asked for backup to your point - that's expected in these forums. That's not dismissive, that's continuing the discussion. I'm looking at your link.

In some respects we're mixing apples and oranges. The typical suicide is not a public affair. It's a different group of people - narcissists - that incorporate murder into their suicides.

By the way, I've argued that suicide is relevant to the discussion, as suicide is the leading cause of death by firearm, and 85% of suicides by firearms are successful, while only 3% of other suicide attempts are. The reality is that most suicide attempts are spur of the moment things undertaken under great stress. Attempts are signifiers of that stress, and many, if not most, unsuccessful attempts result in intervention and treatment. That's not so with firearms, a circumstance that is relevant to this debate.
 
I guess I will start by first making an admission: there are no plausible circumstances under which I will change my mind. My belief in civilian arms rights is both foundational to my political worldview and a matter of religious conviction. I'm not going to pretend I'm even remotely open-minded on the topic, but I'm also not going to dismiss verifiable facts just because I don't want them to be true.
I didn't get a chance to address this argument earlier. But, if you have no willingness to have your thoughts influenced, why participate? Keep a journal. ;)
We'll knock the religious argument out first, just because nobody cares:
You are right that the religious argument can be dismissed, legitimately in my view, as irrelevant to the larger discussion, because, as I've stated, I don't care why one wants to have a gun. If it's for religious reasons, I respect that. Moreover, it does not affect the public interest in gun control in the public.
The secular argument is more complicated and more relevant to most people here.

It starts with a controversial statement, at least in American politics: the right to keep and bear arms is not, logically, a right-wing proposition.
So far, I'm in agreement, but I quibble later.
The State allowing its subjects to own their own weapons, regardless of class, is one of the largest democratic reforms in human history. The State allowing its minority subjects to own their own weapons is the tacit acknowledgement that their right to life and liberty does not depend on the willingness of the police to protect them; their right to self-defense belongs, first and foremost, to them. The right to keep and bear arms, in a democratic society, safeguards the rights of the minority from the whims of the majority.
Hmmm. So far so good. I'll note, here, that the taking up of arms by the black panthers in the 60s is consistent with this argument.
The right to keep and bear arms has always been a fundamentally leftist and liberal principle; the "left" and "liberal" Democratic Party embracing gun control is a quirk of history, a Jim Crow policy that survived the Democrats' ideological shift from the anti-Reconstruction party to the pro-Civil Rights Movement party more or less intact.
Here I begin my disagreement, but more later. I don't think that's historically or philosophically accurate.
If we claim that we are a liberal democratic society, that the authority of the State is derived from the consent of the governed, how can we authorize our police and our military to bear arms on our behalf... if that authority does not belong to us in the first place? How can we have equality in a society where only some people have the right to control weapons-- and everyone else is required to pay for them?
Again, arguments I can agree with. I think, though, that your last sentence begins to drift from the point.
Access to guns is not access to democracy, obviously. The right to keep and bear arms does not guarantee any other human right, obviously. They can't do any of that while the actual arms are only owned by a minority and especially when that minority is politically defined by their indifference at best to democracy and the human and civil rights of minorities. But a nation with a much healthier gun culture than ours, and a much higher rate of firearm ownership would be a more liberal and more democratic place.
I'm still mostly in agreement with your precis. I, too, believe that individual ownership of firearms is a protectable liberty interest (although not under the 2nd Amendment, but the 9th). You make a very valid point with your last statement, too about healthy gun culture (but not with more guns - that's a non sequitur). Here is where my quibble starts.

Regulation in any sphere is a balancing of interests. That is especially true under the Constitution. All of your arguments are very relevant with respect to individual interests. Completely absent, however, is consideration of the public interest, except in the abstract.

Character limits...
 
Continued from previous post RE:
... a nation with a much healthier gun culture than ours, and a much higher rate of firearm ownership would be a more liberal and more democratic place.
(Here's where I attempt the Quixotic quest to actually influence your thoughts...)

Guns, as I and others have noted, are tools. Particularly deadly tools. As such, regulation is not only expected, but required for any functioning society. I'm not an absolutist on either side of this issue, and neither is the Constitution. You have stated legitimate reasons for personal ownership, and I have agreed, in principle. That argument, however, ignores the other side of the equation: the public interest.

The vast majority of Americans do not own firearms. That is their right. They, nonetheless, participate in society. In that society firearms exist. As you acknowledge, not all aspects of that "gun culture" are "healthy".

Firearms are intended to kill, they are indiscriminate with regard to their targets. That reality informs public policy, and is resident in the phrase "a well-regulated militia" in the Constitution, and in the history of our nation and in the philosophy of those who formed it. As I noted above, regulation in any sphere, especially under the Constitution, is a balancing of interests. None of the "liberties" acknowledged in the Constitution - enumerated and unenumerated - is absolute. All are subject to this balancing process.

That is where most discussions of guns break down on these fora, and in general discourse. There are absolutists on both side of the equation. None of them are appropriately "constitutionalists," hence this thread.

You have offered a democratic basis for the possession of firearms in our society. I accept that, in the main. But that cannot be the end of the discussion. It's the beginning. What role do firearms play in that society, and how do we preserve the interests of the majority against the desires of the minority.

For example, firearms are commonly used as a form of intimidation. That, I submit, is one of those "unhealthy" aspect of our culture. Use of firearms to intimidate, in domestic relations, against others and in the public is a problem. A vanishingly small minority of the populations - the Proud Boys, Oath Keepers, III%ers, various militias and their ilk - openly use our lax laws to intimidate others with outsize effect. Can we regulate that behavior? Should we? Is that gun control or an orderly society? Is prohibiting the carriage of firearms at organized protests good public policy?

Those are the kinds of issues that we should discuss here, civilly.
 
I didn't get a chance to address this argument earlier. But, if you have no willingness to have your thoughts influenced, why participate? Keep a journal. ;)
Very few people ever change their minds on anything we discuss here. I think there's intellectual and moral value in people who disagree-- who would disagree violently, given the means and opportunity-- being able to articulate their positions openly, honestly, and without rancor.

Guns, as I and others have noted, are tools. Particularly deadly tools. As such, regulation is not only expected, but required for any functioning society.
I can agree with this, and there are limitations on the right to keep and bear arms I consider morally acceptable... but total bans on handguns and semiautomatic rifles aren't just "regulations" of arming rights, and banning a list of arbitrary cosmetic and/or safety features that have never been used in a crime isn't something that makes sense or should be considered permissible when regulating something that isn't a fundamental human right.

As I noted above, regulation in any sphere, especially under the Constitution, is a balancing of interests. None of the "liberties" acknowledged in the Constitution - enumerated and unenumerated - is absolute. All are subject to this balancing process.
All of that balancing, though, is based on the idea that the exercise of one right by a private party infringes upon the rights of another party-- the classic example being "swinging your fist" versus "having a nose". Advocates for gun control argue that a gun's mere existence is a violation of their rights and thus we're arguing about the conflict between "having fists" and "sticking our nose in other people's business."

Regardless of ideology isn't a human right or a political principle compatible with a rights-based society.

You have offered a democratic basis for the possession of firearms in our society. I accept that, in the main. But that cannot be the end of the discussion. It's the beginning. What role do firearms play in that society, and how do we preserve the interests of the majority against the desires of the minority.
You protect the interests of the majority from a privileged minority the same way you always do-- you democratize the source of their privilege. You protect the interests of an underprivileged minority from the majority by setting some issues outside of the regular political process. In the case of the USA, we have a Bill of Rights that limits the extent of the government's power; Americans don't appreciate that if they allow their side to subvert the text For Justice!, they're making it easier for the other side to subvert it For Tyranny!.

A vanishingly small minority of the populations - the Proud Boys, Oath Keepers, III%ers, various militias and their ilk - openly use our lax laws to intimidate others with outsize effect. Can we regulate that behavior?
The Proud Boys, the Oath Keepers, and etc etc etc don't deserve the polish the combat boots of the original Black Panthers.

But I can't think of a way to word a law that would prevent them from open-carrying their weapons at a protest, but not prohibit the Black Panthers from open-carrying at a protest-- and if we gave the government the authority to make that decision, they would inevitably make that decision in favor of the establishment, in favor of the privileged protesting to protect their privilege. And that, I cannot abide.

I've said it before, but the answer is more guns. Specifically, more gun owners, more guns EDC. That kind of protest loses all of its meaning when guns are no longer special, no longer a symbol of dominance-- no longer an unfair advantage in an argument against people who don't have them. If everyone's packing, lifting your shirt isn't an effective threat anymore; they just lift yours back at you, and it becomes a friendly greeting in our culture. Got yours? Good. Got mine? Damn right.

Thing is... we keep saying they're just a tool, just a tool, just a tool, but they're really not. We have mythologized the gun into a talisman of death, the scepter of masculine authority, the final argument. And it's... not just the gun advocates or the anti-gun activists, they both have turned the argument over gun policy into the ultimate signifier of The Kind of Country We Want to Live In.
 
I've said it before, but the answer is more guns. Specifically, more gun owners, more guns EDC.
There is, literally, no statistical support for that argument. Every study that has considered it has shown that the more guns, the more gun violence. The more legal guns in circulation, the more illegal guns in circulation. At least when making arguments, base them in reality, not notions.

Another problem with most discussions is that they focus on the wrong things - usually isolated to homicide. But for every gun homicide there are twice the aggravated assaults, and 8 times the assaults, robberies, and other violent crimes.

Even limiting it to gun deaths:
The top states by gun death rates are:
  • Mississippi -- 28.6.
  • Louisiana -- 26.3.
  • Wyoming -- 25.9.
  • Missouri -- 23.9.
  • Alabama -- 23.6.
  • Alaska -- 23.5.
Here's where the lack of good federal data haunts us. It's hard to find solid gun ownership rates. The RAND Corporation, a non-profit research organization, has tried and published data on average gun ownership by state between 2007 and 2016.
All of those states with the highest gun death rates are among the ones with the highest gun ownership rates.
  • Mississippi -- 50% of adults live in a household with a gun.
  • Louisiana -- 48%.
  • Wyoming -- 59%.
  • Missouri -- 48%.
  • Alabama -- 50%.
  • Alaska -- 59%.
Where there are fewer guns, there are fewer gun deaths. The states with the lowest gun death rates in 2020, per the CDC (alongside the percentage of homes with a gun in 2007-2016, per RAND) were:
  • Hawaii -- 3.4 (8% of adults live in a household with a gun).
  • Massachusetts -- 3.7 (10%).
  • New Jersey -- 5 (8%).
  • Rhode Island -- 5.1 (11%).
  • New York -- 5.3 (14%).
You can do the same thing with cities:

Chicago does have a horrifically high murder rate, although the guns there often come from a neighboring state.
There are higher murder rates in other cities, and they're often in places with more lax gun laws, like Jackson, Mississippi. Read this CNN dispatch about murders in Jackson. It is heartbreaking.
According to Everytown's analysis of FBI data, the cities with the highest gun homicide rates in 2020 were all in states with lax gun laws:
  • Jackson, Mississippi -- 69 gun homicides per 100,000 people.
  • Gary, Indiana -- 64.
  • St. Louis -- 50.
  • New Orleans -- 48.
  • Memphis, Tennessee -- 47.
Baltimore, where the gun laws are relatively strict, was next.
 
As former Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF) Director Bradley Buckles stated in a 2000 report, “Virtually every crime gun in the United States starts off as a legal firearm

This is a serious problem. For political reasons, Republican legislators (it's virtually all Republicans), blocked most statistical reporting involving firearms for decades. That included firearm injuries, homicides, sources of firearms, and lots of other data. Academics and physician organizations complained about it for years and years and years.

"We know from Centers for Disease Control and Prevention data that just over 100 people, on average, are killed by firearms in the U.S. every day. That includes crimes, suicides, gun accidents and shootings involving law enforcement.

But how often is someone injured by a firearm in America? Why, how and what kinds of weapons are used? What are the underlying causes? What's the relationship between shooter and victim? What evidence-based, scalable programs work best to help prevent criminal shootings, accidents and suicides? On these and other questions, people in public health, criminal justice, policing and academia admit they lack full and adequate answers." After 25 Years In The Dark, The CDC Wants To Study The True Toll Of Guns In America (NPR).
 
This came up in another thread, but it belongs here, too, so I'll distill the point. America has an oversupply issue.
Top 10 Countries with Highest Gun Ownership
(Civilian guns owned per 100 people):
  1. United States - 120.5
  2. Falkland Islands - 62.1
  3. Yemen - 52.8
  4. New Caledonia - 42.5
  5. Serbia - 39.1 (tie)
  6. Montenegro - 39.1 (tie)
  7. Uruguay - 34.7 (tie)
  8. Canada - 34.7 (tie)
  9. Cyprus - 34
  10. Finland - 32.4
Yes, that's 20% more guns than people in the US, the only country to come close. It is reliably estimated that the United States owns nearly half of all the civilian guns in the world.

Did you know that the US produces more firearms than babies annually? It's true. In some years it's a 4:3 ratio. Even if you just count pistols.

Where do they all go? Most sit on shelves, unsold; many go to buyers who already own, on average 3 - 4 firearms; and a significant portion are trafficked in illegal markets. No one knows how many, because statistics are based on recoveries - usually from gun crimes. Yet, every year a half a million firearms are smuggled from the US to Mexico, or about 12% of the US production. Even more end up on US streets. Every year over 300,000 guns are stolen from private owners, yet, "Stolen guns account for only about 10% to 15% of guns used in crimes," according to ATF agent Jay Wachtel. (Hot Guns, PBS). Most "hot guns" are purchased "legally" by the original owner, then transferred to the underground market. "ATF officials say that only about 8% of the nation's 124,000 retail gun dealers sell the majority of handguns that are used in crimes."

Another growing segment of the underground market are "ghost guns" - manufactured from illegally manufactured parts. The problem with ghost guns is the difficulty in tracing them. "A CNN analysis earlier this year of 2021 data found while ghost guns still make up a relatively small percentage of the total number of guns recovered by law enforcement, several cities reported sharp increases in the number of ghost guns recovered over time. San Francisco police told CNN they seized 1,089 guns in 2021, about 20% of which were ghost guns. In 2016, ghost guns made up less than 1% of total gun seizures in the city."

"They will sell you all of these parts or gun kits to make a fully functioning firearm with no background check, with no verification of who you are. All you need is a credit card," [NYPD Inspector Courtney] Nilan said. "It doesn't matter your age; it doesn't matter your criminal record; and they will send you either the parts or a kit." Nilan said her team has identified roughly 115 online retailers who send their ghost gun kits all over the country.

As a common rule of economics, when supply exceeds demand, prices go down. That's why Remington went bankrupt - twice - and a number of small manufacturers have simply ceased operations. Even so, guns are biggish business (except in comparison to other businesses - it ranks somewhere near 60th in industry size, depending on the source).

And the gun-trafficking business is booming.
 
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And the gun-trafficking business is booming.
An interesting take I read in Forbes: "What is larger than the revenue in the gun business is the amount of money spent securing ourselves against America’s gun violence problem". I hadn't even considered that. America's Gun Business Is $28B. The Gun Violence Business Is Bigger. "Our gun violence problem and the political conflict surrounding it have existed so long that there are now markets that have sprung up and companies making profits off the efforts to solve gun violence."

The security alarm business alone, for instance, brings in $25 billion a year. There are 1.1 million security guards employed in the United States, according to the Department of Labor. I’m guessing the business of a company like ALICE Training Institute, which provides civilian training on how to respond to active shooters, is probably booming right now. The Washington Post estimated schools are spending $2.7 billion a year on security measures. Government spending on domestic homeland security averaged $65 billion per year from 2002 to 2017.

You can argue that all the political firms and nonprofits in this space, from the NRA to gun control groups, are part of the gun violence “industry,” with their vested interests growing the longer they are engaged in battle.
 
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