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Cain's Wife, AKA Sister?

shake3

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This is a discussion prompted by a post in the "my thought on gay marriage" thread.
shuamort said:
As for Adam and Eve. Let's talk about incest and its problems keep the gene pool purdy:
Interbreeding two families causes severe retardation, mutation and infertility. The problem increases with severity the more the inbreeding occurs.

"...full-sibling or parent-child incest results in about 17% child mortality and 25% child disability, for a combined result of about 42% nonviable offspring"
Donald Brown, 'Human Universals' pp123

The phenomenon of nonviable offspring from breeding between closely related family members is not limited to Humans, but to most life, especially amongst mammals and multicellular organisms:

"A study of 38 captive mammalian species found a cross-species average of around 33% offspring mortality resulting from closely incestuous matings"
Donald Brown, 'Human Universals' pp124

Moreover, Kookieq, you'll have to show us where in the Bible it says that God created only Adam and Eve. It's obvious that either He created more people and they just weren't mentioned or that the Bible is wrong. So, Adam and Eve begat Cain and Abel. Then, according to the Bible, Cain goes off to the land of Nod to be with his wife.
Shuamort raises an interesting question. Did God really just create two humans, or did He create more people too? The Genesis creation account never mentions created humans other than Adam and Eve, and it such language as "the man" and "the woman" when referring to Adam and Eve. The Bible also makes specific claims that Adam and Eve were the ancestors of all other humans. Genesis 3:20 says, "Adam named his wife Eve, because she would become the mother of all the living" (italics mine). And we find in Romans 5's discussion on sin, "...through one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin, and so death passed on all men inasmuch as all sinned." If Adam were not the ancestor of all humans, sin could have not "passed on all men."
 

shake3

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shuamort said:
Wait. Where'd Cain's wife come from? (And if you offer incest, please let it be known that that's prohibited by verses in Leviticus).
It's important to remember in all of this that OT narrative often skips long periods of time. Cain probably lived quite a long time before he actually killed Abel. Let's take a look at some Genesis genealogy, specifically Genesis 5:3-4: "When Adam had lived 130 years, he had a son in his own likeness, in his own image; and he named him Seth. After Seth was born, Adam lived 800 years and had other sons and daughters." So, since Seth was considered Abel's "replacement" (Gen. 4:25), Cain likely lived over 100 years before he killed Abel. During that time, multiple generations could have come out of Adam and Eve's line. And since people lived much longer than they do today, the population's growth would not have been slowed as much by death. Not only would this have provided Cain with a wife, but it also explains who Cain feared would kill him after God exiled him.
Now the question of incest comes up. True, Torah forbids incest and even gives some harsh penalties for those who practice it (Leviticus 18-20). But keep in mind that Torah was not given to Israel until several thousand years after the time of Adam and Eve. Why did God wait so long to outlaw incest? Well, we know that the human race has undergone (and continues to undergo) degeneration due to genetic defects accumulating over time, and shuamort provided us with the current statistics showing us what effects these defects are having. Early in human history, however, there would not have been nearly as many accumulated genetic defects, making the risks associated with incest minimal enough as to make it a non-issue. But by the time of Moses, the risks had increased to the point where anti-incest laws were necessary.

My thanks to the authors of the articles at http://www.answersingenesis.org/home/area/tools/cains_wife.asp and http://www.icr.org/pubs/imp/pdf/imp-308.pdf for the help they provided.
 
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Schweddy

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Gunna get slammed for this...but this is what I believe. (to folks that remember what I have said about races this might make sense)

001:026 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our
likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea,
and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over
all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth
upon the earth.

001:027 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God
created he him; male and female created he them.

Notice that it says fish, fowl, cattle, and over earth.

002:007 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and
breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became
a living soul.

002:008 And the LORD God planted a garden eastward in Eden; and there
he put the man whom he had formed.

Umm... wait! Didn't he already make man?

002:015 And the LORD God took the man, and put him into the garden of
Eden to dress it and to keep it.

Ahh... Adam was for the garden of eden a farmer even. :)
God made his favorite last.

002:018 And the LORD God said, It is not good that the man should be
alone; I will make him an help meet for him.

Again... didn't he already create them in chapter 1?

His favorite man has to have a mate, so he made eve. He told them do not have sex. (tree of knowledge) Tree always represents man in the good book. Serpent - um... put 2 and 2 together.

Eve had sex with the serpent... a big no-no... found out it was kick ass then went to Adam and gave him some. God found out when she was pregnate with twins - Cain and Able. One from Satan and one from Adam. Guess as to which is which.

004:001 And Adam knew Eve his wife; and she conceived, and bare Cain,
and said, I have gotten a man from the LORD.

004:002 And she again bare his brother Abel. And Abel was a keeper of
sheep, but Cain was a tiller of the ground.

Since he had already made the races (see 1:27 above) - there was no incest.

The story of the bible is the story of the blood line to Christ which transended through Able before his death.
 

shuamort

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vauge said:
Since he had already made the races (see 1:27 above) - there was no incest.
Ahh, but what Genesis 001:018 would contradict that line of thinking when it says: 'It is not good that man should be alone; I will make him a helper comparable to him." God created Adam but created him alone. It is surmiseable to say that alone meant no other beings and as such, no other races had been created at that point.
 

Schweddy

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Right.

He created the human race(s), then he went on (the next week) to create "his chosen race" - Adam then Eve. Adam was alone after the individual creation of him. So, like all other races, he needed a companion.
 

shake3

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vauge said:
His favorite man has to have a mate, so he made eve. He told them do not have sex. (tree of knowledge) Tree always represents man in the good book. Serpent - um... put 2 and 2 together.

Eve had sex with the serpent... a big no-no... found out it was kick ass then went to Adam and gave him some. God found out when she was pregnate with twins - Cain and Able. One from Satan and one from Adam. Guess as to which is which.
I agree with you on a lot of things, vauge, but this is definitely not one of them. First of all, God did tell Adam and Eve to have sex (Gen. 1:28 ). As for all the symbolism and such that you infer from this passage, what do you base it on? For one, Genesis 4:1-2 makes it clear that Cain and Abel were not twins: "Now Adam knew Eve his wife, and she conceived and bore Cain, and said, "I have acquired a man from the LORD." Then she bore again, this time his brother Abel."
vauge said:
The story of the bible is the story of the blood line to Christ which transended through Able before his death.
No, that is an impossibility. Take another look the list of Adam's descendants in Genesis 5. Noah (through whom everyone after the flood descended) was a descendant of Seth.
 

Schweddy

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He told all the races to have sex - not Adam. Adam wasn't created yet in 1:28. The story is linear.

In my bible, I wrote that the word "again" in the Hebrew scriptures actually means "continued to". Eve continued to bare Able. Thus - twins.

You are right - it was Seth not Able. Unsure why I wrote that. The only book that doesn't seem to belong to this rule is Esther. Where did that book come from?

Anyway...they first were naked and not ashamed (2:25). Then Satan seduced Eve. Eve showed Adam the cool new knowledge of sex. Then they both noticed that they were naked. (3:7) Before God found out.

There is ALOT more going on here, but that is off topic.

How else would you write a story about sex without getting stoned to death back then?

Seth took off to another land (4:16) and then married (4:17)- where did his wife come from?
 
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Pacridge

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vauge said:
Right.

He created the human race(s), then he went on (the next week) to create "his chosen race" - Adam then Eve. Adam was alone after the individual creation of him. So, like all other races, he needed a companion.
So you believe God has a favorite Race? And which Race is that?
 

Schweddy

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That is tuff to determine. No one knows where/who the 7 tribes actually are.
Many scholars have thier theories (of course).

The Jews believe that they are the chosen race.
Some believe that the chosen race is here in America.

I dunno nor claim it.
 

anomaly

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Well, viewing this conversation has certainly made me glad that I am not a Christian! A 'chosen race'? Maybe Hitler wasn't so crazy, God was just talkin'! None of you seriously buy this 'chosen race' bull****, do you? It just opens the door to racism.
 

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anomaly said:
Well, viewing this conversation has certainly made me glad that I am not a Christian! A 'chosen race'? Maybe Hitler wasn't so crazy, God was just talkin'! None of you seriously buy this 'chosen race' bull****, do you? It just opens the door to racism.
I know some folks, not too far from me, who think that way. They owned several large compounds up in northern Idaho.
 

Schweddy

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The idea of the 'chosen' race only going to heaven was thrown out the window in the New Testament.
 

shake3

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I am sorry - I clicked EDIT instead of QUOTE and your post was replaced.
This was truely not intensional.

Please accept my applogies...

Vauge.
 
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Schweddy

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http://www.shepherdschapel.com/answers.htm

This is the pastor I studied under for quite awhile. His position on many things just seem to make sense to me.

The idea that I presented above is not unique.

We could go back and forth. It would be an interesting discussion, but I am not going to convince you - nor will you me. I was just expressing what I believe, not what anyone 'should' believe.

Plus, if Adam's race was indeed the chosen race, it could not have been promulgated without sex, so why would God forbid sex for Adam and Eve?
The question could apply to the apple or fruit as well. Why can't one eat it? Because God told them not to.
 

shake3

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shake3 said:
I am sorry - I clicked EDIT instead of QUOTE and your post was replaced.
This was truely not intensional.

Please accept my applogies...

Vauge.
No hard feelings. Here's that post again.
vauge said:
He told all the races to have sex - not Adam. Adam wasn't created yet in 1:28. The story is linear.
In reading the Genesis creation account we need to be careful not to take our cultural baggage with us. The key to good exegesis is to look at a passsage in light of its orginal cultural context. Genesis is a Hebrew historical narrative, whose style is not necessarily to present events in chronological order. Quoting Dr. Donald Batten, "Genesis was written like many historical accounts with an overview or summary of events leading up to the events of most interest first, followed by a detailed account which often recaps relevant events in the overview in greater detail." Genesis 2, then, could be a "detailed account" that Genesis 1, the "overview," leads up to. My point is that just because Adam isn't mentioned by name until Genesis 2, you can not automatically assume that he was a later creation after some race that was already created.
Also remember that "sin entered the world through one man [Adam], and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men" (Romans 5:12). Sin and death could not have come upon everyone "through one man" if there were other created humans at the beginning, since those humans would have been exempted from Adam's sin (they would not have been his descendants and therefore could not have inherited his sinful nature).
Plus, if Adam's race was indeed the chosen race, it could not have been promulgated without sex, so why would God forbid sex for Adam and Eve?

*I quoted Batten from http://www.answersingenesis.org/creation/v18/i4/genesis.asp
 

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shake3 said:
Genesis is a Hebrew historical narrative, whose style is not necessarily to present events in chronological order.
I would be interested in where else this style is used besides Genesis 1.
 

shake3

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vauge said:
I would be interested in where else this style is used besides Genesis 1.
I've got a full day today, between classes and studying for an exam, but just to keep the discussion alive...
Ezra is a prime example of a historical narrative going back and forward in time. The biblical scholarship journal Bibliotheca Sacra has published an quite an extensive article on this issue; you can view it at http://www.bible.org/page.asp?page_id=2569
vauge said:
shake3 said:
Plus, if Adam's race was indeed the chosen race, it could not have been promulgated without sex, so why would God forbid sex for Adam and Eve?
The question could apply to the apple or fruit as well. Why can't one eat it? Because God told them not to.
The question was not why Adam and Eve couldn't have sex; it was why would God "say so?" It would be self-contradictory for Him to forbid sex for his "chosen race" if He wanted that race to continue.
 

Schweddy

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shake3 said:
The question was not why Adam and Eve couldn't have sex; it was why would God "say so?" It would be self-contradictory for Him to forbid sex for his "chosen race" if He wanted that race to continue.
Why did God make crazy rules about eating fat from a lamb? For cleansing? That sounds rather odd - doncha think? In the traditional version, why did he tell them not to eat the fruit from that ONE tree?
Because God said so...

Perhaps God did not want them to procreate YET?

Your right, it would seem contradictory, but to me it is one of those questions that is unanswerable. The bible does not say WHY he told them not to eat of the tree - just not to.

BTW, thanks for the link above - when I get more time will check it out.
 

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While respecting (as Vauge does) everyones right to believe / or not, I find it interesting how otherwise intelligent people can debate the meanings imbedded in fairytales. It's like arguing the true meaning of Harry Potter.

The irony is, as pointed out in this thread, those who have "faith" inherently are stating they are the "chosen" righteous people (Christian, Jew, Jehovah's Witnesses, Muslim... pick your franchise) and all share an underlying arrogance as being the one who chose correctly. Interpreting "scriptures" that were clearly written hundreds of years after the supposed events, which were vigorously edited and manipulated to fit the political agendas of Rome (read about Constantine the Great), blows ones mind! Most people can't remember what they had for dinner last Thursday, yet they can believe in the credibility of these documents.

Think about this: most of the people in the world believe that "Almighty God, Allah etc" has written a book. We have a fundamental problem since many such books exist, each making an exclusive claim as to its infallibility. Not wishing to suffer the wrath of hell, and buying into the marketing plan of those in power (the priests, rabbi's - mullahs etc), people organized themselves into factions according to which of these unproveable claims they accept – rather than any other benchmark of tribalism. The individual texts direct their followers to conform with a variety of beliefs and practices, some of which are benign, many of which are not. All share a perverse agreement on one point: “respect” for other faiths, or for the views of unbelievers, is not an attitude that their God endorses. Despite outward representations of ecumenicalism, the central basis of every religion is that all the others are absolutely wrong and that being misled by them will result in eternal damnation (don't be tempted by evil!). Intolerance therefore, is at the heart of every sect. This is fundamental to becoming a true believer. Once a person believes – really believes – that certain ideas can lead to eternal happiness, or to the exact opposite (the old pleasure or pain marketing plan), they cannot tolerate being led astray by the other "team". Their absolute conviction about achieveing paradise after dying is simply incompatible with tolerance for the belief of others. Hence, the Inquisition, the Crusades, Islamic Jihad or in a less violent way, the work of missionaries trying to convert the heathen masses to their doctrine.

So argue on my friends about the meaning of myth, perhaps there are more pressing issues in the world that you currently occupy that better deserve your attention.... sorry Urethra, I have to part with another quote...

“Many have made a trade of delusions and false miracles, deceiving the stupid multitude.” Leonardo da Vinci – from the personal notebook on polemics and speculation
 

shake3

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"Otherwise intelligent" shake3 would like to ask "otherwise intelligent" vauge a few more questions.
vauge said:
His favorite man has to have a mate, so he made eve. He told them do not have sex. (tree of knowledge) Tree always represents man in the good book. Serpent - um... put 2 and 2 together.
What is your basis for inferring all this symbolism? Tree always represents man? What about Jesus' teaching likening the Kingdom of God to a mustard seed that grows into a great tree (Matt. 13:31-32)? Or what about Deut. 21:23: "Cursed is everyone who is hung on a tree"? Galatians 3:13 says outright that this tree was symbolic of Jesus' cross. The Bible does in some instances gives us clear reason to interpret things symbolically, as seen in the few passages mentioned above. But why in Genesis 3? What is your basis?
vauge said:
Eve had sex with the serpent... a big no-no... found out it was kick ass then went to Adam and gave him some. God found out when she was pregnate with twins - Cain and Able. One from Satan and one from Adam. Guess as to which is which [... later post] In my bible, I wrote that the word "again" in the Hebrew scriptures actually means "continued to". Eve continued to bare Able. Thus - twins.
What do you mean, "In my bible, I wrote..."? You created the meaning?
I do agree with Contrarian that we are all entitled to our beliefs, but we are also entitled to debate them and point out flaws. That's what the quest for truth is all about.
 
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Schweddy

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Best explained from the site that you quoted earlier:
http://www.bible.org/page.asp?page_id=36

I am somewhat of a "gap" theorist. This site does its best to discount that theory, but goes into some increadible detail as to WHY some folks believe this.

What do you mean, "In my bible, I wrote..."? You created the meaning?
Do you not write in your bible when you study?

I broke out the old Strongs Concordence, but have failed to find the details as to why this particular instance is indeed the symbol of man. I will work on it.

I do agree with Contrarian that we are all entitled to our beliefs, but we are also entitled to debate them and point out flaws. That's what the quest for truth is all about.
Absolutely!
 

shake3

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vauge said:
Best explained from the site that you quoted earlier:
http://www.bible.org/page.asp?page_id=36

I am somewhat of a "gap" theorist. This site does its best to discount that theory, but goes into some increadible detail as to WHY some folks believe this.
Sounds like an interesting article. Thanks.

vauge said:
Do you not write in your bible when you study?
Well yes, but where did you read about the possible interpretation of "again" as "continued to" (e.g. Hebrew lexicon, etc.)? When you said you wrote in your Bible about that interpretation, I took that to mean you were interpreting that particular word yourself.
 

Urethra Franklin

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Contrarian said:
sorry Urethra, I have to part with another quote...
As you preceeded it with a very intelligent and most interesting analysis of your own, you're forgiven ;)
 
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