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Bush sent 164 people to death penalty.

changintimes

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Bush sent 152 people to the death penalty in Texas, the highest number for a United States governer in recent history.

Statistically, 7% of death row prisoners are found to be innocent.

Do you think Bush may have made a mistake in deciding that all of the 152 people were guilty of the crime as charged?

Do you think Bush made a mistake about WMDs in Iraq?

I'd say yes and yes.
 
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mistermain

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changintimes said:
Bush sent 164 people to the death penalty in Texas, a record for a United States governer.

Do you think Bush may have made a mistake in deciding that all of the 164 people were guilty of the crime as charged?

Do you think Bush made a mistake about WMDs in Iraq?

I'd say yes and yes.
Bush didn't decide that they were guilty. The juries that convicted them decided that they were guilty.
 

changintimes

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mistermain said:
Bush didn't decide that they were guilty. The juries that convicted them decided that they were guilty.
that's nice, but bush, as governer, had the power to stop an execution, but he did not,
 

mistermain

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changintimes said:
that's nice, but bush, as governer, had the power to stop an execution, but he did not,
That is true. I personally do not believe in the death penalty. Bush does however, so I do not see why he would ever want to stop the sentence from being carried out.
 

Canuck

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changintimes said:
Bush sent 152 people to the death penalty in Texas, the highest number for a United States governer in recent history.

Statistically, 7% of death row prisoners are found to be innocent.

Do you think Bush may have made a mistake in deciding that all of the 152 people were guilty of the crime as charged?

Do you think Bush made a mistake about WMDs in Iraq?

I'd say yes and yes.
only 152
he sent 1000+ young innocent amereicans to their death in IRAQ
why so much apathy in america today
 

cnredd

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Canuck said:
only 152
he sent 1000+ young innocent amereicans to their death in IRAQ
why so much apathy in america today
How can you tell a whiny leftie?

When they show examples of Bush-bashing in a thread that has nothing to do with what is being discussed...:roll:
 

aps

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cnredd said:
How can you tell a whiny leftie?

When they show examples of Bush-bashing in a thread that has nothing to do with what is being discussed...:roll:
Come on, Cnredd, it does have something to do with this thread. It goes to Bush's concern about sending anyone to death. For some people, it lends credence to their assertion that Bush doesn't care about the lives of other people.

I remember reading that when Gonzales provided Bush with the summaries of those who sought a stay of execution from Bush, he (Gonzales) failed to provide Bush with evidence that supported the innocence of the prisoner. Therefore Bush only saw the evidence against the prisoner. This is not to say that Bush isn't at fault. I highly doubt that Bush really gave a $hit about the prisoner.

I think the death penalty should be eliminated. It costs taxpayers more money to have it in place than to just put someone in jail for the rest of his/her life. Trust me on this.
 

M14 Shooter

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changintimes said:
Bush sent 152 people to the death penalty in Texas, the highest number for a United States governer in recent history.
I --knew-- there was a reason I voted for him!!

Statistically, 7% of death row prisoners are found to be innocent.
This, however, does not mean that 7% of all those executed are innocent.

Do you think Bush may have made a mistake in deciding that all of the 152 people were guilty of the crime as charged?
Bush didnt decide this.
A jury did.

Do you think Bush made a mistake about WMDs in Iraq?
Not in the slightest

I'd say yes and yes.
Of course you would.
 

M14 Shooter

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changintimes said:
that's nice, but bush, as governer, had the power to stop an execution, but he did not,
That he did not stop the executions does not mean -he- decided they were guilty.

He -did- decide that the punishment fit the crime, which is, absolutely, his perrogative.
 

M14 Shooter

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aps said:
Come on, Cnredd, it does have something to do with this thread.
You're right.
Its all connected though the "I hate Bush, and I worked backwards from there" school of thought.

It goes to Bush's concern about sending anyone to death. For some people, it lends credence to their assertion that Bush doesn't care about the lives of other people.
There is absolutely NO necessary relationship between those two thoughts.


I think the death penalty should be eliminated. It costs taxpayers more money to have it in place than to just put someone in jail for the rest of his/her life. Trust me on this.
So what?
How is that a valid argument against the DP?
 

C.J.

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aps said:
It costs taxpayers more money to have it in place than to just put someone in jail for the rest of his/her life. Trust me on this.
I do not trust you on this, feel free to try and prove it.
 

M14 Shooter

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aps said:
If so - so what?

If the objective behind punishing criminals is to deter people from commiting crime, to remove criminals from sociert because they are adanger, and to give them what they 'deserve' -- how is the cost of a given punishment an argument agianst that punshment? The objective is to punish the criminal appropriately, not save money.

If a criminal -should- die for his crime, then shouldnt the costs be borne?
 

aps

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M14 Shooter said:
If so - so what?

If the objective behind punishing criminals is to deter people from commiting crime, to remove criminals from sociert because they are adanger, and to give them what they 'deserve' -- how is the cost of a given punishment an argument agianst that punshment? The objective is to punish the criminal appropriately, not save money.

If a criminal -should- die for his crime, then shouldnt the costs be borne?
I disagree. If someone is sentenced to life without the chance of parole, I think that is punishment. Personally, I would rather be executed than be in jail for the rest of my life.

I think jail should be punishment--no TV, no cigarettes, no nothing. Just sit in your cell and think about the crime you did that got you there.
 

C.J.

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aps said:
Let's just take one item of one of your sources (Feel free to choose another if you so desire), at the the first link.

I chose this one at random, but again feel free to choose another.

Kansas Study Concludes Death Penalty is Costly Policy
In its review of death penalty expenses, the State of Kansas concluded that capital cases are 70% more expensive than comparable non-death penalty cases. The study counted death penalty case costs through to execution and found that the median death penalty case costs $1.26 million. Non-death penalty cases were counted through to the end of incarceration and were found to have a median cost of $740,000. For death penalty cases, the pre-trial and trial level expenses were the most expensive part, 49% of the total cost. The costs of appeals were 29% of the total expense, and the incarceration and execution costs accounted for the remaining 22%. In comparison to non-death penalty cases, the following findings were revealed:


Notice first that LWOP was not utilized in place of the DP. "Non-death penalty cases were counted through to the end of incarceration and were found to have a median cost of $740,000." BTW they do not discuss what types of non DP cases these were do they?

Notice also that the median death penalty case costs $1.26 million. I will accept that with no argument, but will tell you it is low. The national average is approximately $1.5 million.

There is no doubt that a DP trial and appeals are more costly than a non DP trial, and this is not in dispute by me.

Here is the conflict of costs. I assume you accept the $1.26 million mentioned, as do I so we have no conflict here right?

Trial and appeals for an average LWOP trial average approximately $75,000. Sounds reasonable doesn't it? At an average of $34,400 per year to keep an inmate in an average cell this means for the amount stated ($740,000), the average inmate spent approximately 19 years and 4 months. Not exactly life without parole is it?

If the inmate were placed in a maximum security cell (Approximately $75,000 per year), his stay would be less than nine years. Again, not exactly life without parole is it?

A $34,000 yearly cost per inmate for 50 years, figuring a 2% annual cost increase amounts to over $3 million, doesn't it. Now lets put this bad guy in a max security cell for fifty years, and it works out to be between $6 and $7 million doesn't it?

This is significantly higher than the $1.26 million. Heck cut it down to a slum cell at $17,000 per year, its still over the $1.26 million.

You are welcome to pick another to discuss.
 

aps

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C.J. said:
Let's just take one item of one of your sources (Feel free to choose another if you so desire), at the the first link.

I chose this one at random, but again feel free to choose another.

Kansas Study Concludes Death Penalty is Costly Policy
In its review of death penalty expenses, the State of Kansas concluded that capital cases are 70% more expensive than comparable non-death penalty cases. The study counted death penalty case costs through to execution and found that the median death penalty case costs $1.26 million. Non-death penalty cases were counted through to the end of incarceration and were found to have a median cost of $740,000. For death penalty cases, the pre-trial and trial level expenses were the most expensive part, 49% of the total cost. The costs of appeals were 29% of the total expense, and the incarceration and execution costs accounted for the remaining 22%. In comparison to non-death penalty cases, the following findings were revealed:


Notice first that LWOP was not utilized in place of the DP. "Non-death penalty cases were counted through to the end of incarceration and were found to have a median cost of $740,000." BTW they do not discuss what types of non DP cases these were do they?

Notice also that the median death penalty case costs $1.26 million. I will accept that with no argument, but will tell you it is low. The national average is approximately $1.5 million.

There is no doubt that a DP trial and appeals are more costly than a non DP trial, and this is not in dispute by me.

Here is the conflict of costs. I assume you accept the $1.26 million mentioned, as do I so we have no conflict here right?

Trial and appeals for an average LWOP trial average approximately $75,000. Sounds reasonable doesn't it? At an average of $34,400 per year to keep an inmate in an average cell this means for the amount stated ($740,000), the average inmate spent approximately 19 years and 4 months. Not exactly life without parole is it?

If the inmate were placed in a maximum security cell (Approximately $75,000 per year), his stay would be less than nine years. Again, not exactly life without parole is it?

A $34,000 yearly cost per inmate for 50 years, figuring a 2% annual cost increase amounts to over $3 million, doesn't it. Now lets put this bad guy in a max security cell for fifty years, and it works out to be between $6 and $7 million doesn't it?

This is significantly higher than the $1.26 million. Heck cut it down to a slum cell at $17,000 per year, its still over the $1.26 million.

You are welcome to pick another to discuss.
So I am supposed to trust your facts? Well, I don't.
 

C.J.

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aps said:
So I am supposed to trust your facts? Well, I don't.
Initiative would be good, but which facts don't you trust. I only introduced two facts and then used your source.

If we must though, lets use your facts. Let's use the $740,000 from your source, give a person free trials and appeals. This would be a 50 year average of $14,800.00 per year, a 25 year average yearly cost of $29,600.

In 1990 florida cost was $25,665.98, or $70.27 per day, and this was not maximum security, nor does it consider the cost of the facility. 15 years later, I would tend to believe the cost has gone up. http://www.fcc.state.fl.us/fcc/reports/crime/crben.html

Jail bed cost

http://justiceconcepts.com/cost.htm

In GA http://www.pap.state.ga.us/costs_for_sanctions.htm

Florida http://www.dc.state.fl.us/pub/annual/9899/beds.html

CT http://www.cga.ct.gov/pri/archives/2000fireportchap5.htm

How about WA http://www.quaker.org/fcwpp/OVERVIEW.htm

An NCJRS study on privitization. http://www.ncjrs.gov/txtfiles1/bja/181249.txt

Let's see what the Senate Democrats have to say. And they are being kind. I know this article is concerning Iraq, but read the fourth paragraph about high security prisons in the U.S., and at $26,000 per year, they are being kind.http://democrats.senate.gov/~dpc/pubs/108-1-356.html

or this http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Prison_System/Justice_USA.html
 

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aps said:
I disagree. If someone is sentenced to life without the chance of parole, I think that is punishment.
Yes. It is. But its still not death.
And, I'm not exactly sure what part of my post you disagreed with.
 

M14 Shooter

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C.J. said:
Initiative would be good, but which facts don't you trust. I only introduced two facts and then used your source.

If we must though, lets use your facts. Let's use the $740,000 from your source, give a person free trials and appeals. This would be a 50 year average of $14,800.00 per year, a 25 year average yearly cost of $29,600.

In 1990 florida cost was $25,665.98, or $70.27 per day, and this was not maximum security, nor does it consider the cost of the facility. 15 years later, I would tend to believe the cost has gone up. http://www.fcc.state.fl.us/fcc/reports/crime/crben.html

Jail bed cost

http://justiceconcepts.com/cost.htm

In GA http://www.pap.state.ga.us/costs_for_sanctions.htm

Florida http://www.dc.state.fl.us/pub/annual/9899/beds.html

CT http://www.cga.ct.gov/pri/archives/2000fireportchap5.htm

How about WA http://www.quaker.org/fcwpp/OVERVIEW.htm

An NCJRS study on privitization. http://www.ncjrs.gov/txtfiles1/bja/181249.txt

Let's see what the Senate Democrats have to say. And they are being kind. I know this article is concerning Iraq, but read the fourth paragraph about high security prisons in the U.S., and at $26,000 per year, they are being kind.http://democrats.senate.gov/~dpc/pubs/108-1-356.html

or this http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Prison_System/Justice_USA.html

NO offense, but - Who cares?
That executing someome might cost more than putting them in prison for life isnt an sound argument against executing them.
 

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M14 Shooter said:
NO offense, but - Who cares?
That executing someome might cost more than putting them in prison for life isnt an sound argument against executing them.
Actually I was pointing out the opposite, that keeping them in prison likely costs much more than executing them, which coincidentally isn't a sound argument for executing someone either.
 

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C.J. said:
Actually I was pointing out the opposite, that keeping them in prison likely costs much more than executing them, which coincidentally isn't a sound argument for executing someone either.
Well, right.
In determining the 'right' and 'wrong' or even the efficacy of the DP, cost is meaningless.
 

changintimes

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m14 shooter,

you couldn't admit acting on paranioa about WMDs was a mistake, you would have to face what a completely sick and terrible, foolish mistake you and all the war supporters made,

attacking and killing so many people because of what you think might be is sick,

low lifes gathered together in high numbers in nazi germany and it happened again here,
 
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MSgt

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changintimes said:
Bush sent 152 people to the death penalty in Texas, the highest number for a United States governer in recent history.

Statistically, 7% of death row prisoners are found to be innocent.

Do you think Bush may have made a mistake in deciding that all of the 152 people were guilty of the crime as charged?

Do you think Bush made a mistake about WMDs in Iraq?

I'd say yes and yes.

The point of this thread is obvious, but why go at it this way? A Governor does not not decide guilt or innocense. "Pull the thread!"
 

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It costs more to keep an inmate alive in prison for the rest of his life then implementing the death penalty?

How do you figure? Economically, it's the other way around.
 

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it shows that bush was expedient in the matter
much like a nazi would be
 
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