California utility will shut off power to 800,000 people to prevent wildfires

weaver2 · Oct 8, 2019

Pacific Gas & Electric plans to cut power to 34 northern and central counties in state’s biggest-ever preventive outage
With windy, dry weather in the forecast and warnings of extreme fire danger, Pacific Gas & Electric utility said it will start turning off power to 34 counties in northern and central California after midnight Wednesday.
Guardian staff and agencies
Tue 8 Oct 2019 18.26 EDT

This is an outrage!!! PG&E power lines started almost all the fires that devastated Northern California last year and the year before. The fires start because PG&E saves money by loosely stringing power lines. Taut lines cost more money. But, loose lines slap together in strong winds, spark and start fires. PG&E knew their loose lines were sparking near Paradise because a home owner had called them twice. They did nothing and the town of Paradise burned completely to the ground. 85 people were trapped and died in that fire. So now the yearly Santa Ana winds have returned. And the prospect of fires loom large.

What is PG&E's solution to prevent fires? Tighten up the lines? Nope! Do what they are supposed to do with the flammable trees and shrubs under the lines, cut them back? Nope! Have fire equipment and trained personnel in the areas where fires are most likely to start? Nope! Their solution? Shut off power to 800,000 people until the winds stop.

This corporation has started over 20 fires, killed over 100 people, polluted the drinking water of hundreds of families and caused cancer, birth defects, early deaths, and debilitated health. Why is this corporation still in business??? What 's wrong with a country that let's a corporation get away with fire, pollution and killings?

Drawdown · Oct 8, 2019

So you want them to leave the power on and chance burning down 800K houses? I am not sure why you are bent because they are actually taking some precautions albeit inconvenient ones for many people.

trixare4kids · Oct 8, 2019

weaver2 said:
Pacific Gas & Electric plans to cut power to 34 northern and central counties in state’s biggest-ever preventive outage
With windy, dry weather in the forecast and warnings of extreme fire danger, Pacific Gas & Electric utility said it will start turning off power to 34 counties in northern and central California after midnight Wednesday.
Guardian staff and agencies
Tue 8 Oct 2019 18.26 EDT

This is an outrage!!! PG&E power lines started almost all the fires that devastated Northern California last year and the year before. The fires start because PG&E saves money by loosely stringing power lines. Taut lines cost more money. But, loose lines slap together in strong winds, spark and start fires. PG&E knew their loose lines were sparking near Paradise because a home owner had called them twice. They did nothing and the town of Paradise burned completely to the ground. 85 people were trapped and died in that fire. So now the yearly Santa Ana winds have returned. And the prospect of fires loom large.

What is PG&E's solution to prevent fires? Tighten up the lines? Nope! Do what they are supposed to do with the flammable trees and shrubs under the lines, cut them back? Nope! Have fire equipment and trained personnel in the areas where fires are most likely to start? Nope! Their solution? Shut off power to 800,000 people until the winds stop.

This corporation has started over 20 fires, killed over 100 people, polluted the drinking water of hundreds of families and caused cancer, birth defects, early deaths, and debilitated health. Why is this corporation still in business??? What 's wrong with a country that let's a corporation get away with fire, pollution and killings?

They will shut it off in my neighborhood when the winds make their way south sometime at the end of the week. I live in San Diego county.
I don't mind.... We have a generator to power up when they shut the power off. I'd rather have the power turned off than risk the powerlines starting another devastating wild fire. The humidity levels drop to zero, and the winds whip through here at 40-60 mph gusts...

I understand your angst, but until the power lines go underground there is not much we can do. Ten percent of these fires are due to down power lines. The rest are just people being stupid when the Santa Ana winds come a blowing...

Dozens of devastating fires in the state have been started by live power lines, resulting in tens of thousands of homes lost, and loss of life. I'm not trying to minimize. Only trying to say, it's going to take time for all these lines to go underground...

Read why...

there is a growing outcry from among many in the state for utilities to become more aggressive in burying power lines, especially transmission lines that traverse heavily forested areas. Such an effort is not cheap, of course. An article in the San Francisco Chronicle reported undergrounding of that type can cost up to $5 million a mile and that it would cost PG&E over $100 billion to underground all of its high-power lines. Besides the cost, there is concern about digging in environmentally sensitive areas.

Still, such work is being done in parts of the state. San Diego Gas & Electric reports that 60 percent of its lines are now underground, including rural lines running through areas that are prone to wildfires. And, the utility just announced plans to begin converting another 20 miles of overhead lines to underground in a rural area with a high fire risk in its service territory.

The Link Between Power Lines and Wildfires | Electrical Contractor Magazine

HAL9000 · Oct 8, 2019

trixare4kids said:
They will shut it off in my neighborhood when the winds make their way south sometime at the end of the week. I live in San Diego county.
I don't mind.... We have a generator to power up when they shut the power off. I'd rather have the power turned off than risk the powerlines starting another devastating wild fire. The humidity levels drop to zero, and the winds whip through here at 40-60 mph gusts...

I understand your angst, but until the power lines go underground there is not much we can do. Ten percent of these fires are due to down power lines. The rest are just people being stupid when the Santa Ana winds come a blowing...

Dozens of devastating fires in the state have been started by live power lines, resulting in tens of thousands of homes lost, and loss of life.

The Link Between Power Lines and Wildfires | Electrical Contractor Magazine

Doesn't help with how much of the fire prone land in California is under federal jurisdiction, and how the Trump admin cut the funding to maintain it, while threatening to cut the funding completely because we're not all out there raking it, like he imagines the Finnish do.

WillyPete · Oct 8, 2019

I see this as a primo example of malicious compliance.

Drawdown said:
So you want them to leave the power on and chance burning down 800K houses? I am not sure why you are bent because they are actually taking some precautions albeit inconvenient ones for many people.

The part I think you're missing is where we have already paid them to taken precautions against those fires. Some of those electrical towers that started fires were up way past their expiration.

So now they do the only short-term thing they can, while they resist doing anything to make it right long-term.

In California, the mismanagement of state resources (to say nothing of outright fraud) is stunning.

trixare4kids · Oct 8, 2019

HAL9000 said:
Doesn't help with how much of the fire prone land in California is under federal jurisdiction, and how the Trump admin cut the funding to maintain it, while threatening to cut the funding completely because we're not all out there raking it, like he imagines the Finnish do.

Congratulations!
You win the booby prize for being the first to make the thread about Trump.

HAL9000 · Oct 8, 2019

trixare4kids said:
Congratulations!
You win the booby prize for being the first to make the thread about Trump.

Tell me, did the 2018 Camp Fire, the deadliest and most destructive fire in state history, which started from PG&E line failures, start and spread in federal land or in state land?

Drawdown · Oct 8, 2019

WillyPete said:
I see this as a primo example of malicious compliance.

The part I think you're missing is where we have already paid them to taken precautions against those fires. Some of those electrical towers that started fires were up way past their expiration.

So now they do the only short-term thing they can, while they resist doing anything to make it right long-term.

In California, the mismanagement of state resources (to say nothing of outright fraud) is stunning.

PG&E is in bankruptcy and is struggling to find a way to pay out about $30B. The last thing it would need would be to add another $20B on top of that. I personally think California's law holding utilities to a strict liability standard for anyone harmed is too excessive. Either way, you cannot fix decades of neglect over night. They are doing what they can do. I don't see this as malicious. I see it as them having no other choice.

WillyPete · Oct 8, 2019

Drawdown said:
PG&E is in bankruptcy and is struggling to find a way to pay out about $30B. The last thing it would need would be to add another $20B on top of that. I personally think California's law holding utilities to a strict liability standard for anyone harmed is too excessive. Either way, you cannot fix decades of neglect over night. They are doing what they can do. I don't see this as malicious. I see it as them having no other choice.

Oh don't worry, the scams not over. They'll have a nice bail out, just as soon as the state can approve a bond measure for them.

Drawdown · Oct 8, 2019

WillyPete said:
Oh don't worry, the scams not over. They'll have a nice bail out, just as soon as the state can approve a bond measure for them.

I think they have to have their bankruptcy plan set in stone first and then they become eligible for state funding. That is part of the ridiculousness to me of California moreso than PG&E. Make utilities strictly liable and then use public money to offset the cost of the strict liability. It seems more like a backhanded way to subsidize trial lawyers with guaranteed fees with no work involved off the strict liability claims than it does to serve a legitimate public purpose related to utilities.

weaver2 · Oct 9, 2019

WillyPete said:
I see this as a primo example of malicious compliance.

The part I think you're missing is where we have already paid them to taken precautions against those fires. Some of those electrical towers that started fires were up way past their expiration.

So now they do the only short-term thing they can, while they resist doing anything to make it right long-term.

In California, the mismanagement of state resources (to say nothing of outright fraud) is stunning.

PG&E Was given some sort of significant benefit if they would do the line maintenance. They have not lived up to the bargain. Additionally they have had three years to do something about line improvement. they've done nothing. This is not a corporation that is struggling to fulfill it's obligations against impossible odd. Oregon has the same lines, the same flammable material under the lines, and we get high winds off the Cascades. No power line has ever started a wild fire. This corporation has declared bankruptcy at least 3 times to avoid paying for damages they caused. They are getting ready to declare again and flip the bird at the people trapped in their fire in Paradise.

weaver2 · Oct 9, 2019

Drawdown said:
PG&E is in bankruptcy and is struggling to find a way to pay out about $30B. The last thing it would need would be to add another $20B on top of that. I personally think California's law holding utilities to a strict liability standard for anyone harmed is too excessive. Either way, you cannot fix decades of neglect over night. They are doing what they can do. I don't see this as malicious. I see it as them having no other choice.

They've done this bankruptcy scam at least 3 times over the last 30 years. This is corporate policy not a poor little struggling company facing a one time natural disaster.

BahamaBob · Oct 9, 2019

Hmm, the system is stretched to the max, no money for maintenance let alone expansion. Not good news for the electric car crowd.

Glitch · Oct 9, 2019

trixare4kids said:
They will shut it off in my neighborhood when the winds make their way south sometime at the end of the week. I live in San Diego county.
I don't mind.... We have a generator to power up when they shut the power off. I'd rather have the power turned off than risk the powerlines starting another devastating wild fire. The humidity levels drop to zero, and the winds whip through here at 40-60 mph gusts...

I understand your angst, but until the power lines go underground there is not much we can do. Ten percent of these fires are due to down power lines. The rest are just people being stupid when the Santa Ana winds come a blowing...

Dozens of devastating fires in the state have been started by live power lines, resulting in tens of thousands of homes lost, and loss of life. I'm not trying to minimize. Only trying to say, it's going to take time for all these lines to go underground...

Read why...

The Link Between Power Lines and Wildfires | Electrical Contractor Magazine

California has some very strange policies indeed. We get hurricane force winds (greater than 85 mph sustained winds, with gusts up to 120 mph) called the Chinook Winds. Similar to California's Santa Anna Winds. It also contains warm dry air and originates from the south. Nobody has their power cut, although people do lose power. It is not because the power company turns off their power, it is usually because some tree is blown over and takes down a power line.

We also have much bigger fires than California. More than 2.5 million acres have burned in Alaska since this year began, but the overwhelming majority of our fires (85%+) were started by lightning strikes, not power lines or any human involvement.

jdog21 · Oct 9, 2019

weaver2 said:
Pacific Gas & Electric plans to cut power to 34 northern and central counties in state’s biggest-ever preventive outage
With windy, dry weather in the forecast and warnings of extreme fire danger, Pacific Gas & Electric utility said it will start turning off power to 34 counties in northern and central California after midnight Wednesday.
Guardian staff and agencies
Tue 8 Oct 2019 18.26 EDT

This is an outrage!!! PG&E power lines started almost all the fires that devastated Northern California last year and the year before. The fires start because PG&E saves money by loosely stringing power lines. Taut lines cost more money. But, loose lines slap together in strong winds, spark and start fires. PG&E knew their loose lines were sparking near Paradise because a home owner had called them twice. They did nothing and the town of Paradise burned completely to the ground. 85 people were trapped and died in that fire. So now the yearly Santa Ana winds have returned. And the prospect of fires loom large.

What is PG&E's solution to prevent fires? Tighten up the lines? Nope! Do what they are supposed to do with the flammable trees and shrubs under the lines, cut them back? Nope! Have fire equipment and trained personnel in the areas where fires are most likely to start? Nope! Their solution? Shut off power to 800,000 people until the winds stop.

This corporation has started over 20 fires, killed over 100 people, polluted the drinking water of hundreds of families and caused cancer, birth defects, early deaths, and debilitated health. Why is this corporation still in business??? What 's wrong with a country that let's a corporation get away with fire, pollution and killings?

Slack in the power lines can not be tightened up like you suggest. There is a reason they have slack like that. The areas do not have sufficient generation assets and longer then normal distribution areas, causing bigger swings voltage causing larger delta of heat from low load times compared to heavy use times, and that slack allows the line to tighten in low load and hang lower during times of heavy use due to thermal expansion. Tightening them up would cause them to snap the poles they hang on.
Do some research before you come up with crazy conspiracy theories.
Maybe if the state didn't hold them liable for all the damage a fire causes then maybe they would cut off power during times when the fire index gets super high.

jdog21 · Oct 9, 2019

HAL9000 said:
Tell me, did the 2018 Camp Fire, the deadliest and most destructive fire in state history, which started from PG&E line failures, start and spread in federal land or in state land?

Tell me does the federal government have to comply with state regulation on environmental issues even thou its federal land?

HAL9000 · Oct 9, 2019

Glitch said:
California has some very strange policies indeed. We get hurricane force winds (greater than 85 mph sustained winds, with gusts up to 120 mph) called the Chinook Winds. Similar to California's Santa Anna Winds. It also contains warm dry air and originates from the south. Nobody has their power cut, although people do lose power. It is not because the power company turns off their power, it is usually because some tree is blown over and takes down a power line.

We also have much bigger fires than California. More than 2.5 million acres have burned in Alaska since this year began, but the overwhelming majority of our fires (85%+) were started by lightning strikes, not power lines or any human involvement.

You also have a lot more space where no one gives a ****, because Alaska's population density is 212x lower than California's. But something tells me that extra 74 inches of average snowfall and 27F lower average annual temperature has something to do with the lower severity of fires in places where people do care.

HAL9000 · Oct 9, 2019

jdog21 said:
Tell me does the federal government have to comply with state regulation on environmental issues even thou its federal land?

I dunno, is money a thing that can determine the extent to which a given jurisdiction can comply with applicable regulations?

jdog21 · Oct 9, 2019

Glitch said:
California has some very strange policies indeed. We get hurricane force winds (greater than 85 mph sustained winds, with gusts up to 120 mph) called the Chinook Winds. Similar to California's Santa Anna Winds. It also contains warm dry air and originates from the south. Nobody has their power cut, although people do lose power. It is not because the power company turns off their power, it is usually because some tree is blown over and takes down a power line.

We also have much bigger fires than California. More than 2.5 million acres have burned in Alaska since this year began, but the overwhelming majority of our fires (85%+) were started by lightning strikes, not power lines or any human involvement.

It all has to do with the government. They block you when you try and chop a tree down, then hold you accountable for all the money that fire caused when the tree fell and hit the power line. Plus no other state has a dead tree problem like CA does.

jdog21 · Oct 9, 2019

HAL9000 said:
I dunno, is money a thing that can determine the extent to which a given jurisdiction can comply with applicable regulations?

When BLM or USDF try and clear the forest of dead trees and dangerous underbrush, the state blocks them due to environmental concerns and makes them jump through hoops to do indian burial mitigation and environmental studies before proceeding, driving up costs and slowing down logging.

Aberration · Oct 9, 2019

What a tantrum. Provide your own power. [emoji2369]

HAL9000 · Oct 9, 2019

jdog21 said:
When BLM or USDF try and clear the forest of dead trees and dangerous underbrush, the state blocks them due to environmental concerns and makes them jump through hoops to do indian burial mitigation and environmental studies before proceeding, driving up costs and slowing down logging.

But say I wanted to gather the bones of Cinon Duro Mataweer, hold them in my teeth, and do a raindance better than Charles Hatfield, how much would that cost?

In other words, can you give me numbers?

Drawdown · Oct 9, 2019

weaver2 said:
They've done this bankruptcy scam at least 3 times over the last 30 years. This is corporate policy not a poor little struggling company facing a one time natural disaster.

I didn't say they were a poor struggling company or that they were facing a one time disaster. Their last bankruptcy was the result of drought sending spot market utility prices up ten fold. Only an idiot would be in the gas business in California anyway.

Edison is facing its own lawsuit over the Woosley fire because of the idiotic strict liability laws in California.

Thoreau72 · Oct 9, 2019

The company is trying to continue operating, and turning off the power is the easiest way to avoid further liability.

Turning off the power is certainly easier than restringing lines or burying them.

eman623 · Oct 9, 2019

WillyPete said:
I see this as a primo example of malicious compliance.

The part I think you're missing is where we have already paid them to taken precautions against those fires. Some of those electrical towers that started fires were up way past their expiration.

So now they do the only short-term thing they can, while they resist doing anything to make it right long-term.

In California, the mismanagement of state resources (to say nothing of outright fraud) is stunning.

The Dems control everything here is California - including the state PUC (Public Utility Commission) and they mismanage that like they do everything else. They allowed SoCalEdison to pay huge dividends while neglecting maintainance, replacing old equipment and keeping forests where the power lines run clear.

This is what happens when you have a one-party rule banana republic. Except that in most one-party places like China they manage to keep the lights on.

California - America's Haiti

or my personal favorite:

Calcuttafornia

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