Can today's soldiers pass the U.S. Army's WW ll PRT ?

1946 (World War II) Army Physical Fitness Test

>" In the late 1990's, Dr. Ed Thomas was an Instructor and Doctrine Writer at the Army Physical Fitness School. Dr. Thomas served in the Infantry in 1967-69. He is one of the top military physical readiness training doctrine experts in the nation, and is often quoted in the media. For more background information about Dr. Thomas, click here.

Dr. Thomas has been calling for reform of Army PRT since the 1980s. To stress the need for improved PRT, Dr. Thomas began giving the WWII PT test to units in and around Fort Benning. The results were sobering. Soldiers who scored in the highest percentile of pushups, for instance, could only do a fraction of their usual numbers when held to the WWII standards. This is because during WWII, fitness experts understood that the purpose of the pushup is to prepare a soldier to push somebody or something. Dr. Thomas published an article in the Fort Benning newspaper in the late 1990s explaining how the pushup quality was compromised in the early 1980s. As the quality deteriorated, the required numbers increased. Now soldiers throughout the Army make themselves less prepared to push because the doctrine reinforces poor pushups.

PRT doctrine developed after WWII and the Korean War was aimed at mission essential battlefield performance. The squat jumper, for instance, could predict how well a soldier could assume a stable crouched firing position and then quickly recover so he could maneuver. It is not unusual today to find scores of Infantry soldiers who cannot do even a few squat jumpers to the WWII standard. The danger of doing them is high for those who have not trained their bodies to properly execute the movement, and training injuries will occur if soldiers are not taught using the three cardinal rules of progression, variety and precision.

With the demise of functional PRT in the early 1980s, only those who served in elite units might recall today what quality physical training looked like. Rangers and Special forces held on to the classical PRT doctrine for several years after the mainstream drifted off course. Ironically, many of the principles employed in previous doctrine are considered cutting-edge today by world-class strength and conditioning coaches.

The New York Times learned about how poorly today's soldier did on the WWII PT test, and the published an article about it.

Take the test, but don't compromise the standard. If you want to score better on the WWII test in the future, get hold of the 1946 FM 21-20 or the 1957 TM 21-200 and start employing the PRT doctrine of those periods..."<

continue -> 1946 (World War II) Army Physical Fitness Test

1946 Army Physical Fitness Test Standards

It's here -> 1946 Army Physical Fitness Test Standards


The Old Army, It Turns Out, Was the Fitter One

newyorktimes

APACHERAT said:

1946 (World War II) Army Physical Fitness Test

>" In the late 1990's, Dr. Ed Thomas was an Instructor and Doctrine Writer at the Army Physical Fitness School. Dr. Thomas served in the Infantry in 1967-69. He is one of the top military physical readiness training doctrine experts in the nation, and is often quoted in the media. For more background information about Dr. Thomas, click here.

Dr. Thomas has been calling for reform of Army PRT since the 1980s. To stress the need for improved PRT, Dr. Thomas began giving the WWII PT test to units in and around Fort Benning. The results were sobering. Soldiers who scored in the highest percentile of pushups, for instance, could only do a fraction of their usual numbers when held to the WWII standards. This is because during WWII, fitness experts understood that the purpose of the pushup is to prepare a soldier to push somebody or something. Dr. Thomas published an article in the Fort Benning newspaper in the late 1990s explaining how the pushup quality was compromised in the early 1980s. As the quality deteriorated, the required numbers increased. Now soldiers throughout the Army make themselves less prepared to push because the doctrine reinforces poor pushups.

PRT doctrine developed after WWII and the Korean War was aimed at mission essential battlefield performance. The squat jumper, for instance, could predict how well a soldier could assume a stable crouched firing position and then quickly recover so he could maneuver. It is not unusual today to find scores of Infantry soldiers who cannot do even a few squat jumpers to the WWII standard. The danger of doing them is high for those who have not trained their bodies to properly execute the movement, and training injuries will occur if soldiers are not taught using the three cardinal rules of progression, variety and precision.

With the demise of functional PRT in the early 1980s, only those who served in elite units might recall today what quality physical training looked like. Rangers and Special forces held on to the classical PRT doctrine for several years after the mainstream drifted off course. Ironically, many of the principles employed in previous doctrine are considered cutting-edge today by world-class strength and conditioning coaches.

The New York Times learned about how poorly today's soldier did on the WWII PT test, and the published an article about it.

Take the test, but don't compromise the standard. If you want to score better on the WWII test in the future, get hold of the 1946 FM 21-20 or the 1957 TM 21-200 and start employing the PRT doctrine of those periods..."<

continue -> 1946 (World War II) Army Physical Fitness Test

1946 Army Physical Fitness Test Standards

It's here -> 1946 Army Physical Fitness Test Standards


The Old Army, It Turns Out, Was the Fitter One

newyorktimes

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I have to be skeptical. I don't know about the army but, in the navy we understand that words written on paper, and how that is actually applied, is a lot different. back in the day, a lot of officers and chief used to be fat because they would never actually do the PRT.

I'm a push-up machine, man. My DI's, especially the Kill Hat, found that out and tested me to see how long exactly I could do them before my body gave out because they had learned that I would not quit.

As someone who 'enjoyed' service in the Light Infantry- about as close to WWII Dogfaces the Mattel Toy soldier gets- I have to smile at the 'theory' behind PT.

Our qualifying PT test included a 2 mile run, the run dodge and jump, the crab crawl, push-ups, sit ups, and a horizontal ladder. Fun,fun, fun.

The run dodge and run simulated trench combat, never recall using a horizontal ladder to cross an obstacle, and just what combat activity uses the crab crawl????? We didn't do PT drills because each exercise would be used in combat, but to increase endurance and confidence.

I don't recall training to push anyone or anything as a rule. We developed upper body strength to dig in, carry heavy loads and endurance. Far more than feats of strength a grunt needs endurance. Fight through the pain, not play push me/pull you. :doh

Quite frankly ANY group of people can do poorly on a test if they don't practice it, the squat thrust was part of our pt training, and we sucked at it until we did it a few times. Same for the bend and stretch, I'd put little stock in what a grunt of today can't do as far as some old long forgotten PT test says...

Can he hump his ruck all day, dig in at night, live off of crappy rats, get back under his ruck at oh dark 30 and do it all over again day after day?

What soldier are we talking about? I remember many REMF soldiers back in my day not doing well on the PT test... not everyone is a grunt or engaged in heavy physical activity. I saw a lot of wide bodies back in the day.

Sometimes a few have to dig pretty far into the barrel to come up with a gripe... eace

The PRT I did in basic sucked, yes. But more so in the manner it was conducted in rather than the exercises we did or the amount of repetitions.

notquiteright said:

not everyone is a grunt or engaged in heavy physical activity. I saw a lot of wide bodies back in the day.

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Last day of VicForge I was asking my DS about the ECP, what to do, best way to do what, and he looks at me and asks what my MOS is. I tell him SatCom, and he looks and me and says "Why the **** do you care, you're gonna be behind a ****ing desk all day."

Jango said:

I'm a push-up machine, man. My DI's, especially the Kill Hat, found that out and tested me to see how long exactly I could do them before my body gave out because they had learned that I would not quit.

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Don't be shy Jango, how many push-ups were you able to do ?

When I entered boot camp I was able to do 100. By the end of boot camp I was down to 80 push-ups but I increased in pull-ups, sit-ups and running.

Can a WWII soldier pass a Microsoft Certified Technican test?

Jredbaron96 said:

Last day of VicForge I was asking my DS about the ECP, what to do, best way to do what, and he looks at me and asks what my MOS is. I tell him SatCom, and he looks and me and says "Why the **** do you care, you're gonna be behind a ****ing desk all day."

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I had a buddy who was with SATCOM in Vietnam.

You would see all of these microwave relay stations from one end of Nam all the way to the other end sitting on top of mountains out in the middle of Indian country. They had to defend their own bases.

There was one base where there just wasn't not enough SATCOM soldiers available to defend the base so they had to bring in the Special Forces and their Montagnard soldiers to defend the base. They built an elaborate trench system around the base so no matter which way Charley came up the mountain they found themselves in a cross fire.

beefheart said:

Can a WWII soldier pass a Microsoft Certified Technican test?

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Who in the **** do you think invented the internet ? Who put man on the moon ?

APACHERAT said:

Who in the **** do you think invented the internet ? Who put man on the moon ?

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Microsoft?

beefheart said:

Can a WWII soldier pass a Microsoft Certified Technican test?

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Who cares, once the Chinese hack in and kill it. Or an EMP burst kills it.

beefheart said:

Microsoft?

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You are asking who or what microsoft is ?

I guess it's true, today's technology is dumbing down society.

There are some pretty glaring issues with the article you posted.
When in the world do you need to not only push some one as it says the push is designed to test but while pushing that person you are in the plank position and need to keep you body in a generally straight line and go all the way out to the elbow locked position. If they are truly trying to test someones ability to push someone the push up is a pretty piss poor way to do it so it dosent really matter if the number of pushups goes up or down. And in what real world would you need to push that same person 48 times, or however many is the min. standard for the Army, in a row.
The same goes for the squat jumpers. How is repeatedly doing a squat jump testing the ability to do go from a crouch to being able to run. One you are not going from a crouch to a jump so that part is completely irrelevant and two if it was to test how fast you can go to being able to maneuver than that would actually have to be part of the test which it is not. Not saying it is a bad exercise just that it does not test what they are claiming it does.

Any conclusions that they are going to try and draw from these are bound to be misleading when you start with wrong ideas.

As to the shape of today's military many different things go into that which make a true comparison hard.
First of all the military as a whole has a whole bunch more support MOS's than they used to and right or wrong (wrong in my opinion) many non combat arms units just do not hold themselves to the same physical standards as Infantry. It has always been that way.
Second while I have no doubt that the average person in the military in the past was better long distance runners I also have no doubt that the average member today is stronger and most likely a better sprinter. Which if you break it down are more related to actual combat than long distance running. The two are not necessary connected. Also with the military slowly starting to adopt more of the SOFs physical fitness like programs, things like proper stretching, warm up and agility and change of direction are worked on more. Why is that important you ask. It is because change of direction activities, like real world combat tasks, are where the vast majority of injuries happen. Very few people hurt themselves running in a straight line.

While there is no doubt that todays military fitness is far from perfect and hopefully with the conventional forces slowing down their deployment schedules they can improve upon it, making any type of accurate comparison is rather hard. At least to due it truthfully.

APACHERAT said:

I had a buddy who was with SATCOM in Vietnam.

You would see all of these microwave relay stations from one end of Nam all the way to the other end sitting on top of mountains out in the middle of Indian country. They had to defend their own bases.

There was one base where there just wasn't not enough SATCOM soldiers available to defend the base so they had to bring in the Special Forces and their Montagnard soldiers to defend the base. They built an elaborate trench system around the base so no matter which way Charley came up the mountain they found themselves in a cross fire.

Click to expand...

Yeah, no. 25S rarely go lower than Brigade, at the extreme exception we may get Battalion level, but even so most Active are going Strat, which means large post deployments or major FOBs.

With as few Sierra's as there are in the Army, they're not going to be sticking us on top of mountains by our lonesome. Even if our equipment is outpaced by the AF and Navy, we still got to keep it protected.

The LT need's his facebook, after all.

braindrain said:

There are some pretty glaring issues with the article you posted.
When in the world do you need to not only push some one as it says the push is designed to test but while pushing that person you are in the plank position and need to keep you body in a generally straight line and go all the way out to the elbow locked position. If they are truly trying to test someones ability to push someone the push up is a pretty piss poor way to do it so it dosent really matter if the number of pushups goes up or down. And in what real world would you need to push that same person 48 times, or however many is the min. standard for the Army, in a row.
The same goes for the squat jumpers. How is repeatedly doing a squat jump testing the ability to do go from a crouch to being able to run. One you are not going from a crouch to a jump so that part is completely irrelevant and two if it was to test how fast you can go to being able to maneuver than that would actually have to be part of the test which it is not. Not saying it is a bad exercise just that it does not test what they are claiming it does.

Any conclusions that they are going to try and draw from these are bound to be misleading when you start with wrong ideas.

As to the shape of today's military many different things go into that which make a true comparison hard.
First of all the military as a whole has a whole bunch more support MOS's than they used to and right or wrong (wrong in my opinion) many non combat arms units just do not hold themselves to the same physical standards as Infantry. It has always been that way.
Second while I have no doubt that the average person in the military in the past was better long distance runners I also have no doubt that the average member today is stronger and most likely a better sprinter. Which if you break it down are more related to actual combat than long distance running. The two are not necessary connected. Also with the military slowly starting to adopt more of the SOFs physical fitness like programs, things like proper stretching, warm up and agility and change of direction are worked on more. Why is that important you ask. It is because change of direction activities, like real world combat tasks, are where the vast majority of injuries happen. Very few people hurt themselves running in a straight line.

While there is no doubt that todays military fitness is far from perfect and hopefully with the conventional forces slowing down their deployment schedules they can improve upon it, making any type of accurate comparison is rather hard. At least to due it truthfully.

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You ever been in a hand to hand combat situation ? Lessons learned during WW ll when fighting Japs in hand to hand combat, all of that martial arts they taught you is useless. Wrestling and boxing is a good training.

Ever tried pushing an artillery piece into position or pushing a 6 X out of the mud ?

Squat jumps and squat thrust, being able to go from a prone position to a standing position and having your balance and able to quickly respond in a fraction of a second. Squat thrust are also a good form of punishment.


Stess fractures of the legs and feet were unheard in the military until the mid 1950's. Why, because there was a time when teenagers didn't own a car, when there were no school buses and you walked to school every day. I had to walk three miles to and from high school every day before I turned 16 and bought my first car, a 1956 Chevy for $300.

The WW ll soldier entered the military in better shape than today's recruits. Back then every thing you did was manual labor. You cut your lawn with a push lawnmower. No gas powered engine lawnmowers back then or illegal aliens. Most of the jobs in America were manual labor. Even moving the trash can to the street on trash collection day was manual labor. No plastic trash cans with wheels.

You ever climbed down a cargo net into a LCVP landing craft ? Try climbing up a cargo net. I suppose that's where pull-ups comes in. Do you know how many hundreds of soldiers were killed just trying to climbed down a cargo net during WW ll ?

A 25 mile force march with weapon and full field marching pack was like a Sunday picknick. Now 50 miles starts getting fun. Never did a 150 mile force march in five days but I would have jumped at the challenge. I was born eight years to late to go on that hike.

Circa early 1980's we did 2 mile run, sit-ups, push-ups and the overhead ladder to pass basic training.
All done with Army fatigues and combat boots.

A bigger worry is having reduced standards for women---espeically those who think they are able to do front line infanty combat to the same degree as men. Perhaps one woman out of 10,000 could do that.

I see a large problem from stress injuries as a result of our troops humping too much weight---and over-training our elite forces that force so many out before they can get 20 years in.

Could I pass that test?

With 2 exceptions, no problem. 54 pushups is excellent? I did 62 in my last PT test, and I am 50 years old.

That chart says 54 pushups is "excellent". In the modern test, if you are from 17-21 doing less then 85 pushups is a fail.

300 yard run, great. I can do that and I have some pretty crappy knees. How do they do in a 2-3 mile run?

I can still do 8-10 pullups, I was 15 average in my prime.

The only ones I could not do due to knee injuries are the squat jumps and squat thrusts. Those have been killed long ago because they tend to cause knee injuries.

It also has 79 situps as "excellent". For a guy 17-21 today, he or she has to do 71 as the bare minimum to pass that part of the test.

Sorry, I really do not take that all that seriously. In reality, few who join the military are able to pass those tests.

However, all pass them by the time they pass boot camp. That is one of the key parts of boot camp, to get the fat lazy civilians in shape, and get them into a system that keeps them in shape. When I first joined, I knew plenty of "fat bodies" that joined, and lost insane amounts of weight by the time their time at MCRD was over. One kid lost 80 pounds, and was doing 24 minute 3 mile runs (not great, but a comfortable passing margin). Today he could never have gotten into the military, you must meet all height-weight standards or they will not take you.

1% over body fat allowance? Nope, sorry, you can't join the military.

Do I think that the military today is more fit then it was then? Yes, actually I do.

Back then we had no real "height and weight" standard. That did not come around until the early 1990's when the tape tests started to be used. During most of my time in (1980's), if you failed height and weight, you appeared in front of the CO in your PT gear, and he would visually inspect you to see if you had a "fit military appearance".

Myself, during most of my time in I fell into that category. 5'8", around 185 pounds. My allowance was 181 pounds. After the first time I needed the CO inspection, he would just sign the form, he knew I was not fat. My first unit even had one dude I still remember to this day. Warmed up his bench presses at 200, did 300+ no problem. He was around 6'2", and easily in the 280 pound area. But freaking 4% body fat on a good day. He barely passed runs, but always maxed his pullups and situps. When we got a new CO he had to appear in front of him for the first time the CO said "You have got to be ****ing kidding me!" LCpl Breedlove was not a fast grunt, but he could run carrying 2 of us no problem, and he was in no way "fat", even though he blew the doors off of the height-weight standard.

And when the tape test finally came in around 1992, I had a CO who was determined to kick me out of the corps. He tried for over a year but could find nothing. With this new test he was sure he could prove I was overweight, even though I did not look to be. The standard was 22%, I weighed in at 16% (at the age of 27). So even by the more strict standards of today I would have passed. And hell, bad knees, 50 years old, I still come in at 23% my last test (3% below max for Army, 2% over for Marines). And trust me, if I could still run I would have no problem at being under 21%.

I am not sure why you love tearing down those that are entering the military today. Unlike you, I have worked with the modern soldiers, as well as the Marines of 30 years ago. Are they up to Marine standards? No. But I have no doubt the majority could be if they needed to be.

Jredbaron96 said:

Yeah, no. 25S rarely go lower than Brigade, at the extreme exception we may get Battalion level, but even so most Active are going Strat, which means large post deployments or major FOBs.

With as few Sierra's as there are in the Army, they're not going to be sticking us on top of mountains by our lonesome. Even if our equipment is outpaced by the AF and Navy, we still got to keep it protected.

The LT need's his facebook, after all.

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I was told that during the Vietnam War that SATCOM was the largest Army world wide organization. It's were they sent all of the brainy soldiers.

Flamethrower said:

Circa early 1980's we did 2 mile run, sit-ups, push-ups and the overhead ladder to pass basic training.
All done with Army fatigues and combat boots.

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Funny true story.

In my last active duty unit, I was one of the leaders of the Battalion Recon Team. Our First Sergeant treated us like his little "Infantry Platoon" (he was a former 11B), and I was the only one in the platoon who actually was Infantry (0311). So when they asked me for suggestions for how "Real infantry" does PT, I suggested a once a week "Boots and Utilities" PT run.

The first week, we had no problem. It was hard, we did not run as fast, but most of those loved it. The second week we had this Sergeant First Class from Brigade run us down and demand to know who we were. Our Platoon Sergeant gave him his name and our unit, and we finished the run.

2 days later our Top gets a memo from the Brigade Commanders office. Apparently there was a 4+ year old base/brigade order (this was 5 years ago, I don't remember which any more) that prohibited "organized running" in boots and utilities for more then 300 meters as PT, because of the possible knee injuries. Top actually framed it, said it was one of the most retarded things he had ever heard of (and I agree).

He and I were both "Old School", I became a grunt in 1983, he became a grunt in 1985. And we both remember running and seeing units running back then as such all the time. He had seen it a few years earlier at Benning. But we were both Air Defense now, and apparently running in boots hurts air defenders.

A month or 2 later at the annual "Thanksgiving Post Run", we laughed as all of the Army, Navy, and Air Force units were doing the 6 mile run in PT gear, and half were dying. The Marine Detachment did the run in Boots and Utilities, and lost nobody. But since they were a separate Detachment, the order did not apply to them.

APACHERAT said:

You ever been in a hand to hand combat situation ? Lessons learned during WW ll when fighting Japs in hand to hand combat, all of that martial arts they taught you is useless. Wrestling and boxing is a good training.

Ever tried pushing an artillery piece into position or pushing a 6 X out of the mud ?

Squat jumps and squat thrust, being able to go from a prone position to a standing position and having your balance and able to quickly respond in a fraction of a second. Squat thrust are also a good form of punishment.


Stess fractures of the legs and feet were unheard in the military until the mid 1950's. Why, because there was a time when teenagers didn't own a car, when there were no school buses and you walked to school every day. I had to walk three miles to and from high school every day before I turned 16 and bought my first car, a 1956 Chevy for $300.

The WW ll soldier entered the military in better shape than today's recruits. Back then every thing you did was manual labor. You cut your lawn with a push lawnmower. No gas powered engine lawnmowers back then or illegal aliens. Most of the jobs in America were manual labor. Even moving the trash can to the street on trash collection day was manual labor. No plastic trash cans with wheels.

You ever climbed down a cargo net into a LCVP landing craft ? Try climbing up a cargo net. I suppose that's where pull-ups comes in. Do you know how many hundreds of soldiers were killed just trying to climbed down a cargo net during WW ll ?

A 25 mile force march with weapon and full field marching pack was like a Sunday picknick. Now 50 miles starts getting fun. Never did a 150 mile force march in five days but I would have jumped at the challenge. I was born eight years to late to go on that hike.

Click to expand...

First of all hand to hand combat and how best to do it has absolutely nothing to do with what we were talking about so who cares.

So telling me when you were pushing that arty peice or that truck were you in the push up position. If not than the amount of Push ups you can do has nothing to do with your ability to push those items, not to mention the fact that the push up is mainly a test of chest and shoulder endurance and if you were using mainly your shoulders and chest to move them no wonder you were having such a hard time. Next time use your legs. . Plus pushing a big heavy object is also more a matter of strength not endurance the two do not always go hand in hand.

You are wrong as to what squat jumpers measure. A person can very easily do continues reps of squat jumpers without being able to transition that to being able to go from a crouch to quickly running. One is a continuous repetitive motion while the other one is a fluid change of direction motion. A physical test can only evaluate something that you actually do during the test. Just because one can go from a squat to a jump does not mean he can go from a squat to running quickly.

Once again we see you just outright making up lies to try and push you agenda. Stress fractures were very well known in the military during the 40s and 50s. Dont want to take my word for it. Here you go. make it easy on your self and just read the first paragraph.

Stress Fractures in Athletes - Timothy L. Miller and Christopher C. Kaeding - Google Books

Here let me try and help you out in the future. Making up things that are not only fairly well known but super easy to prove is probably not a good way to try and win an argument. Not only does it make you look silly but also casts a rather large shadow of doubt on every thing else you try and claim.

Look physical fitness is something I happen to know quite a bit about. You are not going to win this.

braindrain said:

First of all hand to hand combat and how best to do it has absolutely nothing to do with what we were talking about so who cares.

So telling me when you were pushing that arty peice or that truck were you in the push up position. If not than the amount of Push ups you can do has nothing to do with your ability to push those items, not to mention the fact that the push up is mainly a test of chest and shoulder endurance and if you were using mainly your shoulders and chest to move them no wonder you were having such a hard time. Next time use your legs. . Plus pushing a big heavy object is also more a matter of strength not endurance the two do not always go hand in hand.

You are wrong as to what squat jumpers measure. A person can very easily do continues reps of squat jumpers without being able to transition that to being able to go from a crouch to quickly running. One is a continuous repetitive motion while the other one is a fluid change of direction motion. A physical test can only evaluate something that you actually do during the test. Just because one can go from a squat to a jump does not mean he can go from a squat to running quickly.

Once again we see you just outright making up lies to try and push you agenda. Stress fractures were very well known in the military during the 40s and 50s. Dont want to take my word for it. Here you go. make it easy on your self and just read the first paragraph.

Stress Fractures in Athletes - Timothy L. Miller and Christopher C. Kaeding - Google Books

Here let me try and help you out in the future. Making up things that are not only fairly well known but super easy to prove is probably not a good way to try and win an argument. Not only does it make you look silly but also casts a rather large shadow of doubt on every thing else you try and claim.

Look physical fitness is something I happen to know quite a bit about. You are not going to win this.

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You are aware your link backs up my claim ? The recruits were less physically fit before enlistment. Stress fractures increased during the 1950's.

APACHERAT said:

You are aware your link backs up my claim ? The recruits were less physically fit before enlistment. Stress fractures increased during the 1950's.

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You might want to reread what you posted. Here let me help you

Stess fractures of the legs and feet were unheard in the military until the mid 1950's.

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So tell me how exactly is it that they were unheard in the military prior to mid 1950s but yet they were described commonly in the 1940s. Commonly does not mean the same thing as unheard of. You know that right?
It is common knowledge that we as a society are getting more and more out of shape. No one disputes that. It is also common knowledge that stress fractures often result when people who are not used to running start putting to many miles on to quickly. Even people who are in great shape who greatly increase the amount of miles they are running are at an increased risk for stress fractures. Anyone who knows anything about fitness knows this.
I never once said anything about the recruits coming into the military or the shape that they are in. So none of that has anything to do with what we are talking about. We are talking about the fitness level of the military not just recruits because the military is not made up of people who are still recruits.

Look I agree that the military on average outside of combat arms is not as physically fit as combat arms units in the past and they may or not be as good as the support MOS's of the past. The point is that what your article was doing is using a lot of things that are simply not true to try and prove a point. Just like you saying that stress fractures are unheard of in the military prior to the mid 50s. When you use things that are not true it calls into question every claim you make.

I look forward to what your next distraction will be.

APACHERAT said:

Don't be shy Jango, how many push-ups were you able to do ?

When I entered boot camp I was able to do 100. By the end of boot camp I was down to 80 push-ups but I increased in pull-ups, sit-ups and running.

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4 hours worth.

braindrain said:

You might want to reread what you posted. Here let me help you
So tell me how exactly is it that they were unheard in the military prior to mid 1950s but yet they were described commonly in the 1940s. Commonly does not mean the same thing as unheard of. You know that right?
It is common knowledge that we as a society are getting more and more out of shape. No one disputes that. It is also common knowledge that stress fractures often result when people who are not used to running start putting to many miles on to quickly. Even people who are in great shape who greatly increase the amount of miles they are running are at an increased risk for stress fractures. Anyone who knows anything about fitness knows this.
I never once said anything about the recruits coming into the military or the shape that they are in. So none of that has anything to do with what we are talking about. We are talking about the fitness level of the military not just recruits because the military is not made up of people who are still recruits.

Look I agree that the military on average outside of combat arms is not as physically fit as combat arms units in the past and they may or not be as good as the support MOS's of the past. The point is that what your article was doing is using a lot of things that are simply not true to try and prove a point. Just like you saying that stress fractures are unheard of in the military prior to the mid 50s. When you use things that are not true it calls into question every claim you make.

I look forward to what your next distraction will be.

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Well I should have posted "almost unheard of." It was unheard of by the vast majority of Americans until it was published in the newspapers during the 1950's.

>" After World War II, many Americans worried that U.S. citizens, especially the young, were growing overweight and out of shape. The nation's economy had changed dramatically, and with it the nature of work and recreation changed. Mechanization had taken many farmers out of the fields and much of the physical labor out of farm work. Fewer factory jobs demanded heavy labor. Television required watching rather than doing. Americans were beginning to confront a new image of themselves and their country, and they did not always like what they saw.

A New Federal Agency Shapes Up

As a military man, President Dwight D. Eisenhower was probably already sensitive to the issue of physical fitness. Military officers grumbled about the condition of draftees during World War II and the Korean War. But concern about fitness peaked in the mid-1950s with publication of an international study that found American children far less fit than children in other countries. In response, President Eisenhower established the President's Council on Youth Fitness with Executive Order 10673, issued on July 16, 1956..."<

Excerpt:

The Fifty-Mile Hike

>" Kennedy's success was not just a matter of bureaucratic changes. Unlike his predecessor, Kennedy addressed the issue of physical fitness frequently in his public pronouncements and assigned new projects to the council. Perhaps his most famous intervention in the area of fitness was the fifty-mile hike. In late 1962, President Kennedy discovered an executive order from Theodore Roosevelt challenging U.S. Marine officers to finish fifty miles in twenty hours. Kennedy passed the document to Marine Gen. David M. Shoup. The president suggested that Shoup bring it up as his own discovery and challenge modern day marines to duplicate this feat. Kennedy went on to say that:
Should your report to me indicate that the strength and stamina of the modern Marine is at least equivalent to that of his antecedents, I will then ask Mr. Salinger to look into the matter personally and give me a report on the fitness of the White House Staff..."<

The Federal Government Takes on Physical Fitness - John F. Kennedy Presidential Library & Museum


Observations: What happened to President Kennedy’s Physical Fitness Program?