Can there ever be a Muslim Democracy? (1 Viewer)

[tecoyah]

The more I try to understand the Qu'ran, the less likelyhood I see of cooperation between Secular dissagreement on interpretation. This coupled with the power of the Prophets words to keep large portions of the devout from adapting to the realities of Democracy give me little hope of any reform in the Muslim world. It seems the few steps taken to "Modernize" the religion, are shortly recinded by Clerical influence, or ignored by the population as a general rule, often creating the seeds of Violence against a minority attempting to create change.
When I see things like this:

"Thousands Rally Over Pakistan Rape Law

"KARACHI, Pakistan Dec 11, 2006 (AP)— More than 20,000 supporters of an Islamic alliance rallied Sunday, demanding the government withdraw changes to a controversial rape statute that they say go against Islam.

The protesters condemned President Gen. Pervez Musharraf, many chanting "Death to Musharraf." One carried a sign reading, "No to conspiracy for indecency and obscenity."

Musharraf last week signed into law some amendments to the Hudood Ordinance, a 1979 law against rape that human rights activists said punished rape victims while providing legal safeguards for their attackers.

The ordinance required a rape victim to produce four witnesses in court to prove her assault claim. Under the new amendment, judges can choose whether a rape case should be tried in a criminal court where the four-witness rule does not apply or under the Islamic ordinance.

The new law also drops the death penalty for sex outside of marriage. The offense now would be punishable with five years in prison or a fine of $165. "

I see only a backwards slide towards yesteryear, and lose hope for a Muslim incorporation of Modern Ideals. It is obvious the "People of Islam" are quite capable of adapting the religion to change (I know three Muslim U.S. citizens who I respect quite a bit), But the Clerics of the Middle East seem to want to prevent exposure to world thinking on freedom. So onto my Question (end of rant).


Is there Hope for a Democracy within Islam?

 

[GarzaUK]

What about Turkey??? They are busting a democratic gut to get into the EU?? Even backing off regards to Cyrpus and capital punishment (that the EU opposes unamiously). Turkey is perhaps the only secular Islamic country in the world. Indonesia isn't doing too bad either, still has a long way to go.

It is hard for Islam to demand to take in all our ways of live in a short space of time, they have only really been in our society since WW2 a mere 60 years.
For example Western capitalism is already putting strains on Hindu family traditions now as we speak. Women are becoming career oriented now in India rather than housewives and that is not too popular among Indian men...but it will change.

Islam still hasn't identified how it yet can be Western and Muslim at the same time. They will learn with time... just like WE had to learn with time.

 

[tecoyah]

What about Turkey??? They are busting a democratic gut to get into the EU?? Even backing off regards to Cyrpus and capital punishment (that the EU opposes unamiously). Turkey is perhaps the only secular Islamic country in the world. Indonesia isn't doing too bad either, still has a long way to go.

Excellent points...In Turkey, at least...Ali Bardakoglu, has distanced himself quite nicely from the Fundamentalists midset and set a moderate course which seems to be working well. And in Indonesia the Government itself seems to be intent on removing the "Extreme" Islam component.

 

[Volker]

Polls should have at least one useful option.

Islam and democracy can match very well.

There don't have to be a Caliph or a Sultan in Islam.

This poll does not have one useful option.

 

[tecoyah]

Polls should have at least one useful option.

Islam and democracy can match very well.

There don't have to be a Caliph or a Sultan in Islam.

This poll does not have one useful option.

Actually....It would seem option #1 would serve your needs quite well, as intended by the poll. This is unless you feel Islam is already well established as a Democratic Theology, and there are fully functional Islamic based Democratic Governments in place. If indeed you feel there should be another option in this poll that I may have overlooked...please note it here, and with luck a Mod will add it to the choices. Unlike many here, this poll is intended to help me gain insight, and perhaps generate discussion on the Issue. Perhaps you might help guide it toward this goal, rather than Bashing the intent.

We could start by expanding on this:

"There don't have to be a Caliph or a Sultan in Islam"

And go from there.

 

[Volker]

Actually....It would seem option #1 would serve your needs quite well, as intended by the poll. This is unless you feel Islam is already well established as a Democratic Theology, and there are fully functional Islamic based Democratic Governments in place. If indeed you feel there should be another option in this poll that I may have overlooked...please note it here, and with luck a Mod will add it to the choices. Unlike many here, this poll is intended to help me gain insight, and perhaps generate discussion on the Issue.

If the question is "Can there ever be a Muslim Democracy?", than a logical option would be "Yes, there can be one."

Perhaps you might help guide it toward this goal, rather than Bashing the intent.

What does this growing pain mean. Isn't it that all your options include a negative statement about Islam?

 

[tecoyah]

If the question is "Can there ever be a Muslim Democracy?", than a logical option would be "Yes, there can be one."

What does this growing pain mean. Isn't it that all your options include a negative statement about Islam?

Well...lets see. Theres the opening statement pointing to my conclusions about the actual Topic, which ...if you actually read it would explain the intent of the Poll, as well as my personal feelings based on my own research and observations...we call it opinion. As for "Growing Pains", I can only assume you are looking for a reason to be argumentative, as this is a term one needs to work very hard to view as a Negative unless they are simply dimwitted (no, I am not calling you a dimwit).

grow /groʊ/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[groh] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation verb, grew, grown, grow·ing.
–verb (used without object)
1. to increase by natural development, as any living organism or part by assimilation of nutriment; increase in size or substance.
2. to form and increase in size by a process of inorganic accretion, as by crystallization.
3. to arise or issue as a natural development from an original happening, circumstance, or source: Our friendship grew from common interests.
4. to increase gradually in size, amount, etc.; become greater or larger; expand: His influence has grown.

pain /peɪn/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[peyn] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–noun
1. physical suffering or distress, as due to injury, illness, etc.
2. a distressing sensation in a particular part of the body: a back pain.
3. mental or emotional suffering or torment: I am sorry my news causes you such pain.
4. pains,
a. laborious or careful efforts; assiduous care: Great pains have been taken to repair the engine perfectly.
b. the suffering of childbirth.
5. Informal. an annoying or troublesome person or thing.
–verb (used with object)
6. to cause physical pain to; hurt.
7. to cause (someone) mental or emotional pain; distress: Your sarcasm pained me.
–verb (used without object)
8. to have or give pain.


So...we can infer the growth is not entirely painfree, and in fact hurts quite a bit. To me this expresses quite well the path to Democracy taking place in the Middle Eastern Muslim Nations. If you have a more exacting description of what is taking place....I'm all eyes.

 

[Volker]

So...we can infer the growth is not entirely painfree, and in fact hurts quite a bit.

I grew for like 17 years or so and I can tell you it does not hurt at all. I did not even notice. I admit, I have not much memory about the first years.

To me this expresses quite well the path to Democracy taking place in the Middle Eastern Muslim Nations. If you have a more exacting description of what is taking place....I'm all eyes.

I still don't get this painful growing thing. What is so special about Middle Eastern Muslim countries? I don't see a fundamental difference with how things develop in Africa's South, Europe or Latin America.

 

[dragonslayer]

I understand that Malaysia is Muslim Democracy. the Key is to have a nonsectarian government where ministers are not involved in governemt.
They ideal for me is the United States Constitution.

I believe that if the USA, was taken over by christians or muslims, we would cease to be a Democracy, and I am a Christian.

This might sound strange, but if man came along that performed all sorts of wonderful miracles, and some how to be Jesus christ, I would worship him, but I would not vote for him as president.

 

[tecoyah]

I grew for like 17 years or so and I can tell you it does not hurt at all. I did not even notice. I admit, I have not much memory about the first years.

I still don't get this painful growing thing.

That is quite evident...I will attempt to clarify. The mindset which forms the basis of the Qu'ran is not condusive to the freedoms expected in this Modern world of Equality, and personal expression. Though I can interpret the words of the Prophet to allow for such things as, Womens Rights and non-violence, the Clerics most vocal and respected by the Fundys do not allow for such interpretation (mind you I can only read an english version of the Qu'ran, and it does not translate well).
As a Democracy begins to gain strength, the people themselves become more powerful, and the leadership less so. This will not be taken sitting down by the religious leadership (Clerics), and will pose (is posing) a great hurdle to be crossed before true democratic reform can become a reality. Coupled with this difficulty, are the sectarian inbattles which prevent true consensus from ever reaching a table....let alone compromise in discussion.
The growing pains I indicate, encompass the struggle to change an uncompromising leadership, in an effort to become a part of todays worldwide community. I include everything from a woman not showing skin, to hate filled jargon spread by those in power expressing a wish for world domination of the Islamic faith. 50 yrs from now we will likely have no need for this discussion, as the drama will have played out....but here we are.

What is so special about Middle Eastern Muslim countries? I don't see a fundamental difference with how things develop in Africa's South, Europe or Latin America.

There is no "Fundamental" difference, But there is certainly a quantative difference. If you honestly cannot see the obvious importance of the Middle East in how the cards are going to fall....you are not worth debating on this issue.

 

[Volker]

There is no "Fundamental" difference, But there is certainly a quantative difference. If you honestly cannot see the obvious importance of the Middle East in how the cards are going to fall....you are not worth debating on this issue.

Ok, I tried to debate, you try something else, I stop here.

 

[tecoyah]

Ok, I tried to debate, you try something else, I stop here.

It would seem our perspective Ideas of what debate entails are.....different. Mine includes an exchange of Ideas, followed by discussion of the Ideas, often attempting to prove an error in an opponents stance.

Yours seems to be...uh...asking questions unrelated to the actual topic....followed by snippy attempts at childhood humor which fall short of the goal, and ending with a bow out when your opposition decides not to play tit for tat, and argue.

You are way out of your league....perhaps you made a wise choice.

 

[Volker]

It would seem our perspective Ideas of what debate entails are.....different. Mine includes an exchange of Ideas, followed by discussion of the Ideas, often attempting to prove an error in an opponents stance.

Yours seems to be...uh...asking questions unrelated to the actual topic....followed by snippy attempts at childhood humor which fall short of the goal, and ending with a bow out when your opposition decides not to play tit for tat, and argue.

You are way out of your league....perhaps you made a wise choice.

We have a basement for this kind of behavior.

 

[GarzaUK]

There will be true democracy in the middle east, but not for a while. North America and Europe are really the only continents that democracy has got a real foothold. But this is because we have fought for it, we have bled for it, we have been through revolutions for it, we have fought civil wars and world wars for it, we have had civil movements for it. Our process to democracy has hardly been a bed of roses and we forget how fragile democracy as it is.

Which is why the neo-cons idea for a democratic, pro-American Middle East failed. The best democracies are gained by internal mechanisms rather than foreign influence. Who are we to impose our way of life, our Western ideals of liberalism to a culture that is NOT ready for it, that has yet to find a way to incorporate into their culture and their heritage that they have had for thousands of years. Some Americans laugh that we have a monarchy and "worship" an old lady, but you guys don't understand that is what makes us who we are, what defines us and our history. Why should a country anywhere in the world lose a part of their identity from foriegn influence, it is up to the people themselves are they can fit their identity into the bits of foriegn influence they want.

The Middle East will in time turn into a democracy eventually. Any country that does should be rewarded to influence neighbouring countries in the middle east. Democracy cannot be spread by the bomb or bullet or even the ballet box, but only from the people themselves.

 

[tecoyah]

We have a basement for this kind of behavior.

Yes...we do, and my apology for taking you out of your element.

There will be true democracy in the middle east, but not for a while. North America and Europe are really the only continents that democracy has got a real foothold. But this is because we have fought for it, we have bled for it, we have been through revolutions for it, we have fought civil wars and world wars for it, we have had civil movements for it. Our process to democracy has hardly been a bed of roses and we forget how fragile democracy as it is.

Which is why the neo-cons idea for a democratic, pro-American Middle East failed. The best democracies are gained by internal mechanisms rather than foreign influence. Who are we to impose our way of life, our Western ideals of liberalism to a culture that is NOT ready for it, that has yet to find a way to incorporate into their culture and their heritage that they have had for thousands of years. Some Americans laugh that we have a monarchy and "worship" an old lady, but you guys don't understand that is what makes us who we are, what defines us and our history. Why should a country anywhere in the world lose a part of their identity from foriegn influence, it is up to the people themselves are they can fit their identity into the bits of foriegn influence they want.

The Middle East will in time turn into a democracy eventually. Any country that does should be rewarded to influence neighbouring countries in the middle east. Democracy cannot be spread by the bomb or bullet or even the ballet box, but only from the people themselves.

More and more....I too am coming to accept the failure of timing this is turning out to be. It definately seems the attempt to democratize the area is at the least...premature. I very much hope history will show this time as a beginning, much as the American Civil War is to us in hindsight. That said....I will unfortunately be long gone before this piece of history plays itself out.

 

[Kandahar]

Turkey, Kurdistan, and Indonesia are all fully-functional Muslim democracies. There is still hope for Iran and Pakistan.

If you meant ARAB Muslim democracies...that is much harder. Tribalism is so deeply ingrained in Arab culture that I can't see a functional democracy happening in the Arab world for at least several decades. Lebanon is the best hope...mainly because it is the only Arab country that has non-Muslim elements to moderate it.

 

[Jay R]

Excellent points...In Turkey, at least...Ali Bardakoglu, has distanced himself quite nicely from the Fundamentalists midset and set a moderate course which seems to be working well. And in Indonesia the Government itself seems to be intent on removing the "Extreme" Islam component.

I'd take Turkish democracy with a pinch of salt actually guys. The country has a very strong history of military intervention in government to enforce secularism and check the ambitions of Islamism, it's a basis of the Kemalist tradition in Turkish politics. Recently the Erdogan government, an Islamic party presiding over a secular nation, have made a few tentative thrusts to test their power versus the Army and the secularist tradition. Most notable was their refusal to allow the US to operate from Turkey in the 2003 Iraq offensive, but there has also been internal challenges to the Army's authority, for example the government opposed the appointment of General Buyukanit, a pro-Western secularist in the Attaturk tradition, as head of the armed forces.

http://www.metimes.com/storyview.php?StoryID=20060831-102331-7151r

It could be that Turkey's democratic credentials are not quite as solid when not backed up by the force wielded by a secular military. If that is the case then the reforms that the EU is pushing so forcefully, especially reduced military influence over government, could make the country susceptible to an increase of Islamism in politics.

 

[DivineComedy]

Is there Hope for a Democracy within Islam?

I would say that if they ever learned to trust “their” believers, and Allah, they could have a Democracy “within” Islam, like Christians that founded the United States. If belief in Allah is the firmest handle that cannot break off there is hope, but “can believers of Islam trust Democracy?” Believers can’t trust Democracy if Believers don’t trust that their faith is stronger. Like I told a Muslim prior to 911, “A faith is not a faith if it must be forced.”

There must be trust in G-d, to trust Democracy.

Islam is not incompatible with Democracy. There are even verses in the Koran that looked to me favorable to prohibiting the overthrow of the government, once a Democracy is established.

Secularism, at all levels of government, and Democracy are logically incompatible and against the universal laws of nature. If we are secular, we might be like cows to some proportionally smart race out there, therefore, we can‘t have a forbidden food. Secularism is the most dangerous…

If my State (what the Constitution guarantees is a Republican form of government) can NEVER vote to prohibit the press of pornography, cartoons insulting prophets or artists ******* on Jesus, it has no Democracy and I am not enfranchised.

Can there ever be a Muslim Democracy?

Yes. There is hope, as long as overly cerebral people can quit using words like “Western” and “Secular,” as if it must have something to do with it, when discussing Democracy and enfranchisement of voters.

In God we Trust!

Our U.S. Constitution when interpreted as it is written does not forbid an Islamic Republic within the United States. Many people misinterpret what Thomas Jefferson said to the Baptists. There is no separation of Church and State in our Constitution, for the States, only a prohibition of religious tests. Most of the laws we would consider Islamic could still be passed at the state level. An Islamic Republican form of government for instance might prevent Christians from going to the liquor store on Sunday. You might even have a dry county within an Islamic State forbidding Christians from purchasing wine for communion. Laws prohibiting the purchase of wine on Sunday would violate the First Amendment; the word “Congress” is in the First Amendment for a reason. In a Republican form of government, interpreting our Constitution as it is worded, the law could prohibit freedom of the press to publish pornographic cartoons insulting of the prophet.

*****

Do I trust Islam?

Hell NO! There is no clear Golden Rule in the Koran, it is an after thought, which proves it is not inspired by Allah.

“Do unto all men as you would wish to have done unto you; and reject for others what you would reject for yourself."

Do I want all Muslims everywhere to be enfranchised? YES! We can always say “enough is enough,“ and bomb them back to the stone age if their elected representatives chant “Death to America!” We the people can always accuse our President of a “wrong war” when things don‘t go well, and for being stupid, after putting a cowardly yellow post-it-note on the law with the claim that the vote was only for some of the law.

Sorry, can't debate it. Have a nice day.

 

[Volker]

Yes...we do, and my apology for taking you out of your element.

No problem, I feel it home upstairs and downstairs :mrgreen:

 

[Urethra Franklin]

What about Turkey??? They are busting a democratic gut to get into the EU?? Even backing off regards to Cyrpus and capital punishment (that the EU opposes unamiously). Turkey is perhaps the only secular Islamic country in the world. Indonesia isn't doing too bad either, still has a long way to go.

It is hard for Islam to demand to take in all our ways of live in a short space of time, they have only really been in our society since WW2 a mere 60 years.
For example Western capitalism is already putting strains on Hindu family traditions now as we speak. Women are becoming career oriented now in India rather than housewives and that is not too popular among Indian men...but it will change.

Islam still hasn't identified how it yet can be Western and Muslim at the same time. They will learn with time... just like WE had to learn with time.

Garza, excellent post (as ever), and I agree with some of what you say, but I'm going to be a pedant over the term "secular Islamic country" Yes the majority of Turks are muslims but the fact that their state is secular is the key point here. If a state is based on a religion that teaches things such as the word of a woman is worth half that of a man, how can that be truly compatible with democracy? I believe any religious state (Christian, Jewish, Muslim, whatever) is by its very nature discriminatory to the "other" not to mention giving license to the fundamentalists to bring their women hating, gay hating, fun hating agenda into the spheres of law and constitution. A secular state is the best vehicle for providing freedom and equality to all religions and non believers alike. Allow people their churches, their mosques and their temples, but let them keep their religious ideas in their personal lives and out of laws that affect other's freedoms, and I'll never seek to impose my atheism on them.