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Bush Invades Privacy

Stinger

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I tried one thread with just the title Privacy thinking that since it is such an important issue to the left here they would jump right in, but no one even wanted to look. So let's try this one.

The Bush adminsistration has been engaged peeking into the lives of innocent citizens and thier private affairs from day one. I'm talking about the income tax system. Each year they require each of us, at least the vast majority who have any kind of income, to give up our privacy and tell the government how much we make, where we make it, what we spend much of it on, how much we spend on medical care and where, how much we pay for our mortagages, how much we save and on and on and on. ALL WITHOUT A COURT ORDER AND THE THREAT OF JAIL IF WE DON'T COMPLY.

If privacy is sooooooooooooo important to all the leftist here, then how can you possible support Bush doing this to us all?
 

Calm2Chaos

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Why................. You got something to hide?????????? HUH HUH ... DO YA !!!!!

Let em look... If it in some odd or small way makes me safer then take a looksee. I would rather them have the ability to look at things now and maybe head off a problem. As opposed to cleaning up a situation because the system set up was to slow to react in time to stop it.
 

Simon W. Moon

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Well the underlying premise of your debate draws a comparison between very disparate things.
The fact that you have thrown them together as if they have some sort of equivalency reveals that your assessment of the situation is beyond the reach a few short paragraphs of a post.
This is prob'ly the reason that so few people have bit. It's just a silly sounding premise for a debate.
Good luck w/ it.
 

shuamort

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Stinger said:
If privacy is sooooooooooooo important to all the leftist here, then how can you possible support Bush doing this to us all?
When have the left supported much of anything that Bush has done?
 

Stinger

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Simon W. Moon said:
Well the underlying premise of your debate draws a comparison between very disparate things.
The fact that you have thrown them together as if they have some sort of equivalency reveals that your assessment of the situation is beyond the reach a few short paragraphs of a post.
This is prob'ly the reason that so few people have bit. It's just a silly sounding premise for a debate.
Good luck w/ it.
Well your attempt to simply dismiss out of hand with just a few short paragraphs falls on it face. And again the whole issue begs the question, if privacy is so sacrosanct then how can the current system of income taxes be supported where we have to annual open up our lives to federal scrutiney, how much we make, how much we save, how much we spend on this or that and can in fact be called before a government official without a warrant and be forced to produce our most private documents.

These are not disparate issues, they are both about our basic privacy. If it is so important to some how can they approve of the income tax system?
 

Stinger

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shuamort said:
When have the left supported much of anything that Bush has done?
They certainly seem to support this invasion of privacy but complain like heck when we invade the privacy of terrorist.
 

Simon W. Moon

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If you're okay w/ a Dr giving you a rectal examine (certainly an invasion of privacy) why aren't you okay w/ your neighbor watching your sex life through the window?

I mean they're both privacy issues. Since they're both privacy issues, they must be equivalents.
 

Navy Pride

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Lets face it people when it comes to protecting this country against acts of terrorism the president is in a no win situation when it comes to our left wing friends..........

We have not had any attacks on this country in over 4 years and our liberal friends don't want to give the President any credit for that so they rant and rave about the loss of civil rights and if God forbid there was another attack on this country these same liberals would be ranting and raving that the president did not do enough to protect us against and attack..........

I say do whatever it takes to protects us against terrorist attacks and thank you for keeping us safe for the past 4 years President Bush.........
 

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Simon W. Moon, very nice. I agree with you, and excellent comparison. Gave me quite the chuckle I must admit.
 

Simon W. Moon

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The question is how important and valuable are Americans' Constitutional rights?

I mean if you find the Constitution "quaint" or "antiquainted" and think that the Fourth amendment can take a flying leap, then I can see why you wouldn't care if it were violated or not.
 

Navy Pride

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Simon W. Moon said:
The question is how important and valuable are Americans' Constitutional rights?

I mean if you find the Constitution "quaint" or "antiquainted" and think that the Fourth amendment can take a flying leap, then I can see why you wouldn't care if it were violated or not.
I guess I don't know what constitutional rights do for you if your dead from a terrorist attack that might have been avoided if the CIA was given the leeway they needed to protect us..........
 

Calm2Chaos

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Simon W. Moon said:
The question is how important and valuable are Americans' Constitutional rights?

I mean if you find the Constitution "quaint" or "antiquainted" and think that the Fourth amendment can take a flying leap, then I can see why you wouldn't care if it were violated or not.
Where in the constitution are you granted the right to privacy? How exactly does illegal search and sezure pertain to this. Yor definetly stretching the definition of search if your using it with the present situation. I don't find it unreasonable at all..... Course we could go through the standard court drama while trying to get the warrant. But after the explosion hapens are they still going to be very usefull??????????????????????????????????
 

Stinger

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Simon W. Moon said:
If you're okay w/ a Dr giving you a rectal examine (certainly an invasion of privacy) why aren't you okay w/ your neighbor watching your sex life through the window?
What does one have to do with the other?

I mean they're both privacy issues. Since they're both privacy issues, they must be equivalents.
Well actually I'n not OK with either so what is your point? But then I would point out that what goes on in my doctors office is a private mater isn't it, so private that there are federal laws protecting what goes on between me and my doctor, just as there are laws protecting my privacry from peeping toms. So yes both are matters of privacy.



So your point is going to the Doctor, of your own free will, for a rectal examine is the same as the government demanding you disclosing your financial matters to them else go to jail?

Simon I know you like to engage in these little games when you can't rebut the point. But the subject I brought up is GOVERNMENT invasion of privacy, and your right to privacy vis-a-vis the government as sancrosanct to the left. Yet our privacy is invaded on a yearly basis under the current income tax system and the left never complains about that invasion by GOVERNMENT of our privacy.

Please stay on topic and refrain from trying to divert down specious paths.
 

Stinger

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Simon W. Moon said:
The question is how important and valuable are Americans' Constitutional rights?

I mean if you find the Constitution "quaint" or "antiquainted" and think that the Fourth amendment can take a flying leap, then I can see why you wouldn't care if it were violated or not.
:rofl You try to dismiss it out of hand on the one side and then jump to the defence of it on the other. Which is it. Do YOU care if it is violated?

If privacy is such a conerstone of our constitution and our freedom then how can you support the income tax reporting we all have to do annually? I have to tell the government what charities I contribute to, what casuse, what doctor I used and can be required to tell them what procedures I had if I get audited and have to produce the reciepts.
 

Simon W. Moon

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Calm2Chaos said:
How exactly does illegal search and sezure pertain to this. Yor definetly stretching the definition of search if your using it with the present situation.
Its a "stretch" that is a matter of wide ranging precedent.
It's remarkable that you consider it a "stretch" actually.

Calm2Chaos said:
Course we could go through the standard court drama while trying to get the warrant. But after the explosion hapens are they still going to be very usefull?
FISA warrants can be obtained retroactively. That means you can go and defuse the bomb, then, afterward, apply for the warrant.
Hardly onerus.
 

Simon W. Moon

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Navy Pride said:
I guess I don't know what constitutional rights do for you if your dead from a terrorist attack that might have been avoided if the CIA was given the leeway they needed to protect us..........
When the choice is die on your feet or live on your knees, I'll take the American choice everytime.

Further, there's no indication that violating Constitutional rights increases safety. So, it's a doubly dumb deal to take.
 

SouthernDemocrat

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Navy Pride said:
Lets face it people when it comes to protecting this country against acts of terrorism the president is in a no win situation when it comes to our left wing friends..........

We have not had any attacks on this country in over 4 years and our liberal friends don't want to give the President any credit for that so they rant and rave about the loss of civil rights and if God forbid there was another attack on this country these same liberals would be ranting and raving that the president did not do enough to protect us against and attack..........

I say do whatever it takes to protects us against terrorist attacks and thank you for keeping us safe for the past 4 years President Bush.........

"He who would trade liberty for some temporary security, deserves neither liberty nor security"

-Benjamin Franklin

You let the President ignore the Constitution and the rule of law in the name of protecting your security, and you set a precedent for every president that follows. You may trust Bush, but I doubt you will trust all of them. Way too many men have died fighting to protect our freedoms and our liberty for us just to hand them over to the president in exchange for some promise of security.
 

Kushinator

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origionally posted by Navy Pride
Lets face it people when it comes to protecting this country against acts of terrorism the president is in a no win situation when it comes to our left wing friends..........

We have not had any attacks on this country in over 4 years and our liberal friends don't want to give the President any credit for that so they rant and rave about the loss of civil rights and if God forbid there was another attack on this country these same liberals would be ranting and raving that the president did not do enough to protect us against and attack..........

I say do whatever it takes to protects us against terrorist attacks and thank you for keeping us safe for the past 4 years President Bush.........
I read a quote that was someones aviatar. Maybe you should read it too!

Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.

Benjamin Franklin
 

Kushinator

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LOL, SouthernDemocrat you posted one minute before me...

Not a promise of safety, the illusion of safety. Its physically impossible unless we run this country like hitler did germany to make evey possible terrorist target safe. Its ridiculas to think you can. Therefore the illusion.

Think of the nerve of this guy. Whats next are we to have microchips planted into our brains to make sure we dont think negative thoughts against Bush's USA?
 
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shuamort

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Stinger said:
They certainly seem to support this invasion of privacy but complain like heck when we invade the privacy of terrorist.
Really? I haven't heard that at all from the lefties I've talked to. Can you offer up a site?
 

SouthernDemocrat

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Stinger said:
They certainly seem to support this invasion of privacy but complain like heck when we invade the privacy of terrorist.
Maybe you should read that document that the radical right treats as toilet paper called the "Constitution". The sixteenth amendment deals with that Income Tax thing.
 

Navy Pride

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Simon W. Moon said:
When the choice is die on your feet or live on your knees, I'll take the American choice everytime.

Further, there's no indication that violating Constitutional rights increases safety. So, it's a doubly dumb deal to take.
All I know is we have not had a terrorist attack since 2001 so someone is doing something right and if it helps to check my library records to keep me alive go for it...........
 

Navy Pride

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SouthernDemocrat said:
"He who would trade liberty for some temporary security, deserves neither liberty nor security"

-Benjamin Franklin

You let the President ignore the Constitution and the rule of law in the name of protecting your security, and you set a precedent for every president that follows. You may trust Bush, but I doubt you will trust all of them. Way too many men have died fighting to protect our freedoms and our liberty for us just to hand them over to the president in exchange for some promise of security.
Yeah I have heard that quote from BF.......When was that 1780? Don't think BF had to worry about dirty nuclear bombs killing millions of American then..do you?:roll:
 

SouthernDemocrat

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Navy Pride said:
Yeah I have heard that quote from BF.......When was that 1780? Don't think BF had to worry about dirty nuclear bombs killing millions of American then..do you?:roll:
If you are prepared to argue that the Constitution and the ideals of our Founding Fathers are irrelevant today, then you my friend are in the wrong country. They will always be relevant. They are the principles that our nation is based in. We were a new nation at the time and facing the world’s greatest super power. Yet still our Founders believed that our liberty and freedom should not be sacrificed. We will always face threats. The Constitution and our founding ideals are as relevant today as they will be 1000 years from now.

What do we fight for if we don’t fight for our land and our liberty? All of our lives will one day be merely an insignificant spec in the history of man. Our liberty however is what we will hand down to countless future generations. If we are so cowardly as to sacrifice our liberty today just on some promise of security, then we will not only give it up for ourselves, but we will also steal it from every generation who follows us.
 

Navy Pride

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SouthernDemocrat said:
If you are prepared to argue that the Constitution and the ideals of our Founding Fathers are irrelevant today, then you my friend are in the wrong country. They will always be relevant. They are the principles that our nation is based in. We were a new nation at the time and facing the world’s greatest super power. Yet still our Founders believed that our liberty and freedom should not be sacrificed. We will always face threats. The Constitution and our founding ideals are as relevant today as they will be 1000 years from now.

What do we fight for if we don’t fight for our land and our liberty? All of our lives will one day be merely an insignificant spec in the history of man. Our liberty however is what we will hand down to countless future generations. If we are so cowardly as to sacrifice our liberty today just on some promise of security, then we will not only give it up for ourselves, but we will also steal it from every generation who follows us.
The point I am trying to make to you and I guess its not getting through is when it comes to protecting this country things have changed since 1780........
 
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