Can a Christian lose their salvation?

[Daisy]

2 Kings 13:21. The bones of Elisha revived a dead man.

Acts 19:11-12. Paul's handkerchief healed people.

Elisha was dead, so that in itself is proof that it was God’s power, not Elisha’s, that performed the miracles Elisha had accomplished, and it was a powerful attestation or a seal of God as to the genuineness of his faithful prophet....

Acts 19:11 states where Paul's power came from, there was no magical power in the cloth, it ws merely a cloth..."And God kept performing extraordinary powerful works through the hands of Paul,"

 

[Checkerboard Strangler]

That's me in the corner
That's me in the spotlight
Losing my religion salvation
Trying to keep up with you
And I don't know if I can do it
Oh no, I've said too much
I haven't said enough

 

[phattonez]

Elisha was dead, so that in itself is proof that it was God’s power, not Elisha’s, that performed the miracles Elisha had accomplished, and it was a powerful attestation or a seal of God as to the genuineness of his faithful prophet....

Acts 19:11 states where Paul's power came from, there was no magical power in the cloth, it ws merely a cloth..."And God kept performing extraordinary powerful works through the hands of Paul,"

THAT'S EXACTLY WHAT THE CHURCH TEACHES!

 

[Daisy]

THAT'S EXACTLY WHAT THE CHURCH TEACHES!

And rosary beads?

 

[phattonez]

And rosary beads?

What objection do you have to people having a counting mechanism?

 

[Daisy]

What objection do you have to people having a counting mechanism?

What scriptural basis is there? And why is there a need to count?

 

[phattonez]

What scriptural basis is there? And why is there a need to count?

Scriptural basis for what? What's the objection? Is it that we pray a certain number of times? Are you doing the standard repetition of prayers argument?

 

[Daisy]

Scriptural basis for what? What's the objection? Is it that we pray a certain number of times? Are you doing the standard repetition of prayers argument?

Well, prayer is not some magic formula, where the exact repeating brings any benefit...prayer should be heartfelt for it to be heard by God...there is certainly no reference in the Scriptures to people’s needing a rosary or similar means of counting memorized prayers...in fact, Jesus told us not to do such a thing...if the same memorized prayer is not to be said over and over again, obviously beads would not be needed to count how many times it is said...

"When praying, do not say the same things over and over again as the people of the nations do, for they imagine they will get a hearing for their use of many words. So do not be like them, for your Father knows what you need+ even before you ask him. " Matthew 6:7,8

 

[Integrityrespec]

Sure. If a Christian stops trying to emulate Jesus, he's no longer a Christian, and that would prevent him from entering Heaven.

Jesus would still love him, though.

A person who accepts Jesus as savior and repents strives to live a changed life and emulate the teachings of Jesus. NO, he cannot be unsaved. It doesn't mean he will not be tempted nor that he will never sin again. Only one person has not sin, the rest of us Christians are repentant sinners.

 

[phattonez]

Well, prayer is not some magic formula, where the exact repeating brings any benefit...prayer should be heartfelt for it to be heard by God...there is certainly no reference in the Scriptures to people’s needing a rosary or similar means of counting memorized prayers...in fact, Jesus told us not to do such a thing...if the same memorized prayer is not to be said over and over again, obviously beads would not be needed to count how many times it is said...

"When praying, do not say the same things over and over again as the people of the nations do, for they imagine they will get a hearing for their use of many words. So do not be like them, for your Father knows what you need+ even before you ask him. " Matthew 6:7,8

Okay, so it is the repetition argument. Simple. See Revelation 4:8

"And the four living creatures, each of them with six wings, are full of eyes all round and within, and day and night they never cease to sing,

“Holy, holy, holy,[d] is the Lord God Almighty,
who was and is and is to come!”"

In heaven they say those same words, over and over again for eternity.

So what is this vain repetition that Jesus is talking about? It's not repetition in general, it's vain repetition. Repetition for the sake of God hearing. Jesus was referring to here to an actual pagan practice where they repeated their prayers many times so that the gods could hear. That's not the point in the rosary. We know that God hears any prayer. The rosary represents the 150 psalms, and was used by those who couldn't recite the psalms because they were illiterate.

Further, what's wrong with saying memorized prayers? Jesus gave us the Lord's prayer. There's certainly nothing wrong with saying that.

 

[phattonez]

A person who accepts Jesus as savior and repents strives to live a changed life and emulate the teachings of Jesus. NO, he cannot be unsaved. It doesn't mean he will not be tempted nor that he will never sin again. Only one person has not sin, the rest of us Christians are repentant sinners.

Citation needed.

 

[Daisy]

Okay, so it is the repetition argument. Simple. See Revelation 4:8

"And the four living creatures, each of them with six wings, are full of eyes all round and within, and day and night they never cease to sing,

“Holy, holy, holy,[d] is the Lord God Almighty,
who was and is and is to come!”"

In heaven they say those same words, over and over again for eternity.

So what is this vain repetition that Jesus is talking about? It's not repetition in general, it's vain repetition. Repetition for the sake of God hearing. Jesus was referring to here to an actual pagan practice where they repeated their prayers many times so that the gods could hear. That's not the point in the rosary. We know that God hears any prayer. The rosary represents the 150 psalms, and was used by those who couldn't recite the psalms because they were illiterate.

Further, what's wrong with saying memorized prayers? Jesus gave us the Lord's prayer. There's certainly nothing wrong with saying that.

We are not angels, we are humans and Jesus instructed us how to pray...I want my prayers to be heard by God, so I'll continue praying in the way Jesus instructed us...

 

[phattonez]

We are not angels, we are humans and Jesus instructed us how to pray...I want my prayers to be heard by God, so I'll continue praying in the way Jesus instructed us...

So you don't repeat the Lord's prayer?

I mean really, what's the argument here? You think God is offended if we pray the Our Father twice in a row?

 

[phattonez]

We are not angels, we are humans and Jesus instructed us how to pray...I want my prayers to be heard by God, so I'll continue praying in the way Jesus instructed us...

Vain repetition isn't even a good translation. This is a better one:

"And in praying do not heap up empty phrases as the Gentiles do; for they think that they will be heard for their many words."

See the Greek translation from Bible Hub.

 

[phattonez]

We are not angels, we are humans and Jesus instructed us how to pray...I want my prayers to be heard by God, so I'll continue praying in the way Jesus instructed us...

You'll find that Jesus Himself also employed repetition.

"So, leaving them again, he went away and prayed for the third time, saying the same words."

Matthew 26:44

So if your point is against rote repetition without paying attention, we all agree! If it's repetition in general, I vociferously disagree.

 

[Daisy]

So you don't repeat the Lord's prayer?

I mean really, what's the argument here? You think God is offended if we pray the Our Father twice in a row?

Not since I was a kid...it was a model, giving us an example of the things we should pray for, Jesus never meant for us to pray word for word, as he pointed out in Matthew 6, 7...his words right before the Lord's prayer, starting in verse 9...

 

[phattonez]

Not since I was a kid...it was a model, giving us an example of the things we should pray for, Jesus never meant for us to pray word for word, as he pointed out in Matthew 6, 7...his words right before the Lord's prayer, starting in verse 9...

He never meant for us to pray it word for word? Can you substantiate that? Because in Luke, Jesus says to say what He says:

"And He said to them, "When you pray say: 'Father, hallowed be Your name. Your kingdom come..."

 

[Daisy]

Vain repetition isn't even a good translation. This is a better one:

"And in praying do not heap up empty phrases as the Gentiles do; for they think that they will be heard for their many words."

Well, since you brought it up...take a look at these translations...pretty clear about repetitive babble...

New International Version
And when you pray, do not keep on babbling like pagans, for they think they will be heard because of their many words.

New Living Translation
“When you pray, don’t babble on and on as the Gentiles do. They think their prayers are answered merely by repeating their words again and again.

English Standard Version
“And when you pray, do not heap up empty phrases as the Gentiles do, for they think that they will be heard for their many words.

Berean Study Bible
And when you pray, do not babble on like pagans, for they think that by their many words they will be heard.

Berean Literal Bible
And praying, do not use vain repetitions like the pagans, for they think that in their many words they will be heard.

New American Standard Bible
"And when you are praying, do not use meaningless repetition as the Gentiles do, for they suppose that they will be heard for their many words.

New King James Version
And when you pray, do not use vain repetitions as the heathen do. For they think that they will be heard for their many words.

King James Bible
But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking.

Christian Standard Bible
When you pray, don't babble like the Gentiles, since they imagine they'll be heard for their many words.

Contemporary English Version
When you pray, don't talk on and on as people do who don't know God. They think God likes to hear long prayers.

Good News Translation
"When you pray, do not use a lot of meaningless words, as the pagans do, who think that their gods will hear them because their prayers are long.



https://biblehub.com/matthew/6-7.htm

 

[Daisy]

You'll find that Jesus Himself also employed repetition.

"So, leaving them again, he went away and prayed for the third time, saying the same words."

Matthew 26:44

So if your point is against rote repetition without paying attention, we all agree! If it's repetition in general, I vociferously disagree.

Praying more than once is not repeating of the same words over and over...

 

[Daisy]

He never meant for us to pray it word for word? Can you substantiate that? Because in Luke, Jesus says to say what He says:

"And He said to them, "When you pray say: 'Father, hallowed be Your name. Your kingdom come..."

Already did...it was a model of the appropriate things to pray for...

 

[phattonez]

Well, since you brought it up...take a look at these translations...pretty clear about repetitive babble...

New International Version
And when you pray, do not keep on babbling like pagans, for they think they will be heard because of their many words.

New Living Translation
“When you pray, don’t babble on and on as the Gentiles do. They think their prayers are answered merely by repeating their words again and again.

English Standard Version
“And when you pray, do not heap up empty phrases as the Gentiles do, for they think that they will be heard for their many words.

Berean Study Bible
And when you pray, do not babble on like pagans, for they think that by their many words they will be heard.

Berean Literal Bible
And praying, do not use vain repetitions like the pagans, for they think that in their many words they will be heard.

New American Standard Bible
"And when you are praying, do not use meaningless repetition as the Gentiles do, for they suppose that they will be heard for their many words.

New King James Version
And when you pray, do not use vain repetitions as the heathen do. For they think that they will be heard for their many words.

King James Bible
But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking.

Christian Standard Bible
When you pray, don't babble like the Gentiles, since they imagine they'll be heard for their many words.

Contemporary English Version
When you pray, don't talk on and on as people do who don't know God. They think God likes to hear long prayers.

Good News Translation
"When you pray, do not use a lot of meaningless words, as the pagans do, who think that their gods will hear them because their prayers are long.



https://biblehub.com/matthew/6-7.htm

I gave you the Greek. It's more accurately babbling, be long winded, than repetition.

 

[phattonez]

Praying more than once is not repeating of the same words over and over...

It literally says using the same words.

 

[phattonez]

Already did...it was a model of the appropriate things to pray for...

So Jesus says to say this, and you say no, and I'm supposed to believe you over Jesus?

 

[Daisy]

I gave you the Greek. It's more accurately babbling, be long winded, than repetition.

Most translations, including mine say "saying the same thing"...considering what Jesus said in Matthew 6:7,8, I'll take his word for it...no pun intended...lol

New International Version
So he left them and went away once more and prayed the third time, saying the same thing.

New Living Translation
So he went to pray a third time, saying the same things again.

Berean Study Bible
So He left them and went away once more and prayed a third time, saying the same thing.

Berean Literal Bible
And having left them again, having gone away, He prayed for the third time, having said the same thing again.

New American Standard Bible
And He left them again, and went away and prayed a third time, saying the same thing once more.

Christian Standard Bible
After leaving them, he went away again and prayed a third time, saying the same thing once more.

https://biblehub.com/matthew/26-44.htm

 

[Daisy]

So Jesus says to say this, and you say no, and I'm supposed to believe you over Jesus?

What did Jesus say?

"When praying, do not say the same things over and over again as the people of the nations do, for they imagine they will get a hearing for their use of many words."