Can a human organization be free of corruption?

[Fearandloathing]

I'd say that depends on two things: 1) How transparent is the organization, and 2) Do the people you're beholden to demand a high level of ethical behavior?

If the answers are "Very much" and "Yes," then you could feasibly have an institution that's free of corruption.

Bu then wee have the definition of 'corruption' to deal with. It comes in many forms. If I take a bag of coffee from the company stash home one night....

Or the boss uses his expense account to buy diner for his mistress.

In a church I was with. The receptionist had been on the job too many years and had burned out years before. She was incompetent because of it and blocked anything new as she feared it would be additional work and she hated her job, although claimed the opposite.

As a result nothing got done. What was supposed to happening was poorly co-ordinated it became too frustrating and people would abandon the project.

We could not discuss firing her. She had been there too long and needed the income. To me it was charity, with the additional cost of her interfering with everything as she was also a control freak.

That cost the church and its members far more than her salary and went on for over 25 years!

Truth? That's every church in North America, every volunteer company, every small club and even some big ones. And if you think that is not a factor in the halls of power...think again.

 

[Chomsky]

Not even an organization run by God Almighty, and you're asking about humans? 😆😆😆

LMAO!

 

[Chomsky]

Bu then wee have the definition of 'corruption' to deal with. It comes in many forms. If I take a bag of coffee from the company stash home one night....

Or the boss uses his expense account to buy diner for his mistress.

In a church I was with. The receptionist had been on the job too many years and had burned out years before. She was incompetent because of it and blocked anything new as she feared it would be additional work and she hated her job, although claimed the opposite.

As a result nothing got done. What was supposed to happening was poorly co-ordinated it became too frustrating and people would abandon the project.

We could not discuss firing her. She had been there too long and needed the income. To me it was charity, with the additional cost of her interfering with everything as she was also a control freak.

That cost the church and its members far more than her salary and went on for over 25 years!

Truth? That's every church in North America, every volunteer company, every small club and even some big ones. And if you think that is not a factor in the halls of power...think again.

Q.F.T.!

I've never seen more incompetence, political ass-kissing, and pettiness, than at religious & small non-profit service orgs!

The small ones can be absolutely terrible to deal with, literally terrible. Petty! Petty! Petty! Yes, "petty" seems to the overarching dominate quality, with "incompetence" not far behind! Be prepared to walk on eggshells when around the unbelievably easily bruised egos often found at these places!

The big ones can be a little better. But the small ones? Forget about it!

 

[LouC]

not as long as they are human

Just like it is absolutely impossible for any human journalist to be bias free in their reporting.

 

[The Mark]

Just like it is absolutely impossible for any human journalist to be bias free in their reporting.

Then the best we can do is compensate for the expected bias, and limit the expected corruption by regulation and prosecution of it.

 

[Cardinal]

Bu then wee have the definition of 'corruption' to deal with. It comes in many forms. If I take a bag of coffee from the company stash home one night....

Or the boss uses his expense account to buy diner for his mistress.

In a church I was with. The receptionist had been on the job too many years and had burned out years before. She was incompetent because of it and blocked anything new as she feared it would be additional work and she hated her job, although claimed the opposite.

As a result nothing got done. What was supposed to happening was poorly co-ordinated it became too frustrating and people would abandon the project.

We could not discuss firing her. She had been there too long and needed the income. To me it was charity, with the additional cost of her interfering with everything as she was also a control freak.

That cost the church and its members far more than her salary and went on for over 25 years!

Truth? That's every church in North America, every volunteer company, every small club and even some big ones. And if you think that is not a factor in the halls of power...think again.

Before I comment, what was your role in this story?

 

[mrdeltoid]

Then the best we can do is compensate for the expected bias, and limit the expected corruption by regulation and prosecution of it.

According to Petroleum and coal products manufacturing are the most heavily regulated organization in the US. Pharmaceutical and medical manufacturing are in the top 10. Corrupt people don't follow regulations.

 

[Fearandloathing]

Before I comment, what was your role in this story?

I was a member of the church and on council, head of the finance committee.

 

[Cardinal]

I was a member of the church and on council, head of the finance committee.

Well then, based on the information you've provided, this would all seem to support my post. There was too little transparency in that organization for the public to make any kind of informed decision of their own. And if the public did know about the receptionist, then that would also support my argument since they didn't demand a higher level of ethical behavior.

 

[Fearandloathing]

Q.F.T.!

I've never seen more incompetence, political ass-kissing, and pettiness, than at religious & small non-profit service orgs!

The small ones can be absolutely terrible to deal with, literally terrible. Petty! Petty! Petty! Yes, "petty" seems to the overarching dominate quality, with "incompetence" not far behind! Be prepared to walk on eggshells when around the unbelievably easily bruised egos often found at these places!

The big ones can be a little better. But the small ones? Forget about it!

Alcoholics anonymous is the most childish organization in the universe. I was back room service for 15 years and petty? **** we could get into a five hour fight over one word!

But it was all forgotten the next meeting. As childish and messed up it wall was, it worked! No one ever punched anyone and no one ever drank!

In any associative meeting, that's success!

AA has no rules, we have 'traditions'. And when we fight, we fight to win at all cost!

But we have traditions and one of them is when the debate gets too hot as per the chairman's call, the matter is put on hold for one week or a month.

In 15 years of service I never once saw an issue carry over.

In ten years service to the church, I seldom, if ever, saw issues resolved.

 

[The Mark]

According to Petroleum and coal products manufacturing are the most heavily regulated organization in the US. Pharmaceutical and medical manufacturing are in the top 10. Corrupt people don't follow regulations.

That is why we have to enforce them, and do so in such a way that it's less profitable to break them than follow them.

 

[The Mark]

Alcoholics anonymous is the most childish organization in the universe. I was back room service for 15 years and petty? **** we could get into a five hour fight over one word!

But it was all forgotten the next meeting. As childish and messed up it wall was, it worked! No one ever punched anyone and no one ever drank!

In any associative meeting, that's success!

AA has no rules, we have 'traditions'. And when we fight, we fight to win at all cost!

But we have traditions and one of them is when the debate gets too hot as per the chairman's call, the matter is put on hold for one week or a month.

In 15 years of service I never once saw an issue carry over.

In ten years service to the church, I seldom, if ever, saw issues resolved.

Giving people time to cool off from an argument/debate and reconsider their arguments seems like a good thing if it gets too heated.
Having those debates at all is also a good thing, and I suspect that churches tend to be more hierarchical when deciding
Not all, but definitely some.

 

[mrdeltoid]

Alcoholics anonymous is the most childish organization in the universe. I was back room service for 15 years and petty? **** we could get into a five hour fight over one word!

But it was all forgotten the next meeting. As childish and messed up it wall was, it worked! No one ever punched anyone and no one ever drank!

In any associative meeting, that's success!

AA has no rules, we have 'traditions'. And when we fight, we fight to win at all cost!

But we have traditions and one of them is when the debate gets too hot as per the chairman's call, the matter is put on hold for one week or a month.

In 15 years of service I never once saw an issue carry over.

In ten years service to the church, I seldom, if ever, saw issues resolved.

Childish? I disagree. Maybe Canada is different, but the tradition you posted isn't one of the 12 traditions here in the US. The meetings I attend there is no cross talk allowed, so there are no arguments. And as successful as AA is, people do relapse. I'm a founding member of our home group, and I wish " nobody ever drank". I haven't drank in 30 years, but wasn't a first nighter. The 12 steps and 12 traditions of AA are our foundation, none of which are "childish". JMHO

 

[LouC]

Then the best we can do is compensate for the expected bias, and limit the expected corruption by regulation and prosecution of it.

As it has always been. Yes.

 

[Fearandloathing]

Childish? I disagree. Maybe Canada is different, but the tradition you posted isn't one of the 12 traditions here in the US. The meetings I attend there is no cross talk allowed, so there are no arguments. And as successful as AA is, people do relapse. I'm a founding member of our home group, and I wish " nobody ever drank". I haven't drank in 30 years, but wasn't a first nighter. The 12 steps and 12 traditions of AA are our foundation, none of which are "childish". JMHO

Seig Heil

 

[Fearandloathing]

Giving people time to cool off from an argument/debate and reconsider their arguments seems like a good thing if it gets too heated.
Having those debates at all is also a good thing, and I suspect that churches tend to be more hierarchical when deciding
Not all, but definitely some.

In my experience I've found churches rather avoid ugliness. Dysfunction if preferred to confrontation.

In the church I was in the youth pastor had little feeling for teens, especially boys. She allowed the ministry to fade to nothing as teens looked to a nearby church had that very strong teen programs. As a result those families changed churches. Donations evaporated in about the same amount as her salary. In other words she had worked herself out of her job.

But we couldn't fire her. They were going to have a series of conversations with her when I got sick and later left.

 

[mrdeltoid]

Seig Heil

auf Wiedersehen