Bush to Seek Gay-Marriage Ban in New Term

[heyjoeo]

No, it certainly isn't valid. I think it's absolutely ridiculous that you would make the jump from homosexualism to pedifilism (is that a word?).

I'd have to agree with TS212, divorce rates are through the roof. Personally, I don't see why America cares so much. Oh wait, we're all homophobic. I'll say it before and I'll say it again, CIVIL UNIONS. Let the state give them the damn recognition they want, and it will shut up those people who whine about using the word "marriage." All they want is recognition, and benefits, hell with the marriage (oh no not that word!) penalty they would pay more taxes too.

Seriously though, foreign policy and the economy are so much more important than this. I hope America will just move on to more important issues.

 

[Schweddy]

I did not say that Homosexualism LEADS to pedofilism (your right - that does look strange).
I am saying that our current climate and rapid speed of change could very well get us to that point.

I appologize if it were taken any other way.

 

[TS212]

I was refering to America's morals

Now see, again I have to ask whose morals? There are 300 million people in our nation. We don't all live by the same moral codes. How do you determine whose morals are valid and whose are not?

 

[LiberalFINGER]

How about this...
Fact: The penis and the vagina were created or evolved to procreate.
Fact: Marriage (common law, state instituted, or by religion) is by nature a forum for procreation.

I have heard this argument several times before and regardless of how much I might respect the person who says it, it's still bunk.

Using this logic, a sterile man or woman would not be allowed to enter into a marriage.

I was refering to America's morals. As it stands in the here and now, sex is ok. Homosexual acts are ok. Soon, sex with children will be ok - if we keep on this path. I am not concerened about me personally, but my children and grandchildren (hopefully).

Here's the slippery slope again.

 

[Schweddy]

Moral - definition: Of or concerned with the judgment of the goodness or badness of human action and character

It has been morally wrong for 100's of years (in our society) for 2 men to have sex, sex out of wed lock, view pornography, or take the lords name in vane(sp) - to name a few. Anyway, of recent years (within last 30) these immoral behaviors have become accepted.

Those are the American morals I am refering to.

 

[akyron]

Ok. So let us say we forget about the morality issues and the basic
biological incompatibilities.

What about the money?

Tax Benefits
Estate Planning Benefits
Government Benefits
Employment Benefits
Medical benefits
Death Benefits
Family Benefits
Housing Benefits
Consumer Benefits
Other Legal Benefits and Protections

Source: www.nolo.com if you are interested in the long list of particulars.

I do not believe it is possible I could care less what people do on their own dime but
I will vote against making me pay for it through taxes.

 

[heyjoeo]

(It's vain)
Who are you to say what is moral and not moral? I believe that is the argument of LiberalFinger. Who are you to say homosexuality leads to immoral behavior?

It is strangely absurd to suppose that a million of human beings, collected together, are not under the same moral laws which bind each of them separately.
- Thomas Jefferson

 

[akyron]

Who are you to say what is moral and not moral?


I guess the answer to that would be part of the majority.

Being right or wrong doesnt really protect you in the long run. It never has.

 

[akyron]

(It's vain)
Who are you to say what is moral and not moral?

I think the answer to that is the majority.


Being right or wrong never made anyone truly safe. It never has.

 

[argexpat]

This says it all.

 

[heyjoeo]

Hahahaha that was a great cartoon. Check the E.B. White quote in my profile, and the Jefferson quote from my last post.

 

[LiberalFINGER]

That was classic. It's not often that political cartoons make me laugh or even think for that matter.

And Vauge. . .

You mentioned money. Does that mean that if it didn't cost you anything, then you wouldn't really care?

 

[Schweddy]

And Vauge. . .

You mentioned money. Does that mean that if it didn't cost you anything, then you wouldn't really care?

I believe this is Akyron's argument and a fine one at that.

Ok. So let us say we forget about the morality issues and the basic
biological incompatibilities.

What about the money?

 

[LiberalFINGER]

I believe this is Akyron's argument and a fine one at that.

I stand corrected, but since you agree with him, my question stands.

 

[heyjoeo]

Oh boo hoo, you pay for all marriages, regardless. I don't even know your argument. You didn't give me specifics or give me reasons why it costs you money for a gay couple to get married.

 

[Schweddy]

Well, if I have to pay... then it would indeed be a good argument.

Unfortunatly, Akyron's site that was linked does not appear to have easy to access specifics - so I must recant that is it is a good argument until such claims can be proven.

This web site, does appear to have some very valuable info on rights of domestic partners. Gay or not. But, so far, I havn't found any of the specifc benifits (that we would pay) sited.

Akyron, would you elaborate and relink to specific instances?

 

[heyjoeo]

Even if it did cost taxpayer money for people to get married, the cost of homosexuals getting married also to taxpayers would be minimal. I can't imagine the numbers for marriages would go up that much and that the issue of "money" coming out of my pocket to fund gay marriages is null and void.

 

[Schweddy]

You have to look at everything, not just the yearly taxes my good man.

Insurance, cost of housing, ownership fees, private schooling (yes, there could be discounts for married couples), relestate taxes(zoning could change), family discounts... fees fees fees...they could all change or increase.

Just thinking out loud. No proof.

 

[heyjoeo]

I don't see any difference. People wouldn't bitch about it if a mass of 20,000 got married tomorrow because their "tax money" goes to it. Hetero or Homo. Using the money argument as the reason for being against Homsexual marriages doesn't make sense. Period.

 

[akyron]

Once again I think you are failing to see the bigger picture.

What happens to companies when every HIV positive patient needs only to find a partner to receive employee coverage?

Premiums go up. Premiums that many people are stressed about paying for as it is.

Cost to American businesses? Will they be able to provide health benefits?

Perhaps this might all be for the best if we can wrangle free health care for everyone out of it. I dont know any Doctors that work for free though.

 

[argexpat]

Ah yes, the old Gay-Marriage Amendment ploy. You advocate something that you know will never happen in order to rally the base and set your opponents off chasing a red herring. It’s the Flag-Burning Amendment on steroids. That the Gay-Marriage, er, “Protecting” Marriage Amendment canard shamelessly toys with our most sacred document simply to pander to Christian bigotry is despicable. It will never pass, and Republicans don’t really want it to. Why kill the goose that laid the golden egg?

Plain and simple it’s a civil liberties issue. The state should not have the right to tell me who I can and can’t marry. It’s no different legally than the state telling me I can’t marry a black woman (which it used to do). Marriage is a legal status, sanctioned by the state, bestowing on the married certain legal benefits. If there is a compelling reason why the state should discriminate against some citizens by denying them the right to marry, it should prove that, otherwise it needs to legalize it. That’s what the Massachusetts case said.

Despite the silly protestations and dire predictions of its opponents, gay marriage would merely bestow the many legal benefits to gays now only enjoyed by straight couples. This is a compelling public good, and the reason opponents don’t have a legal leg to stand on, and why they’re resorting to marring the Constitution to prevent it. If we really want to “protect” marriage, we should ban divorce and adultery. In that case half of Congress would be in jail.

Like the Flag-Burning Amendment, gay marriage will be trotted out every so often to stoke the Republican flame. But considering that most people approve of gay civil unions, this time they might get burned.

 

[Schweddy]

um.... adultry is illegal in MANY states. It is only a misdemenor however.

But considering that most people approve of gay civil unions, this time they might get burned.

Did you see the figures for the Amendment to ban gay marriages AND civil unions for Ohio? 62% CNN

I think your assumption that 'most' people approve is a little off.

 

[TS212]

Who are you to say what is moral and not moral?


I guess the answer to that would be part of the majority.

But is that any real way to gauge what is right or wrong? "The majority" once thought slavery was right. *shrug*

 

[akyron]

You contribute to these causes if you pay taxes.
You are going to pay no matter what.
It is just a matter of paying how much.
Rather than paying more I would vote against the addition of gay marriage as an accepted form of marriage.
We should all really know what is right and wrong. It is a fact of life that history is written by the victors which is basically an opportunity to present what is right and wrong.
All the debate in the world after the fact won't help whomever got stomped.

We are so lucky to be living right now in this time and location where people can dissent freely and not get shot in the head immediately or have their heads cut off and ...um nevermind.


"The strong do what they can and the weak suffer what they must."---Thucydides

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More info as requested from the legal encyclopedia http://www.nolo.com


Marriage Rights and Benefits
Learn some of the legal and practical ways that getting married changes your life.

Whether or not you favor marriage as a social institution, there's no denying that it confers many rights, protections, and benefits -- both legal and practical. Some of these vary from state to state, but the list typically includes:

Tax Benefits
Filing joint income tax returns with the IRS and state taxing authorities.
Creating a "family partnership" under federal tax laws, which allows you to divide business income among family members.
Estate Planning Benefits
Inheriting a share of your spouse's estate.
Receiving an exemption from both estate taxes and gift taxes for all property you give or leave to your spouse.
Creating life estate trusts that are restricted to married couples, including QTIP trusts, QDOT trusts, and marital deduction trusts.
Obtaining priority if a conservator needs to be appointed for your spouse -- that is, someone to make financial and/or medical decisions on your spouse’s behalf.
Government Benefits
Receiving Social Security, Medicare, and disability benefits for spouses.
Receiving veterans' and military benefits for spouses, such as those for education, medical care, or special loans.
Receiving public assistance benefits.
Employment Benefits
Obtaining insurance benefits through a spouse's employer.
Taking family leave to care for your spouse during an illness.
Receiving wages, workers' compensation, and retirement plan benefits for a deceased spouse.
Taking bereavement leave if your spouse or one of your spouse’s close relatives dies.
Medical Benefits
Visiting your spouse in a hospital intensive care unit or during restricted visiting hours in other parts of a medical facility.
Making medical decisions for your spouse if he or she becomes incapacitated and unable to express wishes for treatment.
Death Benefits
Consenting to after-death examinations and procedures.
Making burial or other final arrangements.
Family Benefits
Filing for stepparent or joint adoption.
Applying for joint foster care rights.
Receiving equitable division of property if you divorce.
Receiving spousal or child support, child custody, and visitation if you divorce.
Housing Benefits
Living in neighborhoods zoned for "families only."
Automatically renewing leases signed by your spouse.
Consumer Benefits
Receiving family rates for health, homeowners', auto, and other types of insurance.
Receiving tuition discounts and permission to use school facilities.
Other consumer discounts and incentives offered only to married couples or families.
Other Legal Benefits and Protections
Suing a third person for wrongful death of your spouse and loss of consortium (loss of intimacy).
Suing a third person for offenses that interfere with the success of your marriage, such as alienation of affection and criminal conversation (these laws are available in only a few states).
Claiming the marital communications privilege, which means a court can’t force you to disclose the contents of confidential communications between you and your spouse during your marriage.
Receiving crime victims' recovery benefits if your spouse is the victim of a crime.
Obtaining domestic violence protection orders.
Obtaining immigration and residency benefits for noncitizen spouse.
Visiting rights in jails and other places where visitors are restricted to immediate family.

 

[heyjoeo]

Wow vague, the assumption that every gay couple in America has AIDS is very ignorant. Sure they have a higher risk, but that's just naive. argxepat, you have a very valid point. I knew it was a political tool when he introduced it during his campaign. However now that he has "won" the election, he is bringing it back up again, which leads me to believe he's a bigot. Maybe that's just me, but hey what do I know?