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California Prop. 73 RE minors - advice?

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I'm looking at the issues for our upcoming special election in California. I haven't yet decided how I'm going to vote on proposition 73. The basic description of my choice is that if I vote yes, there is new law written into the California constitution which makes it illegal for an unemancipated minor to get an abortion without parental consent.

I am a moderately conservative kind of guy, but I can see some value in both the for and against arguments on this proposition.

Could I get some advice on or discussion of the issue?

Page with links to proposition information

And, yes, this is a local government issue, but California kind of sets the pace for the rest of the US in many of these political issues.
 

Fantasea

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Occam's Butter Knife said:
I'm looking at the issues for our upcoming special election in California. I haven't yet decided how I'm going to vote on proposition 73. The basic description of my choice is that if I vote yes, there is new law written into the California constitution which makes it illegal for an unemancipated minor to get an abortion without parental consent.

I am a moderately conservative kind of guy, but I can see some value in both the for and against arguments on this proposition.

Could I get some advice on or discussion of the issue?

Page with links to proposition information

And, yes, this is a local government issue, but California kind of sets the pace for the rest of the US in many of these political issues.
This should be an easy decision for you.

Think of it this way. If a teen aged girl visits the school nurse seeking something to relieve menstrual cramps, the nurse needs parental consent before she can administer an over the counter remedy such as Midol.

If this same kid becomes pregnant and goes to the same school nurse seeking a confidential abortion referral, the nurse needs no parental consent to provide it.

Now, go make your decision.
 

vergiss

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What, so you want 15-year-olds breeding everywhere? :roll:

Brilliant. As if mankind isn't crap enough already.
 
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vergiss said:
What, so you want 15-year-olds breeding everywhere? :roll:

Brilliant. As if mankind isn't crap enough already.
Uh no.

I might be happier with this law if it applied to 16 and under, but it applies to 18 and under. My gut reaction is to vote yes for this, because I don't agree with aborting children as a matter of convenience or financial hardship. When my first was born, it was tough, but we made it through.

I talked this over with my wife and whe told me of several persons who she had known who almost died from home-grown abortions. I can see some teen trying this. Also, not all of these teens come from homes where they could easily ask their parents or they come from broken homes. Not all parents are good parents.

I doubt this law will have any effect on any teens becoming pregnant or not, just what happens after that.

The law does contain a provision that a minor can file a petition with the Juvenile Court in the case that there is some home abuse or something going on. I don't know how likely it is that a juvenile would follow that process through, though.
 

MrFungus420

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My thought on it is similar to Fantasea's.

It is a medical procedure. Medical procedures performed on minors require parental consent.

I don't think there should even be a discussion on it.
 
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Fantasea said:
This should be an easy decision for you.

Think of it this way. If a teen aged girl visits the school nurse seeking something to relieve menstrual cramps, the nurse needs parental consent before she can administer an over the counter remedy such as Midol.

If this same kid becomes pregnant and goes to the same school nurse seeking a confidential abortion referral, the nurse needs no parental consent to provide it.

Now, go make your decision.
And how horrible would it be if that teen then went and stole some Midol? But if she decides to try a self abortion and bungles it, she may end up dead herself. (I don't know if self abortion is the right term, maybe "self-performed abortion" would be better, but that's how the media generally refers to it. Wouldn't self abortion technically be suicide?)
 
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MrFungus420 said:
My thought on it is similar to Fantasea's.

It is a medical procedure. Medical procedures performed on minors require parental consent.

I don't think there should even be a discussion on it.
Yes, it is a medical procedure and that fact is relevant to the legal aspect of this issue. On a purely legal basis I have to agree.

I think the whole abortion issue has more than just a legal aspect. The closest comparison I can come up with is prohibition. Making alcohol illegal didn't stop it's use. Making abortion illegal for minors won't stop minors from trying to do it themselves.
 

vergiss

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I think that in Australia, people 16 and over are able to have the final say for themselves regarding medical procedures.

I don't see what use this law would have for anyone, not even the anti-abortion movement.
 

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Occam's Butter Knife said:
Could I get some advice on or discussion of the issue?
Here is what the parents of a girl from Indianasaid after a parental notification law was passed in their state. They testified at a congressional hearing about this very issue:

http://www.ms4c.org/update/598bell.htm
"...One day, we got a letter from Peter Jennings. He wanted us to be on the news to talk about Becky, who was the first teenager known to die because of a parental consent law. I said, "Bill, what's parental consent?" He didn't know either. That's when we started looking into what happened to Becky.

Bill and I talked to Becky's friends and learned that she had sought an abortion at Planned Parenthood. They told Becky that they would help her but that because she was a minor, she had to get a parent's permission to comply with Indiana law. If she couldn't talk to a parent, she could seek permission from a judge.

Becky told the counselor, "If I can't tell my mom and dad, how can I tell the judge?"..."
 

Fantasea

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vergiss said:
What, so you want 15-year-olds breeding everywhere? :roll:

Brilliant. As if mankind isn't crap enough already.
Is it too much to ask that more of them behave responsibly. Most do, you know.

(You already told us that you are not among those who behave responsibly.)
 

Fantasea

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Occam's Butter Knife said:
And how horrible would it be if that teen then went and stole some Midol? But if she decides to try a self abortion and bungles it, she may end up dead herself. (I don't know if self abortion is the right term, maybe "self-performed abortion" would be better, but that's how the media generally refers to it. Wouldn't self abortion technically be suicide?)
How do the antics of a relatively small number of foolish girls compare to the million and a half babies aborted each year?

Which is the greater "horror"?
 

Fantasea

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steen said:
Here is what the parents of a girl from Indianasaid after a parental notification law was passed in their state. They testified at a congressional hearing about this very issue:

http://www.ms4c.org/update/598bell.htm
"...One day, we got a letter from Peter Jennings. He wanted us to be on the news to talk about Becky, who was the first teenager known to die because of a parental consent law. I said, "Bill, what's parental consent?" He didn't know either. That's when we started looking into what happened to Becky.

Bill and I talked to Becky's friends and learned that she had sought an abortion at Planned Parenthood. They told Becky that they would help her but that because she was a minor, she had to get a parent's permission to comply with Indiana law. If she couldn't talk to a parent, she could seek permission from a judge.

Becky told the counselor, "If I can't tell my mom and dad, how can I tell the judge?"..."
"One robin does not a spring make."
 

Fantasea

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Occam's Butter Knife said:
Yes, it is a medical procedure and that fact is relevant to the legal aspect of this issue. On a purely legal basis I have to agree.

I think the whole abortion issue has more than just a legal aspect. The closest comparison I can come up with is prohibition. Making alcohol illegal didn't stop it's use. Making abortion illegal for minors won't stop minors from trying to do it themselves.
The reason prohibition didn't work is simple. Laws cannot regulate human conduct.

All any law can do is to is to describe prohibited conduct and enumerate penalties exacted from those convicted of violating it.

Ignoring irresponsible behavior among teen-agers does nothing to solve the problem.
 

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I personally would not want my child to have the right to have an abortion without my knowledge. I believe I would be very pissed if I found out someone had performed an abortion on my daughter without my consent.
 

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mistermain said:
I personally would not want my child to have the right to have an abortion without my knowledge. I believe I would be very pissed if I found out someone had performed an abortion on my daughter without my consent.
It is obvious that you are not politically correct. ;)
 

mistermain

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Fantasea said:
It is obvious that you are not politically correct. ;)
You're right, I'm not, but how did you get that from my post?
 

Fantasea

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mistermain said:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fantasea
It is obvious that you are not politically correct.

You're right, I'm not, but how did you get that from my post?
Simple. The giveaway was that your post made too much sense to have been written by a member of the politically correct crowd.

The politically correct approach does not contemplate whether something is right or wrong, correct or incorrect; but whether life is made easier for someone by removing any sense of responsibility which might appear to be burdensome.

In short, a throwback to the flower children of the sixties and seventies -- if it feels good, it must be good; so go ahead and do it without a second thought to any consequences.
 

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Fantasea said:
mistermain said:
Quote:

In short, a throwback to the flower children of the sixties and seventies -- if it feels good, it must be good; so go ahead and do it without a second thought to any consequences.
I would say this is the essence of liberalism. Add to it the victim mentality where they are not responsible for the consequences of their actions, so somebody else must pay for them.
 

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Fantasea said:
How do the antics of a relatively small number of foolish girls compare to the million and a half babies aborted each year?

Which is the greater "horror"?
I am horrified and astonished that you even can pose such a question, that you find the abortion of mindless, non-sensate tissue in any way to be worse than the death of girls. You clearly should be ashamed of yourself, but obviously you are not.

I understand that you find mindless tissue to be in any way comparable in value to the life of girls and find the death of live, sentient girls to be a small price to pay to push your fetocentrist agenda of oppressing women. I guess you don't find the girls' death opposing to your agenda of oppressing them. I find your sentiment disgusting.
 

steen

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mistermain said:
I personally would not want my child to have the right to have an abortion without my knowledge. I believe I would be very pissed if I found out someone had performed an abortion on my daughter without my consent.
Would you be more pissed if she died because she tried to get an abortion without your knowledge, but couldn't find a safe, legal provider and instead ended up with an unsafe abortion instead? Is your daughter's life a price you are willing to pay?
 

steen

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Fantasea said:
"One robin does not a spring make."
Sure. Becky Bell was just a girl, so you don't care if she is dead or not.
 

Fantasea

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steen said:
Originally Posted by Fantasea
How do the antics of a relatively small number of foolish girls compare to the million and a half babies aborted each year?

Which is the greater "horror"?
I am horrified and astonished that you even can pose such a question, that you find the abortion of mindless, non-sensate tissue in any way to be worse than the death of girls. You clearly should be ashamed of yourself, but obviously you are not.

I understand that you find mindless tissue to be in any way comparable in value to the life of girls and find the death of live, sentient girls to be a small price to pay to push your fetocentrist agenda of oppressing women. I guess you don't find the girls' death opposing to your agenda of oppressing them. I find your sentiment disgusting.
It's simple enough. Just do the math.
 

Fantasea

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steen said:
Sure. Becky Bell was just a girl, so you don't care if she is dead or not.
Choices have consequences. Consequences have risk. Becky Bell was responsible for her actions.

Foolish persons will do foolish things. Their actions do not justify the killing of millions of children in the womb simply to avoid embarrassment or inconvenience.
 

Fantasea

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steen said:
Fantasea said:
Yeah, dead girls vs dead embryos, and your math picks the embryos. Your view truly is disgusting and vile.
Dead humans are dead humans. Either way, it is sad. However, attempting to justify the death of millions of unborn children is pointless.
 
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