California's Wealth Tax Proposal Would Likely Backfire

[Luther]

You cannot be sure about a hypothetical. You can only argue using logic, and logic dictates that low-level workers who work two shifts to make ends meet cannot physically have the energy to do much more than barely surviving. Instead of making assumptions, you need to support a system which gives these people a chance to act as citizens instead of just working without stop, and then you will see how they will respond.

And also, if you want to see citizens in the US act like their counterparts in Germany, strengthen the unions. In Germany by law big corporations are obliged to have about half the seat in the board of directors controlled by workers! Here, such thing is "communism"

Codetermination in Germany - Wikipedia

Codetermination in Germany is a concept that involves the right of workers to participate in management of the companies they work for.[1] Known as Mitbestimmung, the modern law on codetermination is found principally in the Mitbestimmungsgesetz of 1976. The law allows workers to elect representatives (usually trade union representatives) for almost half of the supervisory board of directors

You still have not shown how my type of thinking will create a self-inflicting wound. You should better focus on the thinking of shortsighted conservatives in the US who are eager to undermine the worker rights and bid for which state will give Amazon the lowest tax possible.

ps. I do not know how old you are, but those at my age (50) can recall how socialists and leftists were staging protests against globalization and against the outsourcing of factories to poor countries wayyyyyy before Trump when both Democrats and Republicans were in full agreement about the benefits of "free markets" meaning corporations being free to relocate wherever they wanted!

1999 Seattle WTO protests - Wikipedia

So do not try to lecture me about China and my thinking

You cannot be sure about a hypothetical.

There is nothing "Hypothetical" about our MAJORITY apathetic citizenry. Also, voting doesn't make you Non apathetic. The lack of feeling I'm referring to, is the spirit in what was our AMERICAN Revolution

You can only argue using logic,

Yep, That's precisely what I do

strengthen the unions.

(LOL)

Like Cailf, NJ and NY for example? States that are in ruin?

You still have not shown how my type of thinking will create a self-inflicting wound

Sure I have...

Here's more California exodus: Frustrated residents unhappy with stay-at-home order say '''pandemic was last straw''' - ABC7 San Francisco

You should better focus on the thinking of shortsighted conservatives in the US who are eager to undermine the worker rights and bid for which state will give Amazon the lowest tax possible.

If I wasn't so close to retirement I would go and work for Amazon. It pays better(wink)

 

[Luther]

You will find the increase is due to birth rate and immigration from outside the country.

The money makers are who is departing.

California exodus: Frustrated residents unhappy with stay-at-home order say '''pandemic was last straw''' - ABC7 San Francisco

California Exodus: More people moving out of state than in for 1st time since 2010

California Witnessed a Mass Exodus in 2019

You will find the increase is due to birth rate and immigration from outside the country.

We have a winner!!!!

 

[pamak]

There is nothing "Hypothetical" about our MAJORITY apathetic citizenry. Also, voting doesn't make you Non apathetic. The lack of feeling I'm referring to, is the spirit in what was our AMERICAN Revolution




Yep, That's precisely what I do





(LOL)

Like Cailf, NJ and NY for example? States that are in ruin?





Sure I have...

Here's more California exodus: Frustrated residents unhappy with stay-at-home order say '''pandemic was last straw''' - ABC7 San Francisco




If I wasn't so close to retirement I would go and work for Amazon. It pays better(wink)

The hypothetical has everything to do about the conditions of a persons lives. People's behavior is not fixed. When one works 14 hours of day and does not have the luxury to pay for things that save time, like having people do his errands or help his kid with the homework or whatever, obviously he will not sped time reading about politics. So, the logical thing to do is to FIRST provide people opportunities and THEN criticize them instead of assuming of how the people will react

I just gave you the example of Germany regarding unions in the PRIVATE BUSINESS . And no, California big business in the private business are not pro union in California.

Your link about the frustrating Californias who move to TX does not change what I say. I did not say that there are not some frustrating Californias move to TX. I said (actually my link said) that California exports its poor to TX and in general it exports residents from the lower economic level while it imports new residents of higher economic level. So, the revenues for the state are not affected by such movement. But obviously, such change makes it more difficult for Californias at the lower 50% of the economy.


You make my point that people like you who thought that big companies in the 1990's will help the workers in the long-run had to flip flop and not be against globalization.

 

[pamak]

You will find the increase is due to birth rate and immigration from outside the country.

The money makers are who is departing.

California exodus: Frustrated residents unhappy with stay-at-home order say '''pandemic was last straw''' - ABC7 San Francisco

California Exodus: More people moving out of state than in for 1st time since 2010

California Witnessed a Mass Exodus in 2019

Meanwhile, the "exodus" did not affect jobs, economy or the CA budget which actually had a surplus up until the coronavirus and was wayyyyy better than the budget in the previous decade with the terminator as governor

 

[Fledermaus]

Meanwhile, the "exodus" did not affect jobs, economy or the CA budget which actually had a surplus up until the coronavirus and was wayyyyy better than the budget in the previous decade with the terminator as governor

Intentional ignorance of the job shift out of California.

Manufacturing jobs out. Service jobs in.

It is not only a population exodus...

But, hey, handwave all you want.

 

[pamak]

Intentional ignorance of the job shift out of California.

Manufacturing jobs out. Service jobs in.

It is not only a population exodus...

But, hey, handwave all you want.

Intentional ingrance of the fact that the big reduction of unemployment rates in California shows that the "exodus" did not create a problem of job shifts. Some jobs left and some workers left too. It is the balance that counts.

From a broader perspective, it is sad to see people fall again to the same propaganda which was sold during the early stages of the globalzation. The idea was to let corprorations function in the most supposedly business-firendly environment where the only thing that counts is the investors interests'. Suposedly the workers would also benefi tin such environment. That was what we heard from both democrats and republicans in the previous decades. The result of having the roughly lower 50% of the poulation suffer the effects of "flexible workforce" outsourcing and low paid part time jobs is the product of such culture and now we see conservatives ask the federal gvernment to intervene with measures like tarrifs. Meanwhile, it has becme clear that with rising inequality the roughly bottom 50% of the population is forced to compete for the left-over at the bottom of the bareel and its share in wealth distribution keeps shrinking

 

[Fledermaus]

Intentional ingrance of the fact that the big reduction of unemployment rates in California shows that the did not create a problem of job shifts. Some jobs left and some workers left too. It is the balance that counts.

On a broader perspective, it is sad to see people fall again to the same propaganda which was sold during the early stages of the globalzation. The idea was to let corprorations function in the most supposedly pro-firendly environment where the only thing that counts is the investors interests. Suposedly the workers would also benefitin such environment. That was what we heard from both democrats and republicans in the previous decades. The result of having the roughly lower 50% of the poulation suffer the effects of "flexible workforce" outsourcing and low paid part time jobs is the product of such culture and now we see conservatives ask the federal gvernment to intervene with measures like tarrifs.

When your state becomes the worst environment in which to to do business the businesses leave.

When you pile tax upon tax upon tax on the people then people leave.

You do know California is one of if not the most taxed stated. Right?

9.3% kicks in 58,000 single...

 

[pamak]

When your state becomes the worst environment in which to to do business the businesses leave.

When you pile tax upon tax upon tax on the people then people leave.

You do know California is one of if not the most taxed stated. Right?

9.3% kicks in 58,000 single...

You do know that California has a below average ptoperty tax rate right?

Again, the balance is that counts. Some business leave and other start here. Some workers leave and others come.

Meanwhle, I did not see any data that can link any exodus to rising unemployment. So, trying to make such claim needs evidence...

 

[Luther]

The hypothetical has everything to do about the conditions of a persons lives. People's behavior is not fixed. When one works 14 hours of day and does not have the luxury to pay for things that save time, like having people do his errands or help his kid with the homework or whatever, obviously he will not sped time reading about politics. So, the logical thing to do is to FIRST provide people opportunities and THEN criticize them instead of assuming of how the people will react

I just gave you the example of Germany regarding unions in the PRIVATE BUSINESS . And no, California big business in the private business are not pro union in California.

Your link about the frustrating Californias who move to TX does not change what I say. I did not say that there are not some frustrating Californias move to TX. I said (actually my link said) that California exports its poor to TX and in general it exports residents from the lower economic level while it imports new residents of higher economic level. So, the revenues for the state are not affected by such movement. But obviously, such change makes it more difficult for Californias at the lower 50% of the economy.


You make my point that people like you who thought that big companies in the 1990's will help the workers in the long-run had to flip flop and not be against globalization.

I won't respond to books no more

keep it simple

 

[pamak]

I won't respond to books no more

keep it simple

I know the new generation wants twitter style responses and this is one reason for why we are in such a mess. Most things cannot be discusses seriously in this way.

Meanwhile, for those who are into more reading, here is again Germany's pro-union laws in the PRIVATE MARKET

Codetermination in Germany - Wikipedia

Codetermination in Germany is a concept that involves the right of workers to participate in management of the companies they work for.[1] Known as Mitbestimmung, the modern law on codetermination is found principally in the Mitbestimmungsgesetz of 1976. The law allows workers to elect representatives (usually trade union representatives) for almost half of the supervisory board of directors


This applies to all big crproations in Germany from BMW to Siemens. Nw imagine if a politician here woud argue that Amazon or Google shoud let worker union representatives control almost half of the seats at the board of directors where all corproate decisions from wages to investments and CEO compensations take place, LOLOL

If people know these things, then they can understand better why the income gap between the average German worker and CEO is wayyyy narrower in Germany than in the US and why workers there have perks like a month of vacation or long maternit/paternity leave

 

[pamak]

And for thoose who do not have international experience to compare how workers (including low-level workers) are treated in other countries, here is a picture from a cashier in Europe

...

European Cashiers: Sitting versus Standing - Seven Wanders the World




Notice that he is sitting... This was one of the first differences that I noticed when I came to the US and to the supposedly "socialist" CA.

But yes, "unions" are evil in the US, so if metrics show that a standing cashier is slightly faster than a sitting one, this is the only thing that counts in big business

 

[pamak]

Unemployment in my area near San Francisco up until before the coronavirus was 2.3% (January 2020)

Unemployment Rate in San Francisco County/City, CA (CASANF0URN) | FRED | St. Louis Fed

And yes, many people are forced to leave San Francisco because they cannot afford the rising cost of living as more and more wealthier residents with higher education come in.

So people need to separate the claims they amke and not conflate them.

Is there anxiety among people towards the bottom half of the economic ladder? For sure! I do not try to deny this!
Are many people people forced to leave SF (or California) because of the impact on the cost of living by new incomers (often IT related workers with high salaries)?
Sure! I do not deny this!

But this does not mean that the people who stay are worse because jobs shift to other states nor does it mean that the state finance becomes worse. The people towards the lower economic level who stay become worse not because they canot find jobs but becasue the jobs they find cannot secure them a good living in places with high percentages of upper-middle class and educated employees who push the general cost of living up.

And by the way, since almst half of American workers do not pay income and property taxes, it should be obvious that when people from the bottom 40% leave the state, there is no serious impact on state and local budgers.

 

[Fledermaus]

Unemployment in my area near San Francisco up until before the coronavirus was 2.3% (January 2020)

Unemployment Rate in San Francisco County/City, CA (CASANF0URN) | FRED | St. Louis Fed

And yes, many people are forced to leave San Francisco because they cannot afford the rising cost of living as more and more wealthier residents with higher education come in.

So people need to separate the claims they amke and not conflate them.

Is there anxiety among people towards the bottom half of the economic ladder? For sure! I do not try to deny this!
Are many people people forced to leave SF (or California) because of the impact on the cost of living by new incomers (often IT related workers with high salaries)?
Sure! I do not deny this!

But this does not mean that the people who stay are worse because jobs shift to other states nor does it mean that the state finance becomes worse. The people towards the lower economic level who stay become worse not because they canot find jobs but becasue the jobs they find cannot secure them a good living in places with high percentages of upper-middle class and educated employees who push the general cost of living up.

And by the way, since almst half of American workers do not pay income and property taxes, it should be obvious that when people from the bottom 40% leave the state, there is no serious impact on state and local budgers.

It isn't the bottom 40% leaving.

 

[Fledermaus]

You do know that California has a below average ptoperty tax rate right?

Again, the balance is that counts. Some business leave and other start here. Some workers leave and others come.

Meanwhle, I did not see any data that can link any exodus to rising unemployment. So, trying to make such claim needs evidence...

Among the highest income tax.
Among the highest car tax.
Among the highest sales tax.
Among the highest gas tax.

Who stated unemployment was the sole motivation for moving?

 

[pamak]

It isn't the bottom 40% leaving.

No link for your claim. Meanwhile, I already posted a link for my claim even if it is 5 years old. From one of my previous posts

About 2.5 million people living close to the official poverty line left California for other states from 2005 through 2015, while 1.7 million people at that income level moved in from other states – for a net loss of 800,000. During the same period, the state experienced a net gain of about 20,000 residents earning at least five times the poverty rate – or $100,000 for a family of three.

and I also posted links showing a very low unemployment rate up until the coronavirus which do indicate that thee belief that the "job creators" are living and leave behind the bottom 40% which needs jobs does not match reality.

 

[pamak]

Among the highest income tax.
Among the highest car tax.
Among the highest sales tax.
Among the highest gas tax.

Who stated unemployment was the sole motivation for moving?

And those middle-class who pay the income tax have amng the highest paychecks in the nation and can also make lot of money through their property equity.

The budget of a middle-class family is not afffected by the sales and gas tax. And you must be aware that we VOTED for tax increases which gives a hint about how middle-class families in CA feel about such taxes !

If you want to argue about the poor and those close to the poverty level, then the big issue for them is by FAR rents and not sales or gas tax. Also the health coverage of the poor in CA is much better. and taxes are one reason for that. Same with access to state aid for tuition.

 

[Fledermaus]

And those middle-class who pay the income tax have amng the highest paychecks in the nation and can also make lot of money through their property equity.

The budget of a middle-class family is not afffected by the sales and gas tax. And you must be aware that we VOTED for tax increases which gives a hint about how middle-class families in CA feel about such taxes !

If you want to argue about the poor and those close to the poverty level, then the big issue for them is by FAR rents and not sales or gas tax. Also the health coverage of the poor in CA is much better. and taxes are one reason for that. Same with access to state aid for tuition.

Your first sentence of the second paragraph marks you as disconnected from reality.

Well the whole "make lot of money through their property equity" bit is silly...

 

[pamak]

Your first sentence of the second paragraph marks you as disconnected from reality.

Well the whole "make lot of money through their property equity" bit is silly...

Well, I guess then you are not a homeowner in CA. As property values increase, hoomeowners can sell the house that they bought a few years ago and end up with hundreds of thousands of dollars in profit. CA's market is much more developed and benefits most the middle-class howowner or investor. So, by the time they are ready to retire, middle-class Californians have the option to sell their small condo in the state and buy a much bigger house in most other states and STILL have tons of cash left-over from the sale.

 

[skeptic llc]

CA taxes are actually comparable to many "low tax" states -- EXCEPT for on the wealthiest taxpayers, who get soaked. Hence, the exodus of high income taxpayers, now that COVID has shown many don't have to be in CA (and to run their philanthropy through the CA state government's mandatory redistribution program).

 

[Luther]

You do know that California has a below average ptoperty tax rate right?

Again, the balance is that counts. Some business leave and other start here. Some workers leave and others come.

Meanwhle, I did not see any data that can link any exodus to rising unemployment. So, trying to make such claim needs evidence...

You do know that California has a below average ptoperty tax rate right?

So tell us about this "Below average property tax rate " when a 3 bed house goes for let say... 700,000?

Take your time

Some workers leave and others come.

Like illegal aliens?

I did not see any data that can link any exodus to rising unemployment.

Perhaps this is a reason?


Trump administration announces additional 35,000 seasonal worker visas - CNNPolitics

 

[Fledermaus]

Well, I guess then you are not a homeowner in CA. As property values increase, hoomeowners can sell the house that they bought a few years ago and end up with hundreds of thousands of dollars in profit. CA's market is much more developed and benefits most the middle-class howowner or investor. So, by the time they are ready to retire, middle-class Californians have the option to sell their small condo in the state and buy a much bigger house in most other states and STILL have tons of cash left-over from the sale.

Until one sells the house the house isn't profit.

And you are paying taxes, repair costs, mortgage, etc.

Money out.

Not money in.

No profit for decades in many cases.

 

[Fledermaus]

CA taxes are actually comparable to many "low tax" states -- EXCEPT for on the wealthiest taxpayers, who get soaked. Hence, the exodus of high income taxpayers, now that COVID has shown many don't have to be in CA (and to run their philanthropy through the CA state government's mandatory redistribution program).

9.3% income tax (single) at $58,000.....

$58,000 is the "wealthiest taxpayers"?

 

[skeptic llc]

9.3% income tax (single) at $58,000.....

$58,000 is the "wealthiest taxpayers"?

A single person earning $58,000 would owe $2,197 (3.8%), and a married couple would owe $946 (1.6%). (California Income Tax Calculator - SmartAsset)

Your statement ignores the effect of all of those dollars being taxed at much lower rates than the one you state. A taxpayer or couple would have to get well over $400K in order to start approaching a 9.3% effective tax rate.

 

[skeptic llc]

Not always true in practice. If you buy a house (as opposed to inheriting it), your property taxes are initially based on its market value. That's the squeeze period. Next, over time, your property taxes do not go up materially unless you build more house. (Incidentally, that's the reason California property taxes are low on net -- new homebuyers pay based on the home's full value, but no one else does.) So over time your mortgage and property taxes are essentially fixed; even as inflation goes on in the world around you and rents go up, your two biggest housing expenses are practically frozen at the lower-cost levels from the time when you bought the house. And as the house appreciates over time, you can borrow more and more against this new equity at the minute interest rates we've had for a long time now; that can be used to pay off higher rate debt and to invest, all paid for by the increased equity you got simply for hanging onto your home.

 

[skeptic llc]

So tell us about this "Below average property tax rate " when a 3 bed house goes for let say... 700,000?

Take your time

Sure. If you buy at a high price, your property taxes start correspondingly high. But then they don't get up meaningfully for as long as you own your home (annual increase is capped at around 2%, regardless of how much the value goes up). Many people don't even pay that much, since their property tax basis is inherited from what their parents or even grandparents paid long, long ago. So as a percentage of property values, property taxes in California are relatively low. This is particularly true of commercial properties owned by individuals.