Can gay people have babies

[Pacridge]

Re: Enough Of The Rhetoric And Diatribe!

Look, gays/lesbians can and do have babies!

If you don't believe me, just ask my sixteen year old son!
I didn't adopt him, I didn't go through expensive invetro-fertilization.

No, insted I grew up in the midwest during the 1960's - 1980's. I was a victim of a social structure that taugh little girls that being gay was bad or sick. So, to seem "normal" I dated guys and eventually even married one. We had a child..and all the while I hoped beyond hope that somehow doing so would "cure" me of my being a lesbian.
I knew who I was but couldn't accept it.
Not until I found myself divorced and faced with the very real moral dilema of raising my son alone. I had to decide how I would raise him, whether to raise him to learn to lie about himself and hate himself or to raise him to be comfortable in his own skin and be honest.
To do that I had to set the example.

Luckily I was blessed with supportive and loving family and friends.
I found real love of my life, and for the past eight years we have raised an honest, well adjusted, happy, healthy, compassionate, hard working young man.
Not only CAN gays and lesbians become parents, we do at ever increasing rates!

What's even better is that we are raising children who are happy, healthy, well loved and well informed!

We adopt, foster, raise our own flesh and blood as well as children of family members. Our children are safe, well educated, honest, caring, NORMAL!
There is no statistics showing that gay and lesbian parents raise children to "become" gay or lesbian, no more so than do straight parents!
...what's even funnier about the whole thing...

I was raised by STRAIGHT PARENTS! Guess what?

I'm gay!

Welcome to Debate Politics!

Well said.

 

[Pacridge]

Re: Enough Of The Rhetoric And Diatribe!

Hi Justine! Welcome to our little part of the world! :wcm

Great post! I hope that your beautifully written words will get through to some of the homophobes that we have here....Even if they do not, please know that you're reaching a lot of people and reinforcing what we already know, namely that one's sexual orientation has absolutely nothing to do with parenting....

Well said- ditto that. Oh crap! I would hate to be considered a "ditto head". Strike that "ditto" comment. I stand by the "well said."

 

[RightinNYC]

If that were only true. Wasn't too long ago that a gay man in the state of Wyoming was beaten, tied to a fence in the middle of winter and left for dead. Where he indeed did die. I'd say that's more than just being threatened.

People are killed every day for being gay, black, Jewish, arab, hispanic, white, etc etc. "Hate crimes" happen all the time, but to say that it's not safe to be openly gay is a bit over the top.

 

[Pacridge]

People are killed every day for being gay, black, Jewish, arab, hispanic, white, etc etc. "Hate crimes" happen all the time, but to say that it's not safe to be openly gay is a bit over the top.

I'm sure Matthew Shepard will be glad to hear that, it's the same argument separatist made while the extremist of their movement were lynching black men.

 

[RightinNYC]

I'm sure Matthew Shepard will be glad to hear that, it's the same argument separatist made while the extremist of their movement were lynching black men.

Matthew Shepard was killed nearly 7 years ago. I'm not making the claim that this wasn't a horrible act, but rather simply that to cite it as evidence that it's dangerous to be gay is a bit much.

 

[Pacridge]

Matthew Shepard was killed nearly 7 years ago. I'm not making the claim that this wasn't a horrible act, but rather simply that to cite it as evidence that it's dangerous to be gay is a bit much.

So how many would need to be killed and how recent would the killings need to be for it to be "dangerous?"

 

[RightinNYC]

So how many would need to be killed and how recent would the killings need to be for it to be "dangerous?"

If a kid in Harlem was killed for being white today, would that mean it is dangerous to be white?

 

[Pacridge]

If a kid in Harlem was killed for being white today, would that mean it is dangerous to be white?

If he/she was killed because they were white then yes in Harlem it would be dangerous to be white. The thing is gays are being killed all over- just for being openly gay. It happened in Vancouver BC not too long ago. So it isn't happening only in the US either.

 

[RightinNYC]

If he/she was killed because they were white then yes in Harlem it would be dangerous to be white. The thing is gays are being killed all over- just for being openly gay. It happened in Vancouver BC not too long ago. So it isn't happening only in the US either.

My point is that it's not exactly an epidemic. In the vast, vast, vast majority of situations in the US and most civilized nations, someone can be gay without fearing for their life.

 

[ShamMol]

My point is that it's not exactly an epidemic. In the vast, vast, vast majority of situations in the US and most civilized nations, someone can be gay without fearing for their life.

But doesn't it show the hate that exists? Not that they have to be fearful, just to be careful and know that they are hated by some who do not accept?

 

[RightinNYC]

But doesn't it show the hate that exists? Not that they have to be fearful, just to be careful and know that they are hated by some who do not accept?

If a midget is killed because some drunk back woods asshole hates midgets, should midgets across the nation start being careful because that means there's a danger in being who they are?

If it happens twice, or even 5 times, is that enough to warrant midgets nationwide being scared of being who they are?

I know dozens of gay people, and not a single one is scared in the slightest for their own safety. They're scared that they might have a harder time getting a job/raising kids/getting married, but that's another story.

 

[JustineCredible]

Re: Enough Of The Rhetoric And Diatribe!

Hi Justine! Welcome to our little part of the world! :wcm

Great post! I hope that your beautifully written words will get through to some of the homophobes that we have here....Even if they do not, please know that you're reaching a lot of people and reinforcing what we already know, namely that one's sexual orientation has absolutely nothing to do with parenting....

t
Thank you 26, I appreciate the warm welcome. I know that forums are a great way to reach people who you wouldn't get a chance to meet in everyday life.
I look forward to posting here as well as reading the replies. :2wave:

 

[JustineCredible]

If a midget is killed because some drunk back woods asshole hates midgets, should midgets across the nation start being careful because that means there's a danger in being who they are?

If it happens twice, or even 5 times, is that enough to warrant midgets nationwide being scared of being who they are?

I know dozens of gay people, and not a single one is scared in the slightest for their own safety. They're scared that they might have a harder time getting a job/raising kids/getting married, but that's another story.

I've been reading your little tiff here and still don't see exactly how it relates to gay parenting at all. But, I'll gladly through my two cents in.

The thing is, you may not know if your dozen or so gay friends are actually scared without asking them point blank. You're making a generalized assumption by the way they act. Not once concidering any number of factors;

1) Where you live

If you live in suburbia, the imediate threat may not be quite as much as say in a more urban area where gays are indeed attacked on a daily basis.

2)Your friends may hide it very well
Especially from you because you actually are that threat.

3) How close of friends are these people you say you know?

Just because you know them doesn't mean you're close friends with them. It doesn't mean you hang out with them on a daily basis or even know them all that well.

 

[RightinNYC]

The thing is, you may not know if your dozen or so gay friends are actually scared without asking them point blank. You're making a generalized assumption by the way they act. Not once concidering any number of factors;

1) Where you live

If you live in suburbia, the imediate threat may not be quite as much as say in a more urban area where gays are indeed attacked on a daily basis.

Well, that's an interesting theory. Except I live in the West Village, a block from Christopher Street. I don't think it gets more urban/gay accepting than that. Gays are far more accepted in urban situations than rural, so I don't know where you're coming from in that claim. And where exactly are gays attacked on a daily basis? I must be missing this in the daily news. Unless you just pulled that claim out of the air.

2)Your friends may hide it very well
Especially from you because you actually are that threat.

3) How close of friends are these people you say you know?

Just because you know them doesn't mean you're close friends with them. It doesn't mean you hang out with them on a daily basis or even know them all that well.

Really? Well, I'm glad you know my friends better than I do, well enough, in fact, to let me know that I'm a threat to them. I don't see the need for me to detail to you the relationships I have, or to justify to you how close I am to anyone. So feel free to keep your baseless judgements to yourself.

How on EARTH do you perceive me as a "threat" to them? Have you even read what I'm saying on this thread? Someone else is making the claim that gay people should be scared to admit who they are because it's dangerous. I'm claiming that that's foolish, and that people should be who they are without unjustified fear from bogeymen that don't actually exist. I've said it before and I'll say it again:

There is no increased "danger" of hate crimes in being gay than there is in being black, jewish, arab, hispanic, or any other minority.

Care to prove me wrong, or do you just have a few more comments about the threat I pose to my friends?

I've been reading your little tiff here and still don't see exactly how it relates to gay parenting at all. But, I'll gladly through my two cents in.

Well, thank you very much, but I think I'll "through" them back.

 

[JustineCredible]

Well, that's an interesting theory. Except I live in the West Village, a block from Christopher Street. I don't think it gets more urban/gay accepting than that. Gays are far more accepted in urban situations than rural, so I don't know where you're coming from in that claim. And where exactly are gays attacked on a daily basis? I must be missing this in the daily news. Unless you just pulled that claim out of the air.

Don't play coy with me, you know as well as I do that it's simply not reported "in the daily news." Yes, attacks in major cities do indeed happen every day. I work with a gay/lesbian community center in Chicago. We get calls DAILY from gays/lesbians who have been attacked in some way every single day. From a cop who just makes an offhand remark of someone's sexuality while writing a speeding ticket, to the Yuppy on the "L" who punches a lesbian for no apparent reason while spewing sexual orientation epithets.

Really? Well, I'm glad you know my friends better than I do, well enough, in fact, to let me know that I'm a threat to them. I don't see the need for me to detail to you the relationships I have, or to justify to you how close I am to anyone. So feel free to keep your baseless judgements to yourself.

Wow, can we say insecure? I never insinuated what your relationship with your friends was, I was only commenting that indeed by your vague comments there was no way for anyone reading them to know the specifics of your friendships. As far as we know they could just be people you ride the train with on a daily basis and you only know they are gay because they wear a rainbow necklace or something. Gees...you need to take it down a few there darlin. I wasn't attacking you, I was making an observation.

How on EARTH do you perceive me as a "threat" to them?

Again, I didn't say I did see you as a threat. I was once again commenting on the nature of your friendships with these gays. All too many times straights attempt to rationalize their anti' feelings by saying "Oh but I have gay friends and..." Once again you took my observations personally.
I think you need to relax there a bit. Just because you live in NYC doesn't mean everyone is out to get you.
Quit milking the pity party.

Have you even read what I'm saying on this thread? Someone else is making the claim that gay people should be scared to admit who they are because it's dangerous. I'm claiming that that's foolish, and that people should be who they are without unjustified fear from bogeymen that don't actually exist.

You're taking an offhand comment WAY too seriously. The thread itself WAS about gay parenting, but you chose to change the subject and focus on some part of a posters comment that really didn't have anything to do with the topic at hand.

Your defencive comments to me only prove you feel threatened by my having pointed out to you just how pety your argument about "the threat to gays" really is.

IRONY OF ALL IRONIES!
:screwy

 

[RightinNYC]

Don't play coy with me, you know as well as I do that it's simply not reported "in the daily news." Yes, attacks in major cities do indeed happen every day. I work with a gay/lesbian community center in Chicago. We get calls DAILY from gays/lesbians who have been attacked in some way every single day. From a cop who just makes an offhand remark of someone's sexuality while writing a speeding ticket, to the Yuppy on the "L" who punches a lesbian for no apparent reason while spewing sexual orientation epithets.

So I'm "playing coy" because I don't believe you? Sorry, but anecdotal evidence doesn't cut it. If you're going to make that claim and expect me to believe you, you need to back it up. Statistics, news stories, anything?

And, as a side note, the issue we were talking about was the murder of someone simply because of their sexual orientation. While comments made by police officers while writing speeding tickets might be evidence of bigotry, I hardly think it fits in the same category.

Wow, can we say insecure? I never insinuated what your relationship with your friends was, I was only commenting that indeed by your vague comments there was no way for anyone reading them to know the specifics of your friendships. As far as we know they could just be people you ride the train with on a daily basis and you only know they are gay because they wear a rainbow necklace or something. Gees...you need to take it down a few there darlin. I wasn't attacking you, I was making an observation.

Again, I didn't say I did see you as a threat. I was once again commenting on the nature of your friendships with these gays. All too many times straights attempt to rationalize their anti' feelings by saying "Oh but I have gay friends and..." Once again you took my observations personally.
I think you need to relax there a bit. Just because you live in NYC doesn't mean everyone is out to get you.
Quit milking the pity party.

"2)Your friends may hide it very well
Especially from you because you actually are that threat."

It's generally good to remember what you said in previous posts. That's a pretty straightforward attack. I wasn't offended by what you said, because as i previously stated, you know nothing of me, but I was actually bothered that you thought that was a logical conclusion to draw from what I said. I guess that I expected more intelligence from someone who wrote a great first post.

And playing the whole "You pretend to have gay friends to justify your anti-gay feelings" card doesn't really fly with me. It's a ridiculous cop-out.

Why on earth would I be looking for pity? The only reason I was so incredulous at what you claimed was because it was so foolish.

And, just out of curiosity, how would being from NYC make me feel as if everyone were out to get me? That statement confused me.

Your defencive comments to me only prove you feel threatened by my having pointed out to you just how pety your argument about "the threat to gays" really is.

Um, what? Believe me, any "threat" that I might have felt from your debating abilities is long gone...

 

[RightinNYC]

I just read and saw that the person who said that originally isn't the person from NYU, which makes me feel better about going to a worse school than NYU.

Hehehe, no worries. Also: Just cause someone goes to a "good" school doesn't make them smart....trust me. I know kids here who shouldn't have gotten into DeVry, but got in cause of $$$, and plenty of kids with 1600's who are dumber than my left nut. I also have friends that go to community colleges who are farrr smarter than most of the kids here. It's all what you make of it.

 

[Pacridge]

Thanks buddy, gives me a nice piece of mind, considering I needed to go to community college for a year and a half TO GET INTO the University of Iowa.

Hey, I went to community college for two years before going to Oregon State. co. college was cheaper and to be honest I thought a better education all around. The class sizes were smaller and you had more access to the instructor. When I got to Oregon State half the time an assistant would be doing the actual teaching.

 

[RightinNYC]

No, community college was great, I learned a lot, and it also made it so I wanted to learn, considering how sick of it I was after high school. It showed me that there are still interesting things out there, and I had great teachers. My point was that, I'm not sure if you're familiar with the admission standards at University of Iowa, but they're not exactly the highest around (class rank percentage wise + double your ACT score = 100 or higher, you're in. I got 98. 30 on ACT, 38% in my class).

It seems like the admissions system they use there is sort of screwing you...A 30 on the ACT is roughly equivalent to a 1300 on the SAT. Most institutions would give that precendence over your class rank, as long as you showed an interest in learning there. I'm willing to be a lot of lesser qualified individuals than yourself got in under that system.

 

[Kenneth T. Cornelius]

Hey, I went to community college for two years before going to Oregon State. co. college was cheaper and to be honest I thought a better education all around. The class sizes were smaller and you had more access to the instructor. When I got to Oregon State half the time an assistant would be doing the actual teaching.

For undergraduate courses a teaching assistant can be superior to a mighty professor. It was an assistant that, fifteen minutes into his first class, had straightened out the mess that high school instruction made of my knowledge of trigonometry and made it suddenly simple. :mrgreen:

 

[JustineCredible]

:dito:

I too am a Community College grad who transfered to a four year. Loved every minute of my CC days and am very grateful for all they did for me. I graduated High School literally not being able to read. I am dyslexic, but it wasn't until I got to CC where I was properly assesed and later diagnosed. If it hadn't been for CC I never would have gotten anywhere in my life. I would have simply accepted the label of "stupid" or "lazy" given to me by completely ignorant high school teachers. CC undid the damage created by public High School.
For that I will always be grateful.

Because of my CC I moved onto Northwestern University where I have two Bachelor's Degrees.

 

[JustineCredible]

You go to Northwestern. I don't think we can be friends anymore (I'm a towny). But damn, your cc did right by you.

LOL Hey, I have some friends who live in Evanston. I don't go there (Northwester) now, I graduated already, but I do visit my friends. I just couldn't turn down the deal I got using my parents' legacies. I totally understand townies, I grew up on DeKalb.

 

[JustineCredible]

Maybe you could convince the students to learn to cross the street correctly. At such a prestigous university, I'm baffled at their inability to figure that out!

My girlfriend's old roommate goes to northern!

Well I was a returning adult when I got my second degree. There's no telling these kids anything...come on, you have to remember being nineteen and twenty. We were invincible, we ruled the world and the world was ours.

My education was interupted by life in general. So, it took me a while to return after a stint in the military, marriage, kid and divorce. I was never a "catered to" college kid. That whole mentality is truly foreign to me.

Going to Northern is ok, it just depends on what you're going there for. I chose Northwestern for a couple of reasons. Some scholastic and some familial.

 

[JustineCredible]

You know how the sidewalks that hit sheridan and chicago are wide enough for a car, and go down like a drive way? Once, back in high school, I scared the love of god into some of those bastards! Imagine a car chasing you down the sidewalk, and then, once cornered, a tall, mohawked, tattooed kid jumps out brandishing nunchucks! I'll bet anything they checked both ways next time!

Hold on a second? Do I know you?

A friend of mine did that once too...and yes indeed he had a mohawk as well as nunchucks, not that he actually knew how to use them. But we were all in our early twenties/late teens at the time anyway. LOL

 

[RightinNYC]

One thing that I would like to mention that I think everyone's forgotten.

As to whether or not gay people can have babies, if they get the Stork's phone number, can't they place an order just like any straight couple?

I mean, seriously, wtf, mate?