Can an atheist ever be elected President?

[Engimo]

Noooooo you misunderstood me. I wasn't judging atheists. I didn't imply that any of the things I said were right or wrong; I was just stating that most atheists don't share moral beliefs that most Christians do. This isn't an attempt at descrimination; It's just a fact. Are you really going to tell me that most atheists are pro-life? I highly doubt that. Maybe some atheists do but I can at least safely say that the chief atheist organization in America, American Atheists, are not pro-life. But look, I'm not saying that I don't like atheists because they are pro-choice or that I judge them. I was just giving you a reason why an atheist probably couldn't get elected in this country.

Oh really? I think you're making stuff up. Can you show us some statistics about correlation between atheists and an affinity for being pro-choice? As well, searching for a stance by American Atheists on abortion doesn't turn anything up, so I'd like to see a source for that as well.

 

[Engimo]

Uh, ok dude I guess you just picked out a link, posted it, and didn't really care to read it. Those stats, even if they are true (and we all know that Mcneese State University is the absolute authority on this), they prove nothing. Who cares if only 15% of Christians participate in Bible Studies? Can't you just read it by yourself? And that page says that 59% of Christians read the Bible at least occasionally, which disproves your statement that most Christians have a very cursory knowledge of the Bible. I am not sure whether you're just really ignorant of this matter or whether you just choose to believe that most Christians haven't read the Bible because it makes you feel better about being an atheist. But either way, you really shouldn't assume that so many people in the world are so dumb as to blindly believe in a religion. If people were really that dumb, we'd still be in the paleolithic age.

Appeal to popularity. As well, I was posting that as an example of the sort of statistics I was talking about, if you read what I wrote in parenthesis.

For example, http://www.harpers.org/ExcerptTheChristianParadox.html .

"Only 40 percent of Americans can name more than four of the Ten Commandments, and a scant half can cite any of the four authors of the Gospels. Twelve percent believe Joan of Arc was Noah’s wife.", from the first line.

Can you really make the claim that someone who has more than a cursory knowledge of the Bible wouldn't know the Ten Commandments - a fundamental part of Judeo-Christian philosophy? I'm an atheist and I could name them all.

The statistics are out there, and from personal experience the majority of Christians that I know have not read the Bible in its entirety (or even in any depth).

 

[George_Washington]

Appeal to popularity. As well, I was posting that as an example of the sort of statistics I was talking about, if you read what I wrote in parenthesis.

For example, http://www.harpers.org/ExcerptTheChristianParadox.html .

"Only 40 percent of Americans can name more than four of the Ten Commandments, and a scant half can cite any of the four authors of the Gospels. Twelve percent believe Joan of Arc was Noah’s wife.", from the first line.

Can you really make the claim that someone who has more than a cursory knowledge of the Bible wouldn't know the Ten Commandments - a fundamental part of Judeo-Christian philosophy? I'm an atheist and I could name them all.

The statistics are out there, and from personal experience the majority of Christians that I know have not read the Bible in its entirety (or even in any depth).

Oh, you're saying I was using an appeal to authority fallacy and now you turn around and say, "I know from personal experience..." which is an even bigger fallacy? Interesting. I am not sure exactly how you thought I was trying to appeal to an authority figure as I never mentioned one but let's just move on.

That's actually an interesting article you posted. But I still don't think that just because a person might forget one of the commandments means they're ignorant about their religion. Consider somebody that read the Bible once but then went on to have three and four kids, had a busy work life, etc. Maybe that person just forget because he had too many other things to remember in his life. I'm sure there are many things about the Bible that I've forgotten over the years but does that mean I'm ignorant of my faith? I don't think it does.

 

[Engimo]

Oh, you're saying I was using an appeal to authority fallacy and now you turn around and say, "I know from personal experience..." which is an even bigger fallacy? Interesting. I am not sure exactly how you thought I was trying to appeal to an authority figure as I never mentioned one but let's just move on.

I know reading is hard, but I said "Appeal to Popularity." The fact that there are a lot of Christians or religious people doesn't mean anything about the actual logical validity of religiousness as a whole. And I said "from personal experience" as an addendum to posting statistics, I am not saying that my personal experience is anything but anecdotal, and I am not using it as the sole basis for what I am claiming.

That's actually an interesting article you posted. But I still don't think that just because a person might forget one of the commandments means they're ignorant about their religion. Consider somebody that read the Bible once but then went on to have three and four kids, had a busy work life, etc. Maybe that person just forget because he had too many other things to remember in his life. I'm sure there are many things about the Bible that I've forgotten over the years but does that mean I'm ignorant of my faith? I don't think it does.

No, nor do I, but I have read in the past statistics (that I am having difficulty finding) that the vast majority of Christians have not read the whole Bible, which I find to correlate perfectly with what I have experienced. I will continue to look for the statistics, but I am rather certain that I have read it before.

 

[George_Washington]

Oh really? I think you're making stuff up. Can you show us some statistics about correlation between atheists and an affinity for being pro-choice? As well, searching for a stance by American Atheists on abortion doesn't turn anything up, so I'd like to see a source for that as well.

There are hints in almost every article they write concerning the topic. The books they have in their online bookstore speak in favor of pro-choice and so do their press releases:

http://www.atheists.org/pressreleases/

 

[Engimo]

There are hints in almost every article they write concerning the topic. The books they have in their online bookstore speak in favor of pro-choice and so do their press releases:

http://www.atheists.org/pressreleases/

Even if that is true, it still sidesteps that main point: Show a correlation between atheists and an affinity for being pro-choice. Just because the largest atheist organization supports something does not mean that the majority of atheists do.

While you are possibly correct, the point I am making is that you should not be making unsubstantiated generalizations.

 

[kal-el]

Noooooo you misunderstood me.

Negative. I think I understood you very well.

I wasn't judging atheists.

O really? It sure sounds like it to me:

I have a hard time believing that most atheists are well versed in the Bible.

I suspect most people become atheists because they're pissed about something that went wrong in their lives or else they're just too lazy to seek answers.

most atheists don't share the moral values that most Americans hold dear concerning such issues like abortion, marriage, etc.

atheists tend not to think certain things are immoral like hard core pornography, divorce, and sex before marriage.

I didn't imply that any of the things I said were right or wrong; I was just stating that most atheists don't share moral beliefs that most Christians do.

You didn't have to. Sometimes silence speaks volumes.:lol:

This isn't an attempt at descrimination; It's just a fact.

You make it sound like pro-choice is a bad thing.

Are you really going to tell me that most atheists are pro-life? I highly doubt that. Maybe some atheists do but I can at least safely say that the chief atheist organization in America, American Atheists, are not pro-life.

Another generalization. You doubt that, well opinions don't matter. Prove that most atheists are not pro-life, you could be correct, but it dosen't matter whether you are right, you shouldn't make unfounded claims without providing founded evidence.

But look, I'm not saying that I don't like atheists because they are pro-choice or that I judge them. I was just giving you a reason why an atheist probably couldn't get elected in this country.

Well, you have yet to prove any of those "reasons". I have a hard time believing that most atheists are well-versed in the bible.- Why not? There are certainy cases of bible-thumper's crossing over to atheism. Most atheists don't share moral beliefs that Christians do.- Naked assertion. Way to jump to conclusions. Prove it. And just because an organization of atheists supports certain beliefs, dosen't mean they all do. All atheists aren't all the same. I highly doubt most atheists are pro-life.- Another unsubstantiated claim. It seems you are well adept at making claims without supporting evidence; hence your "blind belief" in the bible I guess.:2razz:

 

[HU-210]

Myself an atheist, I would not say that I am not well-versed in the bible. Though my exact knowledge is of course a matter of semantics, I am well capable of having a theological discussion far beyond the extend of many christian believers I have met. Than again, that might say more of the quality of christian believers than it might be me. But, somehow I doubt you will use that interpretation.

Regarding morals, I don't endorse christian morals, no. However, I couldn't care less whether you believe in pre-marital sex or not. If you wish to be as Augustine, be my guest. If you wish to be as Borgia, be my guest. The difference between christians and atheists at large, as I see it, is that the first believe that the belief in a moral system somehow encompasses the belief in the superiority thereof, but worse, that others should follow as well. Personally, I doubt a lot of people could live the way I do. You either like me, or you don't. You respect me, or I'll play around with you, and go. I have some other rules, but that's basically what it boils down too.

I was just giving you a reason why an atheist probably couldn't get elected in this country.

If you mean to say that most Americans base themself on unfounded claims, than I'm not sure whether I can disagree with ya.

Mr U

 

[George_Washington]

You didn't have to. Sometimes silence speaks volumes.:lol:

You can believe what you want to but you should realize that people often times state things that are true without a, "hidden agenda". In fact, that's how many people get misquoted because the accusatory party let their emotions run wild. I could do the same with your posts but I don't out of respect for you and other posters on this forum.

Well, you have yet to prove any of those "reasons". I have a hard time believing that most atheists are well-versed in the bible.- Why not? There are certainy cases of bible-thumper's crossing over to atheism. Most atheists don't share moral beliefs that Christians do.- Naked assertion. Way to jump to conclusions. Prove it. And just because an organization of atheists supports certain beliefs, dosen't mean they all do. All atheists aren't all the same. I highly doubt most atheists are pro-life.- Another unsubstantiated claim. It seems you are well adept at making claims without supporting evidence; hence your "blind belief" in the bible I guess.:2razz:

So you're allowed to start a thread and make blind accusations about Christians but I'm not allowed to come in and offer my own opinions on that which was reckless opinion to begin with? Pretty hypocritical, dude. I have offered evidence that the largest atheist group in America is rather liberal. If you're really so keen on me proving my statements, than why don't you offer evidence supporting your claim that most, "Bible-thumpers" are ignorant of what's in the Bible. You throw so many prejudicial terms about Christians around in your posts that I don't think you even realize it anymore. Perhaps my, "blind belief" is only reaffirmed by people like you.

 

[Engimo]

So you're allowed to start a thread and make blind accusations about Christians but I'm not allowed to come in and offer my own opinions on that which was reckless opinion to begin with? Pretty hypocritical, dude. I have offered evidence that the largest atheist group in America is rather liberal. If you're really so keen on me proving my statements, than why don't you offer evidence supporting your claim that most, "Bible-thumpers" are ignorant of what's in the Bible. You throw so many prejudicial terms about Christians around in your posts that I don't think you even realize it anymore. Perhaps my, "blind belief" is only reaffirmed by people like you.

Never mind the statistics that I have posted and are rather common knowledge that most Christians have never read the entire Bible and do not even have a functional awareness of its contents.

 

[George_Washington]

Never mind the statistics that I have posted and are rather common knowledge that most Christians have never read the entire Bible and do not even have a functional awareness of its contents.

I have already dissected your statistics. Don't try to act like I just ignored them. I have yet to see either one of you two provide solid evidence to support kal-el's original assertion. Geesh, I guess I really just didn't know how prejudice some of you atheists really are towards us.

 

[Apostle13]

You throw so many prejudicial terms about Christians around in your posts that I don't think you even realize it anymore. Perhaps my, "blind belief" is only reaffirmed by people like you.

I see this as well... We are slow to anger as Christians and maybe you Kal-el are just taking advantage of the fact..?

 

[Engimo]

I see this as well... We are slow to anger as Christians and maybe you Kal-el are just taking advantage of the fact..?

Really? I'd like to see an instance where I said something unsubstantiated about Christians that I did not clearly say was unsubstantiated.

Listen, the bottom line is that atheists are not atheists out of laziness, and that you cannot generalize about the political feelings of atheists without any statistics besides "oh this one atheistic organization sort of feels this way".

 

[kal-el]

You can believe what you want to but you should realize that people often times state things that are true without a, "hidden agenda".

Is that so? They could, but most aren't in the habit of making sweeping generalizations about a belief system without supporting evidence. And if you say, what about you, every claim I have made against the Christian faith I have supported with evidence either with scripture verses, or links to a web page.

In fact, that's how many people get misquoted because the accusatory party let their emotions run wild. I could do the same with your posts but I don't out of respect for you and other posters on this forum.

O, how decent of you my liege! Nobody's stopping you, go right ahead.

So you're allowed to start a thread and make blind accusations about Christians but I'm not allowed to come in and offer my own opinions on that which was reckless opinion to begin with? Pretty hypocritical, dude.

Blind accusations about Christians? By all means, quote where I said any without supporting evidence.

I have offered evidence that the largest atheist group in America is rather liberal.

Ok, that's a start, now proove how most atheists aren't versed in scripture, or how we're mostly pro-choice.

If you're really so keen on me proving my statements, than why don't you offer evidence supporting your claim that most, "Bible-thumpers" are ignorant of what's in the Bible.

Read threads, posts. It is apparently evident that Bible-thumpers do not see the contradictions in certain passages. Better yet, for more proof, read the tread entiteled, "Bible Fallacies"- I list numerous contradictions. And when I said "There are certainly cases of Bible-thumper's crossing over to atheism"- well, here is some proof:
http://incolor.inetnebr.com/jepler/atheism/becoming/becoming.html
http://www.stnews.org/news-2448.htm

You throw so many prejudicial terms about Christians around in your posts that I don't think you even realize it anymore. Perhaps my, "blind belief" is only reaffirmed by people like you.

Translation: You throw out so many contradictions and distortions in the Bible, in your posts, that I can't help but re-think my beliefs. Perhhaps my "blind faith" is abundant because I have shut the eye of reason.

 

[Apostle13]

Really? I'd like to see an instance where I said something unsubstantiated about Christians that I did not clearly say was unsubstantiated.

Listen, the bottom line is that atheists are not atheists out of laziness, and that you cannot generalize about the political feelings of atheists without any statistics besides "oh this one atheistic organization sort of feels this way".

I'm sorry is your name kal-el also..?
Not to worry though I'm preparing your case...lol

 

[Engimo]

I'm sorry is your name kal-el also..?
Not to worry though I'm preparing your case...lol

You said "I see this as well... We are slow to anger as Christians and maybe you Kal-el are just taking advantage of the fact..?" I assumed the "you" was referring to me.

 

[kal-el]

I see this as well... We are slow to anger as Christians and maybe you Kal-el are just taking advantage of the fact..?

What are you so incoherntly babbling here? Maybe I'm taking advantage of the fact that you are so gullible, taking stories of fiction for fact. You see what as well? Name 1 thing i said about christians that I haven't supported with evidence, or else stop being dishonest. This is getting ridiculous, I called you on being dishonest in another thread, and yet you continue this dishonesty streak.

 

[HU-210]

Name 1 thing i said about christians that I haven't supported with evidence, or else stop being dishonest.

For one, you called me one, and I think that is quite the indictment. Against christian believers I mean

I have offered evidence that the largest atheist group in America is rather liberal.

The largest Christian group is catholic. Need I go on?

Mr U

 

[George_Washington]

Blind accusations about Christians? By all means, quote where I said any without supporting evidence.

Since I don't feel like going through the mountains of posts you've made in which you did so, I'll post the most relevant example:

I've been pondering this question for quite some time. I think every single President we ever had was Christian. I think any other religion, other than Christianity, would have a hell of a hard time scailing the political ladder. Think about it, I highly doubt an atheist could get elected, even though he might be an upstanding citizen, and obey all the laws, but as soon as his beliefs or lack thereof come out- watch out. Atheism is frowned upon because the public fears what is doesn't know. An atheist might be able to get by saying he won't listen to voices telling him to invade soverign nations, and won't stand in the way of modern medicine. And because most atheists are well-versed on the bible, it definetly won't hurt to toss out some bible quotes. They have a fighting chance, that is, until there beliefs/non beliefs come up.

Well, let's see. In that short yet controversial statement, you've basically said that Christians fear atheism, want to, "invade soverign nations," are against modern medicine, and that most Christians are ignorant of the Bible.

BTW-Jefferson wasn't a Christian; he was a deist.

Look, I admit that when I said most atheists come to the conclusion because it's easier not to have to practice a religion, or that they are mad about how their lives turned out, that was just my opinion and I'm sorry if I offended anyone. It really is just my opinion but I don't think that means I'm prejudiced towards atheists. I was just trying to refute your assertion that most people become atheists after reading the Bible, which was really what you were indirectly saying. And when I said they don't share the beliefs of Christians, I wasn't saying that this was neccessarily a bad thing. I was just trying to offer a reason why not too many of them get elected to public office. But I admit that some really conservative neighborhoods might also descriminate against them. And I do admit that would be wrong.

 

[George_Washington]

The largest Christian group is catholic. Need I go on?

Not in this country.

 

[HU-210]

Not in this country.

What do you call it in English, when you are ashamed for something someone else did? You know, when a person on the stage does something silly, and you feel ashamed for him?

Let me try again.. Because most christian believers are catholic on a global scale, does that mean that the ideas of those catholics mean something about the whole group?

Mr U

 

[ngdawg]

http://www.adherents.com/rel_USA.html#religions


According to these charts, Protestant is the largest christian group in the country. However, Protestant covers, Methodist, Episcopalian, United Church of Christ, Lutheran and Presbyterian, so, if you go by individual churches, you can conclude that Catholic IS the largest in terms of christian church identification.

 

[kal-el]

Well, let's see. In that short yet controversial statement, you've basically said that Christians fear atheism,

Misrepresentation. I said, "The public fears what it dosen't know
http://www.geocities.com/yahugrup/spcial10.htm

want to, "invade soverign nations,"

Do you keep up on current events? May I suggest trying something new, switching the Tv on, or reading the paper.

are against modern medicine,

Another blatant distortion. Plese stop putting words in my mouth. I said an atheist won't be against modern medicine. That might be implying what you said, but is'nt it a fact that most religious folk are against abortion, stem cell research, formerly IVF, and other scientific practices.

and that most Christians are ignorant of the Bible.

If you bother to read any of the posts, most bible-thumper's deny the clear-cut contradictions presented in their religious text. I'd say that's either sheer stupidity, orelse they're being less than honest with themselves to stay consistent with their "faith."

 

[Apostle13]

You said "I see this as well... We are slow to anger as Christians and maybe you Kal-el are just taking advantage of the fact..?" I assumed the "you" was referring to me.

No... I am not one to generalize.

What are you so incoherntly babbling here? Maybe I'm taking advantage of the fact that you are so gullible, taking stories of fiction for fact. You see what as well? Name 1 thing i said about christians that I haven't supported with evidence, or else stop being dishonest. This is getting ridiculous, I called you on being dishonest in another thread, and yet you continue this dishonesty streak.

Your calling me a liar does'nt make me such. Because I chose not to answer your previous liar accusation does not make you right. Your rants here on these forums speak volumes towards your real life character.
Whereby, even the most analytical atheists here are likely, I suspect, becoming somewhat embarrassed.
...But like I said, I don't generalize.

 

[kal-el]

Your calling me a liar does'nt make me such.

No, not just me calling you that, but the fact that you constantly spout off decietful, absurd, untrue, and totally unfounded claims.

Because I chose not to answer your previous liar accusation does not make you right.

Uhh, it's pretty evident you are a liar. Simply because you didn't answer, or defend your lies speaks volumes about your integrity.

Your rants here on these forums speak volumes towards your real life character.

What? You don't like the manner in which I post? If that's the case, plead to a moderater to get me banned, or else please cease from making stupid statements.

Whereby, even the most analytical atheists here are likely, I suspect, becoming somewhat embarrassed.
...But like I said, I don't generalize.

That's not a generalization, that's a characterization. If you could see me, look real closely at my eyes, you'll see the tear in my eye showing how much I care.