• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

Can Texas Secede from the U.S.?

Patrickt

DP Veteran
Joined
Jun 28, 2006
Messages
3,595
Reaction score
1,096
Location
Oaxaca, Mexico
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Conservative
" But is it actually legal for Texas to leave the United States?Simply put, the answer is no. Historical and legal precedents make it clear that Texas could not pull off a Texit — at least not legally.
“The legality of seceding is problematic,” said Eric McDaniel, associate professor of government at the University of Texas at Austin. “The Civil War played a very big role in establishing the power of the federal government and cementing that the federal government has the final say in these issues.”
Many historians believe that when the Confederacy surrendered at Appomattox in 1865, the idea of secession was also defeated, according to McDaniel. The Union’s victory set a precedent that states could not legally secede."
https://www.texastribune.org/2016/06/24/can-texas-legally-secede-united-states/

The question was whether or not Texas could secede from the union legally. I don't agree that an invasion and conquest settles the question...legally. I don't question for a moment that Texas could not withstand an invasion by the U.S. government.

But, where in the Constitution does it say the federal government has the right, the authority, to prevent a state from withdrawing? Where does it say that the U.S. is like the Mafia and once you join you can never leave?

Can a state legally, in your opinion, withdraw from the U.S.?
 

Fletch

DP Veteran
Joined
Feb 7, 2012
Messages
46,611
Reaction score
20,937
Location
Mentor Ohio
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Libertarian
The united states is a voluntary union of free states. If a state were to hold a vote of independence and vote to leave, they should be free to do so. Why should Americans send their sons and daughters to die in a war to keep people in who don't want to be here?

There is often talk of places like Puerto Rico voting to join the United States. If a nation can vote to join, does it not stand to reason that they be able to vote to leave?
 
Last edited:

PeteEU

DP Veteran
Joined
Mar 11, 2006
Messages
37,931
Reaction score
13,545
Location
Denmark
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Centrist
The united states is a voluntary union of free states.

Your civil war kinda debunks that theory...

If a state were to hold a vote of independence and vote to leave, they should be free to do so.

that is another matter and creates problems in it self since the "states" are often have made up borders dictated by Washington back in the day. There could easily be parts that dont want too.. then what?

There is often talk of places like Puerto Rico voting to join the United States. If a nation can vote to join, does it not stand to reason that they be able to vote to leave?

Puerto Rico is not a nation.. it is a colony. And there is no real legal process to join the US other than by conquest or acquisition.. both of which most states actually became part of the US.
 

dimensionallava

DP Veteran
Joined
Aug 12, 2015
Messages
6,414
Reaction score
1,524
Gender
Undisclosed
Political Leaning
Communist
Can a state legally, in your opinion, withdraw from the U.S.?

I dont see why anyones opinion would matter, the law clearly says they cant.

"When, therefore, Texas became one of the United States, she entered into an indissoluble relation. All the obligations of perpetual union, and all the guaranties of republican government in the Union, attached at once to the State. The act which consummated her admission into the Union was something more than a compact; it was the incorporation of a new member into the political body. And it was final. The union between Texas and the other States was as complete, as perpetual, and as indissoluble as the union between the original States. There was no place for reconsideration or revocation, except through revolution or through consent of the States" -Chief Justice Salmon Chase 1869

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Texas_v._White
 

Tigerace117

DP Veteran
Joined
Mar 30, 2016
Messages
61,243
Reaction score
16,273
Location
Chicago
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Independent
" But is it actually legal for Texas to leave the United States?Simply put, the answer is no. Historical and legal precedents make it clear that Texas could not pull off a Texit — at least not legally.
“The legality of seceding is problematic,” said Eric McDaniel, associate professor of government at the University of Texas at Austin. “The Civil War played a very big role in establishing the power of the federal government and cementing that the federal government has the final say in these issues.”
Many historians believe that when the Confederacy surrendered at Appomattox in 1865, the idea of secession was also defeated, according to McDaniel. The Union’s victory set a precedent that states could not legally secede."
https://www.texastribune.org/2016/06/24/can-texas-legally-secede-united-states/

The question was whether or not Texas could secede from the union legally. I don't agree that an invasion and conquest settles the question...legally. I don't question for a moment that Texas could not withstand an invasion by the U.S. government.

But, where in the Constitution does it say the federal government has the right, the authority, to prevent a state from withdrawing? Where does it say that the U.S. is like the Mafia and once you join you can never leave?

Can a state legally, in your opinion, withdraw from the U.S.?

No. The Civil War proved that.
 

Beaudreaux

Preserve Protect Defend
Supporting Member
DP Veteran
Joined
Sep 13, 2012
Messages
18,233
Reaction score
15,861
Location
veni, vidi, volo - now back in NC
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Undisclosed
" But is it actually legal for Texas to leave the United States?Simply put, the answer is no. Historical and legal precedents make it clear that Texas could not pull off a Texit — at least not legally.
“The legality of seceding is problematic,” said Eric McDaniel, associate professor of government at the University of Texas at Austin. “The Civil War played a very big role in establishing the power of the federal government and cementing that the federal government has the final say in these issues.”
Many historians believe that when the Confederacy surrendered at Appomattox in 1865, the idea of secession was also defeated, according to McDaniel. The Union’s victory set a precedent that states could not legally secede."
https://www.texastribune.org/2016/06/24/can-texas-legally-secede-united-states/

The question was whether or not Texas could secede from the union legally. I don't agree that an invasion and conquest settles the question...legally. I don't question for a moment that Texas could not withstand an invasion by the U.S. government.

But, where in the Constitution does it say the federal government has the right, the authority, to prevent a state from withdrawing? Where does it say that the U.S. is like the Mafia and once you join you can never leave?

Can a state legally, in your opinion, withdraw from the U.S.?

Not without consent of the other states, or without a revolution, as held by the US Supreme Court in Texas v. White:

When, therefore, Texas became one of the United States, she entered into an indissoluble relation. All the obligations of perpetual union, and all the guaranties of republican government in the Union, attached at once to the State. The act which consummated her admission into the Union was something more than a compact; it was the incorporation of a new member into the political body. And it was final. The union between Texas and the other States was as complete, as perpetual, and as indissoluble as the union between the original States. There was no place for reconsideration or revocation, except through revolution or through consent of the States.
 

Fletch

DP Veteran
Joined
Feb 7, 2012
Messages
46,611
Reaction score
20,937
Location
Mentor Ohio
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Libertarian
Your civil war kinda debunks that theory...
Except it doesn't.



that is another matter and creates problems in it self since the "states" are often have made up borders dictated by Washington back in the day. There could easily be parts that dont want too.. then what?
They might have to leave the country of Texas if they wished to remain in the United States.



Puerto Rico is not a nation.. it is a colony. And there is no real legal process to join the US other than by conquest or acquisition.. both of which most states actually became part of the US.
There is no legal process to join and no legal process to leave. If Canada held a referendum and voted to join the US, they would not instantly become the 51st state. Congress, I suppose, would have to authorize it. Likewise, if Texas voted to leave, congress would not likely go along. What would happen next is anyones guess. War is a possibility, but simply allowing them to leave seems a far better alternative.
 

dimensionallava

DP Veteran
Joined
Aug 12, 2015
Messages
6,414
Reaction score
1,524
Gender
Undisclosed
Political Leaning
Communist

giphy.gif
 

dimensionallava

DP Veteran
Joined
Aug 12, 2015
Messages
6,414
Reaction score
1,524
Gender
Undisclosed
Political Leaning
Communist
Thanks for that. I will have to read the entire ruling when I get the chance. That said, the whole "perpetual and indissoluble' argument seems a bit thin to me and more opinion than anything that can be supported in fact

The South will not rise again.... get over it already
 

AtlantaAdonis

DP Veteran
Joined
Aug 13, 2011
Messages
2,315
Reaction score
629
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Progressive
Secession doesn't have to be legal. Once you secede you aren't bound by US law anymore.
 

Gaugingcatenate

Banned
DP Veteran
Joined
Apr 20, 2013
Messages
12,331
Reaction score
1,941
Location
Formerly of the Southern USA, now permanently in t
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Conservative
Your civil war kinda debunks that theory...



that is another matter and creates problems in it self since the "states" are often have made up borders dictated by Washington back in the day. There could easily be parts that dont want too.. then what?



Puerto Rico is not a nation.. it is a colony. And there is no real legal process to join the US other than by conquest or acquisition.. both of which most states actually became part of the US.
Sorry, the Civil War only settled the matter until it comes up again. Might doesn't make right, as the saying goes. Had Britain won the War of 1812, things would probably have been a lot different than now in what was then, and because we were not beaten still is, the USA.

Secondly, the CW did not change the Constitution. Well, they did legally amend it to abolish slavery with the 13th, the 14th was a travesty not ratified in any shape, matter or form correctly under Article V guidelines... but that was just an indication of what overreaching federal power does without a strong states system to counter it.

States were totally sovereign prior to the Constitution. They gave up small, specifically enumerated pieces of their completely sovereign pies to become a union. Promises were made, in fact it should be considered a legally binding contract. If there is a breach from either side, the contract is broken and either or both sides should have the ability to withdraw. The Articles of Confederation, which promulgated the original myth of perpetual union, was tossed and one that states nothing of the sort, our current Constitution, was put in its place... so much for perpetual union.

Of course the Federal government is going to say its power can never be diminished much less divided and withdrawn.

Please regale us with the facts supporting that last statement of yours. Texas, the state about which brings up this topic, along with the original 13 were all free, independent and sovereign states who chose to join the union.
 

Beaudreaux

Preserve Protect Defend
Supporting Member
DP Veteran
Joined
Sep 13, 2012
Messages
18,233
Reaction score
15,861
Location
veni, vidi, volo - now back in NC
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Undisclosed
Thanks for that. I will have to read the entire ruling when I get the chance. That said, the whole "perpetual and indissoluble' argument seems a bit thin to me and more opinion than anything that can be supported in fact

There's no part in the Constitution that specifically prevents secession. However, the authority of who may decide if a territory may join the union is found in the Constitution in Article IV, Section 3, Clause 1: New States may be admitted by the Congress into this Union; but no new State shall be formed or erected within the Jurisdiction of any other State; nor any State be formed by the Junction of two or more States, or Parts of States, without the Consent of the Legislatures of the States concerned as well as of the Congress.


This should be the same or similar procedure for a state to leave the union. In regard to Puerto Rico, they hold a plebiscite every 10 or so years regarding status. Each time they do, statehood gains more and more votes. So far, it hasn't gained a majority, however. Once it does, then the government of Puerto Rico will petition the Congress for inclusion in the union as a state under the authority of Article IV, Section 3, Clause 1.

I would imagine, that if a state had a vote of its citizens to leave the union, and Congress had a vote approving it, the state would be out of the union. Although, if there were certain counties that voted to stay in the union, they may could petition to be annexed by an adjacent state and by doing so stay within the United States. Regardless, it would be a serious mess.
 

Tigerace117

DP Veteran
Joined
Mar 30, 2016
Messages
61,243
Reaction score
16,273
Location
Chicago
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Independent
It only proved Lincoln wouldn't let it happen. Would Obama or Hillary fight a civil war?

Yeah, they would. And I'm betting the vast majority of American citizens would support it.
 

Crovax

DP Veteran
Joined
Feb 15, 2014
Messages
19,092
Reaction score
11,186
Location
South Texas
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Conservative
Yeah, they would. And I'm betting the vast majority of American citizens would support it.

The vast majority of America won't support our soldiers fighting terrorists and you think they would supporting fighting Texas/the south?
 

Tigerace117

DP Veteran
Joined
Mar 30, 2016
Messages
61,243
Reaction score
16,273
Location
Chicago
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Independent
The vast majority of America won't support our soldiers fighting terrorists and you think they would supporting fighting Texas/the south?

Where is this "vast majority"?

Are you talking about boots on the ground against ISIS?

It's a very different thing to be fighting a war thousands of miles overseas vs fighting a war to preserve your country at home.
 

Fletch

DP Veteran
Joined
Feb 7, 2012
Messages
46,611
Reaction score
20,937
Location
Mentor Ohio
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Libertarian
There's no part in the Constitution that specifically prevents secession. However, the authority of who may decide if a territory may join the union is found in the Constitution in Article IV, Section 3, Clause 1: New States may be admitted by the Congress into this Union; but no new State shall be formed or erected within the Jurisdiction of any other State; nor any State be formed by the Junction of two or more States, or Parts of States, without the Consent of the Legislatures of the States concerned as well as of the Congress.


This should be the same or similar procedure for a state to leave the union. In regard to Puerto Rico, they hold a plebiscite every 10 or so years regarding status. Each time they do, statehood gains more and more votes. So far, it hasn't gained a majority, however. Once it does, then the government of Puerto Rico will petition the Congress for inclusion in the union as a state under the authority of Article IV, Section 3, Clause 1.

I would imagine, that if a state had a vote of its citizens to leave the union, and Congress had a vote approving it, the state would be out of the union. Although, if there were certain counties that voted to stay in the union, they may could petition to be annexed by an adjacent state and by doing so stay within the United States. Regardless, it would be a serious mess.

Agreed. It would be a mess. I am looking at it purely theoretically. If you have a collection of free state who voluntarily enter into an a union, any one of them should be free to leave that union if they decide to do so. Basically, if you don't like it here, leave.
 

Patrickt

DP Veteran
Joined
Jun 28, 2006
Messages
3,595
Reaction score
1,096
Location
Oaxaca, Mexico
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Conservative
Nope. Texas v. White already settled this issue.

I haven't read the decision yet but I question whether a decision by one side in a conflict is binding on the other side.

From Texas vs. White
"In deciding the merits of the bond issue, the court further held that theConstitution did not permit statesto unilaterally secede from the United States, and that the ordinances of secession, and all the acts of the legislatures within seceding states intended to give effect to such ordinances, were "absolutely null".[SUP][2]"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Texas_v._White

Okay, the Constitution does not permit the states to secede. Does it prohibit the states from seceding? If it doesn't, all rights not specifically granted to the federal government are retained by the states.

[/SUP]

The Texas vs. White decision was made in 1869 when the legal atmosphere might not have been disinterested.
 
Last edited:

Crovax

DP Veteran
Joined
Feb 15, 2014
Messages
19,092
Reaction score
11,186
Location
South Texas
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Conservative
Where is this "vast majority"?

Are you talking about boots on the ground against ISIS?

It's a very different thing to be fighting a war thousands of miles overseas vs fighting a war to preserve your country at home.

You are clearly out of touch with reality if you think people would rather kill Texans than terrorists.
 
Top Bottom