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Bush Invades Privacy

SouthernDemocrat said:
What kind of country do we leave to our children if we are such cowards that we giveaway our liberty for the promise of more security?

I really just don’t think you get it. You seem to think that our founding principles, the liberty that so many have died protecting for us, is irrelevant now. The very principles that you are willing to trade for some promise of more security are the very principles that our founding fathers declared their independence from King George to grant us. No one ever said that the price of freedom would not have to be paid on our soil.

What kind of country do we leave to our children if we are such cowards that we giveaway our liberty for the promise of more security?

If the left got their way of fighting the war against terrorism as a police action and in a more sensitive way there would be no country to worry about.........
 
Navy Pride said:
Well stace l have seen men die in war and 9/11/01 scared the hell out of me.I guess your just braver then me because like I said I expected many attacks after that day....I am and old codger so I myself and not afraid of dying but I think about my family and I fear for them........I have 4 kids and several grandchildren that I want to have a long safe life.....

Maybe you don't worry about another attack and that is your choice but I am glad we have people in our government that do worry about one and protect us in spite of people that don't want that protection.........

Well, I have had friends die in this war, and could have lost my husband, my brother, or even my own life because of it. It's scary, sure, but I'm not going to live in a state of paranoia all of the time. I'd rather live my life to the fullest, whether it be only 60 more days or 60 more years.

I wouldn't say that I'm braver than anyone, I just look at the big picture. I'm glad that our government is concerned for our safety as well, seeing as how that's part of their job and all, but I will never be glad when they try to take away my rights or break the law to do it.
 
Stace said:
I will never be glad when they try to take away my rights or break the law to do it.

No one should. Its off-topic, I know, but your statement triggered something that has been on my mind lately...you know whats really bad?

> When those seeking partisan advantage, whether Repub, Dem, conservative or liberal, seek to gain partisan advantage through alarmist hyperbole and sophomoric rantings.

>When party loyalty overrides common sense and objectivity and solutions to pressing problems are solved by blindly referring to the party 'line' instead of the most effective, most 'right' solution.

> When politicians feed at the trough of lobbyists money and the power to dispense favors while spoon feeding their constituents pablum.

> When we as voters don't do our homework and question the qualifications and veracity of those who would lead us.

And worst of all? When we can't be bothered to vote. :(
 
Navy Pride said:
If the left got their way of fighting the war against terrorism as a police action and in a more sensitive way there would be no country to worry about.........
It seems that you have gone well beyond the realm of reality now. Terrorism is a threat, when you consider that a terrorist group could obtain a chemical, biological, or even a nuclear weapon, it is a great threat. However in terms of threats that this country has faced, it is nothing compared to the Cold War, Nazi Germany, the empire of Japan, the South during the Civil War, or the British during the revolutionary war and the war of 1812. In fact, it doesn’t even rank up there with The Great Depression or the Flu for that matter being that it kills some 30,000 or so annually. Well then again, terrorism doesn’t even present the level of a threat that pollution does which kills over 50,000 Americans annually.

In fact, year over year, murder is a far greater threat to the United States than terrorism being that in 2004 alone some 16,000 Americans were murdered. Using your logic, maybe we should just hand over our liberties to the federal government in order to prevent more murders. By letting the NSA monitor all of our conversations, we could probably cut that murder rate in half by locking up would be murders before they commit the crime. Hell, we are talking 8000 lives a year that would be saved. Certainly that would be worth it.:roll:

Here is a better idea though. Instead of handing over our liberties to the government in exchange for some promise of better security, why don’t we insist that our elected officials actually secure the ****ing borders?
 
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Simon W. Moon said:
If you're okay w/ a Dr giving you a rectal examine (certainly an invasion of privacy) why aren't you okay w/ your neighbor watching your sex life through the window?

I mean they're both privacy issues. Since they're both privacy issues, they must be equivalents.

Strange reasoning - the man is acting the utter fool if he cites "privacy" during the exam..

Privacy be damned - I am not a terrorist nor a lawbreaker(to the best of my knowledge)

If man were to behave himself, none of this would be necessary.

As far as the love scene watching neighbor goes, yes ! it is irritating , here I am putting on a great show and people are watching without paying...
 
Stace said:
Well, I have had friends die in this war, and could have lost my husband, my brother, or even my own life because of it. It's scary, sure, but I'm not going to live in a state of paranoia all of the time. I'd rather live my life to the fullest, whether it be only 60 more days or 60 more years.

I wouldn't say that I'm braver than anyone, I just look at the big picture. I'm glad that our government is concerned for our safety as well, seeing as how that's part of their job and all, but I will never be glad when they try to take away my rights or break the law to do it.

Like I said I don't fear for myself.I fear for my family....

I still have not been able to get and answer from all the liberals that I have been debating about this with is how they felt on 9/12/01....I know how the liberals in the Senate felt because 99 senators out of 100 voted for the Patriot Act.................Now that they have been safe for 4 years becasue of the PA they are against it..........Can you say partisan politics?
 
SouthernDemocrat said:
It seems that you have gone well beyond the realm of reality now. Terrorism is a threat, when you consider that a terrorist group could obtain a chemical, biological, or even a nuclear weapon, it is a great threat. However in terms of threats that this country has faced, it is nothing compared to the Cold War, Nazi Germany, the empire of Japan, the South during the Civil War, or the British during the revolutionary war and the war of 1812. In fact, it doesn’t even rank up there with The Great Depression or the Flu for that matter being that it kills some 30,000 or so annually. Well then again, terrorism doesn’t even present the level of a threat that pollution does which kills over 50,000 Americans annually.

In fact, year over year, murder is a far greater threat to the United States than terrorism being that in 2004 alone some 16,000 Americans were murdered. Using your logic, maybe we should just hand over our liberties to the federal government in order to prevent more murders. By letting the NSA monitor all of our conversations, we could probably cut that murder rate in half by locking up would be murders before they commit the crime. Hell, we are talking 8000 lives a year that would be saved. Certainly that would be worth it.:roll:

Here is a better idea though. Instead of handing over our liberties to the government in exchange for some promise of better security, why don’t we insist that our elected officials actually secure the ****ing borders?

How can you say I have gone beyond reality? When Kerry your candidate was running for President in 2004 he said that we needed to fight a more sensitive war against terrorism and shoule be fought as a police action........

You can't make this stuff up SD........
 
Navy Pride said:
Like I said I don't fear for myself.I fear for my family....

I still have not been able to get and answer from all the liberals that I have been debating about this with is how they felt on 9/12/01....I know how the liberals in the Senate felt because 99 senators out of 100 voted for the Patriot Act.................Now that they have been safe for 4 years becasue of the PA they are against it..........Can you say partisan politics?

How did I feel on 9/12/01? Not much different than I had felt on the 10th, the 9th, etc. Though I do remember my co workers joking that we should be given time off because Target stores were a pretty obvious target. :lol:

The government was in a panic after 9/11, that's the ONLY reason I can think of for so many of them to have signed off on the Patriot Act so hastily. Dems aren't the only ones that want to review it, ya know. It has nothing to do with partisan politics, it has to do with the fact that there are a lot of people that realize we aren't any safer now than we were before. We're not safe because of the Patriot Act....we're safe because terrorists have thousands of our troops right there in the Middle East at their disposal. They don't have to spend as much time and money killing Americans; they know that the death of even one or two of our troops will cause an uproar back home.
 
Stace said:
How did I feel on 9/12/01? Not much different than I had felt on the 10th, the 9th, etc. Though I do remember my co workers joking that we should be given time off because Target stores were a pretty obvious target. :lol:

The government was in a panic after 9/11, that's the ONLY reason I can think of for so many of them to have signed off on the Patriot Act so hastily. Dems aren't the only ones that want to review it, ya know. It has nothing to do with partisan politics, it has to do with the fact that there are a lot of people that realize we aren't any safer now than we were before. We're not safe because of the Patriot Act....we're safe because terrorists have thousands of our troops right there in the Middle East at their disposal. They don't have to spend as much time and money killing Americans; they know that the death of even one or two of our troops will cause an uproar back home.

Yeah 4 liberal republicans and all the dems want to change the PA.........

It was great to see how this country came together after 9/11......Its to bad it did not last.........
 
Originally Posted by Navy Pride
Well you did not answer my question but that is OK........I can tell you though if it saves millions of lives I am willing to give up a lot....Like I said all those so called rights that you say are being violated, and I doubt many are, don't mean squat if your dead............
I make it practice not to run from anyone or any question. Ask it again and I will answer it.
 
earthworm said:
Strange reasoning
Faulty and wrongheaded more like it. Which is exactly the point I was trying to make.

earthworm said:
As far as the love scene watching neighbor goes, yes ! it is irritating , here I am putting on a great show and people are watching without paying...
We pass the hat before hand.
 
shuamort said:
Really? I haven't heard that at all from the lefties I've talked to. Can you offer up a site?

Just read how they oppose the flat tax or national sales which would elimate this invastion of privacy and is a main attraction of both.
 
SouthernDemocrat said:
Maybe you should read that document that the radical right treats as toilet paper called the "Constitution". The sixteenth amendment deals with that Income Tax thing.

So what? How does that eliminate the violation of privacy the income system is? Do YOU support the income tax and this invasion of privacy we all are forced to give up to government or is privacy the sacrosanct right the left claims it is.

For instance the ACLU complains about plans to put cameras on public streets to watch people walking down those public streets as a violation of privacy. Have they ever spoken out against the invasion of privacy the income tax system is?
 
26 X World Champs said:
1. Collecting taxes is Constitutionally legal. Spying without a court order is not.

Yes to the first wrong on the second but SO WHAT?

Do you support the invasion of privacy that the income tax system is, it could be changed you know.

2. The IRS cannot reveal to anyone outside of the IRS your tax return information without a court order.

So what. They can also demand you lay out your entire finances without a court order. Remember we are suppose to have medical privacy, yet the government can call you into the IRS without a court order and require you to tell them what doctors you have seen, what you paid them and even what for. They can force you to disclose what charitable groups you support even political groups you support. Do you support this invasion of privacy.

3. This is a ridiculous debate as the premise seems to be to convince people that giving up your civil rights is the way to go. That, to me, is pathetic.

How do you make that stretch. I support the NST or at least the Flat Tax so that we do not have to have our privacy invaded by government, do you? Or is "privacy" a red herring arguement for the left?

The left claims we have a RIGHT to privacy, well then how come there is no outcry over the income tax and having to report some of our most private information to government without a search warrant or court order?
 
SouthernDemocrat said:
What kind of country do we leave to our children if we are such cowards that we giveaway our liberty for the promise of more security?

How about privacy? How do you feel about giving up the right to privacy?
 
Stinger said:
How about privacy? How do you feel about giving up the right to privacy?
Why're you twisted up in the "right to privacy" instead of being concerned about the Fourth Amendment?
 
Stinger said:
So what? How does that eliminate the violation of privacy the income system is? Do YOU support the income tax and this invasion of privacy we all are forced to give up to government or is privacy the sacrosanct right the left claims it is.

For instance the ACLU complains about plans to put cameras on public streets to watch people walking down those public streets as a violation of privacy. Have they ever spoken out against the invasion of privacy the income tax system is?

There is a big difference. In the case of income taxes, you submit a tax return that you sign, that you say accurately reflects your finances. If you are audited, then the IRS is simply asking you to prove what you submitted to them. Nothing is occurring behind your back and without your knowledge. A tax return is an agreement by you, to the IRS, that what you say is accurate, and that what you say can be verified.

Your comparison is apples and oranges.
 
SouthernDemocrat said:
There is a big difference. In the case of income taxes, you submit a tax return that you sign, that you say accurately reflects your finances.
So? It's an invasion of your privacy. If you don't do it the government can throw you in jail.
If you are audited, then the IRS is simply asking you to prove what you submitted to them.

So? It's an invasion of your privacy. If you don't do it the government can throw you in jail. What you submitted are private matters, private information about yourself.

Nothing is occurring behind your back and without your knowledge.

So? It's an invasion of your privacy. If you don't do it the government can throw you in jail.

A tax return is an agreement by you, to the IRS, that what you say is accurate, and that what you say can be verified.
:bsI don't agree to it I'm forced to do it and IT IS AN INVASION OF PRIVACY.

Your comparison is apples and oranges.

How so? Simly declaring it as such doesn't make so. I would say this the government requiring you to file your private and personal information with them every year is by far a more egregious violation of your privacy than putting camera's on public streets but both are the same issue, declared privacy rights.

Your attempted distinctions are specious.

Do you or do you not believe we have a right to privacy? Yes or no?

Give me an example of what you believe typifies privacy rights and explain why having to divulge your personal information on a tax form, under penalty of law if you do not comply, not a matter of violating your privacy. All without a court order or a review by a judical panel.
 
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Have you read the attempts to rationalize this that the leftest are making? It's hilarious.

Oh we agree to pay income taxes so it's not an invasion of privacy to have to lay out our private financial data and other private information to the government else face prison time.

Or else "well it's just different".
 
Stinger said:
So? It's an invasion of your privacy. If you don't do it the government can throw you in jail.


So? It's an invasion of your privacy. If you don't do it the government can throw you in jail. What you submitted are private matters, private information about yourself.



So? It's an invasion of your privacy. If you don't do it the government can throw you in jail.


:bsI don't agree to it I'm forced to do it and IT IS AN INVASION OF PRIVACY.



How so? Simly declaring it as such doesn't make so. I would say this the government requiring you to file your private and personal information with them every year is by far a more egregious violation of your privacy than putting camera's on public streets but both are the same issue, declared privacy rights.

Your attempted distinctions are specious.

Do you or do you not believe we have a right to privacy? Yes or no?

Give me an example of what you believe typifies privacy rights and explain why having to divulge your personal information on a tax form, under penalty of law if you do not comply, not a matter of violating your privacy. All without a court order or a review by a judical panel.

Because it occurs with your consent and knowledge. If you don’t want the IRS peering into your private life, then all you have to do is simply take the standard deduction and not itemize your tax return. Do that, and you don’t have to worry about the IRS verifying what you spent on medical issues or anything like that.

It’s really that simple.

When you sign a tax return, it says the following:

“Under penalties of perjury, I declare that I have examined this return and accompanying schedules and statements, and to the best of my knowledge and belief, they are true, correct, and complete. Declaration of preparer (other than taxpayer) is based on all information of which preparer has any knowledge.”

If you claim a ton of deductions and credits, and you do not properly document those deductions and credits, then it’s quite a stretch to say that it is an invasion of privacy for the IRS to ask for documented proof that you are eligible for those deductions of credits.

When I sign up for phone service though, I never sign anything that states that my personal conversations can be monitored by the government. So therefore, if the government were to listen in on my conversations without a court order, then that would be an invasion of privacy.

Now, compare this to your usage of a company phone. With most companies you sign a form upon being hired that you agree to use company phones and email for business use only. Therefore, that company does not have to have a court order to view any electric correspondence that you send to or from that company or to record any conversations that you make on their phones.
 
SouthernDemocrat said:
Because it occurs with your consent and knowledge.

It's not done with my consen, it's done under penalty of law and so what if I know about it. It's STILL and invasion of my privacy, my private information and no court order or warrant is issued.

If you don’t want the IRS peering into your private life, then all you have to do is simply take the standard deduction and not itemize your tax return. Do that, and you don’t have to worry about the IRS verifying what you spent on medical issues or anything like that.

That's not true at all. All sorts of private financial activities require me to fill out forms or private information not matter if I end up with the standard deduction or not and the State also requires the same information and more. If I buy a book out of state I have to report it to my state government with the reciept. But this starts long before then, the bank, my employer all send my private information to the government without my permission because the government requires them to.

When you sign a tax return, it says the following:

“Under penalties of perjury, I declare that I have examined this return and accompanying schedules and statements, and to the best of my knowledge and belief, they are true, correct, and complete. Declaration of preparer (other than taxpayer) is based on all information of which preparer has any knowledge.”

All very interesting but pointless. As I have already stated the government REQUIRES you to divulge this private information else go to jail.

If you claim ................

It's an invastion of privacy.

When I sign up for phone service ................

Which has nothing to do with the government requiring you to file a form with your private information on it.

Now, compare this to your usage of a company phone....................

Which has nothing to do with this government invasion of privacy.

And you dodged the question

Do you believe we have a right to privacy or not? Yes or no?
 
Stinger said:
It's not done with my consen, it's done under penalty of law and so what if I know about it. It's STILL and invasion of my privacy, my private information and no court order or warrant is issued.



That's not true at all. All sorts of private financial activities require me to fill out forms or private information not matter if I end up with the standard deduction or not and the State also requires the same information and more. If I buy a book out of state I have to report it to my state government with the reciept. But this starts long before then, the bank, my employer all send my private information to the government without my permission because the government requires them to.



All very interesting but pointless. As I have already stated the government REQUIRES you to divulge this private information else go to jail.



It's an invastion of privacy.



Which has nothing to do with the government requiring you to file a form with your private information on it.



Which has nothing to do with this government invasion of privacy.



And you dodged the question

Do you believe we have a right to privacy or not? Yes or no?

I certainly do believe that you have a right to privacy. I thought it was the right wing that did not. However, if you disagree with the IRS tactics, all you have to do is convince enough people to repeal the 16th Amendment. Moreover, you have an opportunity to get your views heard in a court of law.

This is where it differs from the government listening to your phone calls without a court order. You don't even know they are doing it, therefore, you have no way of challenging it.
 
Billo_Really said:
I make it practice not to run from anyone or any question. Ask it again and I will answer it.


I still have not been able to get and answer from all the liberals that I have been debating about this with is how they felt on 9/12/01....
 
Originally posted by Navy Pride:
I still have not been able to get and answer from all the liberals that I have been debating about this with is how they felt on 9/12/01....
What's the question?
 
Navy Pride said:
I still have not been able to get and answer from all the liberals that I have been debating about this with is how they felt on 9/12/01....

Because you are talking emotion: "how you felt", and we are talking about the principles that our nation was founded on.
 
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