Bush Approves use of Torture

[getinvolved]

First question...

Who is "they"? And what information are you talking about? Also, what grade are you in?

Two post later, following up with an extremly mature...

If you can't man-up and respond to what I said, then "talk to the hand!"

I had to take advantage of that one.

So, moving on...

The issue of torture is very difficult for me to pick sides on. I think the main point I am going to make is that I am not for or against torture. Who, out there, with a soul can say they are "for torture". I do think though that it is something that has been going on for a long time and many people have looked away in an "end is worth the means attitude".

I'm going to put it out there though, in spite of the lack of political correctness, that I think that a certain amount of force can and should be used with prisoners KNOWN to have strong ties to terrorist organizations. I don't think that people who are taken on neightborhood sweeps should be subjected to the same interrogation methods.

I think that many of the pictures that have come out are inexcusable. They are simply soldiers humiliating prisoners and are by no means tactics being used to obtain information from these prisoners. I do not support that, by ANY MEANS.

I'm torn on this issue. The more I think about it and debate it, the more torn I become. War is a tricky thing. Things happen during wars that no one wants to say they are for, b/c so much of it is so inhumane. I am all for giving our soliders the best opportuntity to win their battles and come out alive. I struggle with the decision as to where to draw the line on giving soliders the best odds.

 

[Billo_Really]

Originally Posted by getinvolved:
The issue of torture is very difficult for me to pick sides on. I think the main point I am going to make is that I am not for or against torture. Who, out there, with a soul can say they are "for torture". I do think though that it is something that has been going on for a long time and many people have looked away in an "end is worth the means attitude".

I'm going to put it out there though, in spite of the lack of political correctness, that I think that a certain amount of force can and should be used with prisoners KNOWN to have strong ties to terrorist organizations. I don't think that people who are taken on neightborhood sweeps should be subjected to the same interrogation methods.

I think that many of the pictures that have come out are inexcusable. They are simply soldiers humiliating prisoners and are by no means tactics being used to obtain information from these prisoners. I do not support that, by ANY MEANS.

I'm torn on this issue. The more I think about it and debate it, the more torn I become. War is a tricky thing. Things happen during wars that no one wants to say they are for, b/c so much of it is so inhumane. I am all for giving our soliders the best opportuntity to win their battles and come out alive. I struggle with the decision as to where to draw the line on giving soliders the best odds.

This is a good post. Although, I'm troubled by some of your comments. I do respect the fact that you have stated your point very clearly with supporting logic and personal views. If one was teaching a debate class, this is a text book rebuttal.

What I'm troubled with is that this is not black and white issue with you. We are talking about "TORTURE"! Not Alberto Gonzales torture, but John McCain torture. You have to decide for yourself. For me, its an absolute. No torture anywhere at anytime with anyone no matter what the situation is. Insurgency, terror war or homeland security. I do not believe in torturing anyone. This is not an issue over information gathering, its an issue of humanity.

 

[DeeJayH]

This is a good post. Although, I'm troubled by some of your comments. I do respect the fact that you have stated your point very clearly with supporting logic and personal views. If one was teaching a debate class, this is a text book rebuttal.

What I'm troubled with is that this is not black and white issue with you. We are talking about "TORTURE"! Not Alberto Gonzales torture, but John McCain torture. You have to decide for yourself. For me, its an absolute. No torture anywhere at anytime with anyone no matter what the situation is. Insurgency, terror war or homeland security. I do not believe in torturing anyone. This is not an issue over information gathering, its an issue of humanity.

but in my opinion, the attacks on this administration, and the military, have attacked more than what some consider torture
by not focusing just on real torture they are rallying people to the side of the military and the administration, because some of the actions being described as torture, simply are not.
thats the problem i have with it
documented torture has been investigated, people have been prosecuted as a result. and some are already doing time for it.
But by blowing every questionable incident way out of proportion, they are damaging what they are trying to do, hamstringing our military, and aiding the terrorists by giving them propaganda to recruit with

 

[Billo_Really]

Originally Posted by DeeJayH:
but in my opinion, the attacks on this administration, and the military, have attacked more than what some consider torture
by not focusing just on real torture they are rallying people to the side of the military and the administration, because some of the actions being described as torture, simply are not.
thats the problem i have with it
documented torture has been investigated, people have been prosecuted as a result. and some are already doing time for it.
But by blowing every questionable incident way out of proportion, they are damaging what they are trying to do, hamstringing our military, and aiding the terrorists by giving them propaganda to recruit with

I understand your point. You think we are feeding fuel into the insurgents fire to keep them going. While I do not agree with this, I will not argue with 100% certainty that you are wrong. I will say that it is definately not my intent to support any act of terrorism anywhere for any reason. I think the acts of insurgents are deplorable. People that cut off heads are sick. I hope they receive everything justice can throw at them.

But right now I am concentrating on my country and my laws. Some of which have re-defined what torture is. This is appauling. Because the only reason for this, is so we can torture people with immunity. I know the reasons are said to be noble ones (to get information that will save lives), but this act is just too dispicable to endorse. It is also in violation of the Geneva Conventions. I posted the Resolution back on #567 of this thread.

It is nice to see that our disagreements, while still bi-polar, are becoming more civil in this debate. Thank you for your comments.

 

[getinvolved]

This is a good post. Although, I'm troubled by some of your comments. I do respect the fact that you have stated your point very clearly with supporting logic and personal views. If one was teaching a debate class, this is a text book rebuttal.

What I'm troubled with is that this is not black and white issue with you. We are talking about "TORTURE"! Not Alberto Gonzales torture, but John McCain torture. You have to decide for yourself. For me, its an absolute. No torture anywhere at anytime with anyone no matter what the situation is. Insurgency, terror war or homeland security. I do not believe in torturing anyone. This is not an issue over information gathering, its an issue of humanity.

Okay, point taken. I'm simply left to wonder where the the line of "Torture" begins. I'm certinaly not asking whether obvious physical harm would be defined as torture, but what about mental techniques.

As said before, I understand your point that torture is wrong...anyway you frame it. But I think that we should be able to give our soliders the best chance possible -- and that requires sending them into battle with as much information as possible. So how far is too far when it comes to getting that information??

I must say, I'm highly enjoying this debate... ever since we have drug it out of the gutter...but I do need to take a closer look at the rules of the Geneva Convention and get back at this...

 

[AK_Conservative]

I want to propose a question for all you anti-"abuse" people:

The man that was arrested a week before 9/11 and had substantial connections to the monstrosity, if we used torture on him and it was able tostop 9/11 from happening (remember, this is all hypothetical), would you still say no torture?

Torture is something that works instantly, or doesnt work at all..

 

[Bleeding Heart]

I want to propose a question for all you anti-"abuse" people:

The man that was arrested a week before 9/11 and had substantial connections to the monstrosity, if we used torture on him and it was able tostop 9/11 from happening (remember, this is all hypothetical), would you still say no torture?

Torture is something that works instantly, or doesnt work at all..

Reading and comprehending the August 6th PDB would have gone a lot further towards preventing 9/11 than any torture they can cook up. There's always a better way.

 

[mixedmedia]

I want to propose a question for all you anti-"abuse" people:

The man that was arrested a week before 9/11 and had substantial connections to the monstrosity, if we used torture on him and it was able tostop 9/11 from happening (remember, this is all hypothetical), would you still say no torture?

Torture is something that works instantly, or doesnt work at all..

Well considering we didn't know 9/11 was going to happen. Yes.

I understand you are hinting at there being definitive proof that a terrorist attack is going to happen. Still, I find the question to be lacking in real world complexity. Most of the time nations do not know that attacks are being planned. Even nations that we assume do use torture. So my question would be: do you advocate torture under unknown or speculative conditions?

 

[Billo_Really]

Originally Posted by AK_Conservative:
I want to propose a question for all you anti-"abuse" people:

The man that was arrested a week before 9/11 and had substantial connections to the monstrosity, if we used torture on him and it was able tostop 9/11 from happening (remember, this is all hypothetical), would you still say no torture?

Torture is something that works instantly, or doesnt work at all..

How's this for a hypothetical. Maybe we wouldn't have ever had a 9/11 (or a '93) if we'd stop dropping so many bombs in that part of the world. If we would just take our military, and go home. If we would just stop meddling in their affairs unless officially requested by their governments.

What would it take for you to be so mad at someone, that you actually start thinking about sawing their head off! What would they have to do, to get you to this state of rage and anger. It's a little hard to fathom, isn't it. The thought of cutting someone's head off. What would it take. Hypothetically speaking.

Suppose he brutally murdered every member of your family, except you. And you found him with your friends and had him all tied up and not able to move. Now you could call the police but they will just extradite him back to his country where his government will let him go. But he just wiped out your entire blood line. What do you do? Would it take something this sick to get you to even think about it?

The point I am trying to make is that these people, sick as they may be, do not do this kind of thing (sawing heads, planes into buildings, etc) without some kind of driving force creating this level hatred. When you look at this in light of the fact that we dropped more bombs on Iraq than in all of WWII combined, you might get an idea of how they got there hatred.

We went into Iraq because sanctions were going to be lifted, Iraq was going to start selling oil again, and because of ten years of us bombing them, there was no way they were going to make any deals with us. So we made a deal they couldn't refuse.

Think about it.

 

[MSgt]

How's this for a hypothetical. Maybe we wouldn't have ever had a 9/11 (or a '93) if we'd stop dropping so many bombs in that part of the world. If we would just take our military, and go home. If we would just stop meddling in their affairs unless officially requested by their governments.

What would it take for you to be so mad at someone, that you actually start thinking about sawing their head off! What would they have to do, to get you to this state of rage and anger. It's a little hard to fathom, isn't it. The thought of cutting someone's head off. What would it take. Hypothetically speaking.

Suppose he brutally murdered every member of your family, except you. And you found him with your friends and had him all tied up and not able to move. Now you could call the police but they will just extradite him back to his country where his government will let him go. But he just wiped out your entire blood line. What do you do? Would it take something this sick to get you to even think about it?

The point I am trying to make is that these people, sick as they may be, do not do this kind of thing (sawing heads, planes into buildings, etc) without some kind of driving force creating this level hatred. When you look at this in light of the fact that we dropped more bombs on Iraq than in all of WWII combined, you might get an idea of how they got there hatred.

We went into Iraq because sanctions were going to be lifted, Iraq was going to start selling oil again, and because of ten years of us bombing them, there was no way they were going to make any deals with us. So we made a deal they couldn't refuse.

Think about it.

No, you think about it and accept reality. You know what drives them? Desperation and a will to seek answers. Answers that "Allah" provides through perverted Clerics. It's that simple. You can't understand this because you do not come from a culture that is surrounded and is driven to please God. This is a civilization that has been cast to the side as the world progressed thanks to their governments. They have no individual freedoms, no opportunity for a future and they are swimming in jealousy and blame. Our successful society is a direct threat to everything that they believe in as prescribed by the Arab's version of Islam. We prove that it is possible to succeed and to be free and at the same time believe that God can smile. They blame us, and for what? Because we do business with their governments? Did we tell these governments to oppress their people and hoard all of their countries money? Did we tell them how to govern? Did we tell them to refrain from building universities and constrict their people to the harshest passages in the Koran? The ironic thing is that they have withdrawn into their religion for answers and the further they withdraw, the more restrictions they place on themselves. You act as if we drop bombs arbitrarily wherever we please. Aside from dealing with Saddam, when have we ever dropped bombs in the Middle East? We dropped more bombs in Iraq than all of the bombs during WWII? Really? The country looked awefully ****en good for the destruction that would have caused. Get a clue. Where is our "tyranny" that you find such pleasure in blaming for the world's dilemma? Oh yeah...Abu-Ghraib. Why have people from this culture murdered so many American civilians over the decades? Oh yeah...Abu-Ghraib.

Oil..oil...oil...oil...oil...oil....this is all you have strength for? It didn't matter that he would have been free to persue what ever he wanted, which means nukes? It doesn't matter that he harbored Al-Queda all through the 90's and immediately after we invaded Afghanistan? It doesn't matter how he treated his people? It's a sad thing when Americans can only muster enough strength to condemn American action against evil. Looking the other way and pretending the world is great, like we did during the 90's, proved lethal didn't it? Where else have we done this...oh yeah...WWI and WWII.

 

[mixedmedia]

No, you think about it and accept reality. You know what drives them? Desperation and a will to seek answers. Answers that "Allah" provides through perverted Clerics. It's that simple. You can't understand this because you do not come from a culture that is surrounded and is driven to please God. This is a civilization that has been cast to the side as the world progressed thanks to their governments. They have no individual freedoms, no opportunity for a future and they are swimming in jealousy and blame. Our successful society is a direct threat to everything that they believe in as prescribed by the Arab's version of Islam. We prove that it is possible to succeed and to be free and at the same time believe that God can smile. They blame us, and for what? Because we do business with their governments? Did we tell these governments to oppress their people and hoard all of their countries money? Did we tell them how to govern? Did we tell them to refrain from building universities and constrict their people to the harshest passages in the Koran? The ironic thing is that they have withdrawn into their religion for answers and the further they withdraw, the more restrictions they place on themselves. You act as if we drop bombs arbitrarily wherever we please. Aside from dealing with Saddam, when have we ever dropped bombs in the Middle East? We dropped more bombs in Iraq than all of the bombs during WWII? Really? The country looked awefully ****en good for the destruction that would have caused. Get a clue. Where is our "tyranny" that you find such pleasure in blaming for the world's dilemma? Oh yeah...Abu-Ghraib. Why have people from this culture murdered so many American civilians over the decades? Oh yeah...Abu-Ghraib.

Oil..oil...oil...oil...oil...oil....this is all you have strength for? It didn't matter that he would have been free to persue what ever he wanted, which means nukes? It doesn't matter that he harbored Al-Queda all through the 90's and immediately after we invaded Afghanistan? It doesn't matter how he treated his people? It's a sad thing when Americans can only muster enough strength to condemn American action against evil. Looking the other way and pretending the world is great, like we did during the 90's, proved lethal didn't it? Where else have we done this...oh yeah...WWI and WWII.

I see what you are saying but your observations about Arabs are a little conveniently dramatic. The Arabs that you are talking about are of the minority in the Middle East. Arab countries don't build universities? Did you know that per capita more Palestinian children go to college than American children? There are more than 12 universities in the Palestinian territories alone. Higher education is very highly regarded in the Middle East.

Here is a link that details Middle Eastern universities:
http://menic.utexas.edu/menic/Education/Higher_Education/

This site has a lot of information on life in the middle east - culture, medicine, goverment, the media, education, business, the arts, etc. Life there is not as backwards and uncivilized as perhaps some of us would like to think. I would suggest that anyone who wants to write off the middle east as simply a bunch of America-hating fanatics ought to spend a few days perusing this site. Believe it or not, most people in the middle east are too busy living - just like us - to spend great lengths of time hating and planning the demise of America. Perhaps many of them hate us like we apparently hate France, lol, but the majority don't wish to see us dead.

 

[MSgt]

I see what you are saying but your observations about Arabs are a little conveniently dramatic. The Arabs that you are talking about are of the minority in the Middle East. Arab countries don't build universities? Did you know that per capita more Palestinian children go to college than American children? There are more than 12 universities in the Palestinian territories alone. Higher education is very highly regarded in the Middle East.

Here is a link that details Middle Eastern universities:
http://menic.utexas.edu/menic/Education/Higher_Education/

This site has a lot of information on life in the middle east - culture, medicine, goverment, the media, education, business, the arts, etc. Life there is not as backwards and uncivilized as perhaps some of us would like to think. I would suggest that anyone who wants to write off the middle east as simply a bunch of America-hating fanatics ought to spend a few days perusing this site. Believe it or not, most people in the middle east are too busy living - just like us - to spend great lengths of time hating and planning the demise of America. Perhaps many of them hate us like we apparently hate France, lol, but the majority don't wish to see us dead.

Negative. They are not like us. Nowhere near it. Where the hell do your read this garbage? Our enemy is a culture, which is deeply diseased. It's really difficult to exactly delineate who our enemies are, but they number in millions. They're Arab and Muslim, but not every Arab is among them, and most Muslims are not. The individual terrorists are mere symptoms.

The diseased culture of our enemy suffers from deep flaws which condemns them to failure in the modern world…

1) Restrictions on the free flow of information.
2) The subjugation of women.
3) Inability to accept responsibility for individual or collective failure.
4) The extended family or clan as the basic unit of social organization.
5) Domination by a restrictive religion.
6) A low valuation of education.
7) Low prestige assigned to work.

But the number one deadly and galvanizing strategic impulse in the world today is jealousy. And it's jealousy of the West in general, but specifically of the United States. Jealousy is a natural, deep human emotion, which afflicts us all in our personal lives--to some degree. But when it afflicts an entire civilization, it's tragic. The failed civilization of the Middle East--where not one of the treasured local values is functional in the globalized world--is morbidly jealous of us. They've succumbed to a culture of--and addiction to--blame. Instead of facing up to the need to change and rolling up their sleeves as the Kurds have done, they want the world to conform to their terms.

The populations of the Middle East blew it. They've failed. Thirteen hundred years of effort came down to an entire civilization that can't design and build an automobile. And thanks to the wonders of the media age, it's daily rubbed in their faces how badly they've failed.

Oil wealth? A tragedy for the Arabs, since it gave the wealth to the most backward. The Middle East still does not have a single world-class university outside of Israel. Not one. The education systems they do have are not even worth mentioning. The oil money has been thrown away--it's been a drug, not a tool.

The terrorists don't want progress. They want revenge. They don't want new glory--they want their old (largely imagined) glory back. They want to turn back the clock to an imagined world. The terrorists are the deadly siblings of Westerners who believe in Atlantis.

 

[mixedmedia]

Negative. They are not like us. Nowhere near it. Where the hell do your read this garbage? Our enemy is a culture, which is deeply diseased. It's really difficult to exactly delineate who our enemies are, but they number in millions. They're Arab and Muslim, but not every Arab is among them, and most Muslims are not. The individual terrorists are mere symptoms.

The diseased culture of our enemy suffers from deep flaws which condemns them to failure in the modern world…

1) Restrictions on the free flow of information.
2) The subjugation of women.
3) Inability to accept responsibility for individual or collective failure.
4) The extended family or clan as the basic unit of social organization.
5) Domination by a restrictive religion.
6) A low valuation of education.
7) Low prestige assigned to work.

But the number one deadly and galvanizing strategic impulse in the world today is jealousy. And it's jealousy of the West in general, but specifically of the United States. Jealousy is a natural, deep human emotion, which afflicts us all in our personal lives--to some degree. But when it afflicts an entire civilization, it's tragic. The failed civilization of the Middle East--where not one of the treasured local values is functional in the globalized world--is morbidly jealous of us. They've succumbed to a culture of--and addiction to--blame. Instead of facing up to the need to change and rolling up their sleeves as the Kurds have done, they want the world to conform to their terms.

The populations of the Middle East blew it. They've failed. Thirteen hundred years of effort came down to an entire civilization that can't design and build an automobile. And thanks to the wonders of the media age, it's daily rubbed in their faces how badly they've failed.

Oil wealth? A tragedy for the Arabs, since it gave the wealth to the most backward. The Middle East still does not have a single world-class university outside of Israel. Not one. The education systems they do have are not even worth mentioning. The oil money has been thrown away--it's been a drug, not a tool.

The terrorists don't want progress. They want revenge. They don't want new glory--they want their old (largely imagined) glory back. They want to turn back the clock to an imagined world. The terrorists are the deadly siblings of Westerners who believe in Atlantis.

Oy vey. Sorry I said anything. Forgive me if I tend to disbelieve that a million Arabs are currently plotting my demise.

If this were true, why would there even be a single US soldier alive in Iraq today? Either you exaggerate to get the yahoos all hopped up or you truly believe your own doomsday hyperbole. Either way you're peddling it to the wrong prospect right here. I'm not buying.

I get my information about the middle east and the people who live there from books by writers who have actually lived there with the people. And your information just so happens to conflict with what I have learned on a colossal scale.

 

[AK_Conservative]

Well considering we didn't know 9/11 was going to happen. Yes.

I understand you are hinting at there being definitive proof that a terrorist attack is going to happen. Still, I find the question to be lacking in real world complexity. Most of the time nations do not know that attacks are being planned. Even nations that we assume do use torture. So my question would be: do you advocate torture under unknown or speculative conditions?

Well, you went off on a rant that i had no intention of bringing! No that was not what i was saying.. i was giving a hypothetical question on torture.. Nothing about there is definative proof another attack will happen

 

[Billo_Really]

Originally Posted by GySgt:
You can't understand this because you do not come from a culture that is surrounded and is driven to please God.

I don't understand it, because I'm not a racist!

 

[mixedmedia]

Well, you went off on a rant that i had no intention of bringing! No that was not what i was saying.. i was giving a hypothetical question on torture.. Nothing about there is definative proof another attack will happen

You call that a rant? Obviously you haven't made acquaintance with many of us southern women, lol.

I only meant to explain how I feel about the use of torture in the real world rather than in a hypothetical one where waterboarding someone - who may or may not have information - is going to prevent a terrorist attack.

 

[MSgt]

Oy vey. Sorry I said anything. Forgive me if I tend to disbelieve that a million Arabs are currently plotting my demise.

If this were true, why would there even be a single US soldier alive in Iraq today? Either you exaggerate to get the yahoos all hopped up or you truly believe your own doomsday hyperbole. Either way you're peddling it to the wrong prospect right here. I'm not buying.

I get my information about the middle east and the people who live there from books by writers who have actually lived there with the people. And your information just so happens to conflict with what I have learned on a colossal scale.

Who said anything about a million Arabs plotting anything? What I talked about was their failing civilization and the result. I think you are reading the wrong books. Until 9/11, Al-Queda was just some nuisance of a gang that hated Americans. What did the military and Middle East intel specialists know..right?

 

[MSgt]

I don't understand it, because I'm not a racist!

You weak politically correct cry-baby. You don't have to be a racist to see the obvious.

 

[mixedmedia]

Who said anything about a million Arabs plotting anything? What I talked about was their failing civilization and the result. I think you are reading the wrong books. Until 9/11, Al-Queda was just some nuisance of a gang that hated Americans. What did the military and Middle East intel specialists know..right?

Well, I don't know. I surmised that from this statement.

It's really difficult to exactly delineate who our enemies are, but they number in millions.

I am not reading the wrong books. Perhaps you should read some books about Arabs coming from a different perspective. I have a copy of Bernard Lewis's book What Went Wrong? that I have been planning to read. I think that one would be right up your alley - so I will read it. I accept Bernard Lewis as someone with authority on the matter. Why don't you pick up a copy of From Beirut to Jerusalem by Tom Friedman and maybe you will be able to absorb the fact that most Muslims/Arabs are not bloodthirsty killers full of jealousy and hatred for the west. They are teachers and shopkeepers and janitors and businesspeople and doctors etc., etc. who are busy leading lives - not exactly like - but also not so very unlike most of us. And perhaps then thinking of them as expendable lives won't come to you so easy.

When I read your writing about Arabs, like the one on the Top Ten thread you just posted, I see a struggle to resist sounding racist or accusatory of all Arabs/Muslims as a whole and you succeed to some extent. But at other times you sound...well, different, to put it mildly. I think it is important, now more than ever, for us to avoid becoming xenophobic - like "our enemies" are - by concentrating so relentlessly on how people in the Middle East are different from us by remembering the many ways in which we are alike. I think a balance is the key. Otherwise we will never come through this with our honor and dignity intact.

 

[MSgt]

Well, I don't know. I surmised that from this statement.


I am not reading the wrong books. Perhaps you should read some books about Arabs coming from a different perspective. I have a copy of Bernard Lewis's book What Went Wrong? that I have been planning to read. I think that one would be right up your alley - so I will read it. I accept Bernard Lewis as someone with authority on the matter. Why don't you pick up a copy of From Beirut to Jerusalem by Tom Friedman and maybe you will be able to absorb the fact that most Muslims/Arabs are not bloodthirsty killers full of jealousy and hatred for the west. They are teachers and shopkeepers and janitors and businesspeople and doctors etc., etc. who are busy leading lives - not exactly like - but also not so very unlike most of us. And perhaps then thinking of them as expendable lives won't come to you so easy.

When I read your writing about Arabs, like the one on the Top Ten thread you just posted, I see a struggle to resist sounding racist or accusatory of all Arabs/Muslims as a whole and you succeed to some extent. But at other times you sound...well, different, to put it mildly. I think it is important, now more than ever, for us to avoid becoming xenophobic - like "our enemies" are - by concentrating so relentlessly on how people in the Middle East are different from us by remembering the many ways in which we are alike. I think a balance is the key. Otherwise we will never come through this with our honor and dignity intact.

Funny, I said nothing of what you just accused me of. I believe you have taken what I have said and pushed it where it wasn't intended. This would be a personal problem that you are having seperating yourself from "political correctness" and facing facts. The world is not a pretty place and even with Africa in existence, the Middle East is almost without hope. I have read books, but I don't fall back on them. I fall back on my experience and my decades worth of study.

There are literally millions of Muslims within the Middle East that cheer when an American is beheaded or an airplane falls from the sky. These millions do not make up the extremists, but this is where they recruit. Focusing on the problems within this culture is what needs to occur in order to fight this war on terror. Islamic extremists will continue to come out of the Middle East no mater how many we kill or arrest, because the civilization is failing.

Take Katrina, did all of those people loot because they were black or did they loot because they were poor, uneducated, desperate, and was presented with opportunity? Toss in a restrictive and oppresive religion as prescribed by the Arab elite.....welcome to the Middle East.

Do yourself a favor...study the region, not Islam...THE REGION. Not just a few individuals accounts...the REGION. Name one thing besides oil that they export. Name one front that they are competitive with in the world in the 21st Century. Until this culture is addressed and offered a hand up, they will forever breed terrorism in the name of Islam, because in times of turmoil, people always seek a higher power. In Islam, the Koran has a lot of violence to offer it's true believers. By the way, Hitler was a great guy. I know because I read a book once.

 

[mixedmedia]

Funny, I said nothing of what you just accused me of. I believe you have taken what I have said and pushed it where it wasn't intended. This would be a personal problem that you are having seperating yourself from "political correctness" and facing facts. The world is not a pretty place and even with Africa in existence, the Middle East is almost without hope. I have read books, but I don't fall back on them. I fall back on my experience and my decades worth of study.

There are literally millions of Muslims within the Middle East that cheer when an American is beheaded or an airplane falls from the sky. These millions do not make up the extremists, but this is where they recruit. Focusing on the problems within this culture is what needs to occur in order to fight this war on terror. Islamic extremists will continue to come out of the Middle East no mater how many we kill or arrest, because the civilization is failing.

Take Katrina, did all of those people loot because they were black or did they loot because they were poor, uneducated, desperate, and was presented with opportunity? Toss in a restrictive and oppresive religion as prescribed by the Arab elite.....welcome to the Middle East.

Do yourself a favor...study the region, not Islam...THE REGION. Not just a few individuals accounts...the REGION. Name one thing besides oil that they export. Name one front that they are competitive with in the world in the 21st Century. Until this culture is addressed and offered a hand up, they will forever breed terrorism in the name of Islam, because in times of turmoil, people always seek a higher power. In Islam, the Koran has a lot of violence to offer it's true believers. By the way, Hitler was a great guy. I know because I read a book once.

I don't read books about Islam. I read books about PEOPLE. I read magazines and newspapers and web sites. National Geographic, are they an unreliable source of information about culture and people? The Economist, are they an unreliable source for accurate information about the middle east? I have read books written by professors and poets in Iran. By journalists in Lebanon. By Israelis, by Palestinians, by Afghans and by Americans who have spent years of their lives writing from and living in the middle east. You obviously read only that which backs up your theories. And how convenient that what you read makes it so much easier to kill them.

The facts are - there is a SMALL minority of citizens in the middle east who morally equivocate the brutality of the terrorists. Most likely there are very many who dislike America for a variety of real and imagined offenses who DO NOT support terrorism - AS IS THEIR RIGHT - as much as some whiny, self-important Americans would like it not to be. There are many who LOVE America and want democracy and freedom and music videos - only they would prefer to not have a bomb dropped in their living room to get it. And just like in America, there are very many who don't give a damn about any of it - they have more important things to worry about - LIKE EATING. No doubt you will dispute this. Have at it. I feel confident in the reliability of my sources of information. Forgive me if I find your arguments off-balance and specious at best.

 

[MSgt]

I don't read books about Islam. I read books about PEOPLE. I read magazines and newspapers and web sites. National Geographic, are they an unreliable source of information about culture and people? The Economist, are they an unreliable source for accurate information about the middle east? I have read books written by professors and poets in Iran. By journalists in Lebanon. By Israelis, by Palestinians, by Afghans and by Americans who have spent years of their lives writing from and living in the middle east. You obviously read only that which backs up your theories. And how convenient that what you read makes it so much easier to kill them.

The facts are - there is a SMALL minority of citizens in the middle east who morally equivocate the brutality of the terrorists. Most likely there are very many who dislike America for a variety of real and imagined offenses who DO NOT support terrorism - AS IS THEIR RIGHT - as much as some whiny, self-important Americans would like it not to be. There are many who LOVE America and want democracy and freedom and music videos - only they would prefer to not have a bomb dropped in their living room to get it. And just like in America, there are very many who don't give a damn about any of it - they have more important things to worry about - LIKE EATING. No doubt you will dispute this. Have at it. I feel confident in the reliability of my sources of information. Forgive me if I find your arguments off-balance and specious at best.

This is the BS that serves no purpose. Where in the Middle East do we just drop bombs? Where do we just massacre neighborhoods and families? This kind of statement has no merit or credibility. It only offers the pascifist or anti-war buff or the global left an opportunity to wallow in an imaginated situation. When was the last time a bomb was dropped in Syria, Saudi, Iran? Were it not for our dealings with Saddam, when was the last time we dropped a bomb in Iraq? What great violence have we bestowed on these people that would make run into the realm of Islamic extremism? Like I said...study the region. I have had conversations with more peaceful people in the Middle East than I can possibly count. This does not mean that their culture and society isn't in dire straights.

Your sources tell pretty stories, they do not reflect on the oppressive misery that exists. I've seen it in Saudi and Iraq. Syria and Iran is the same. Hatred taught to the young seems a lingering cancer of the human condition. And the accusations leveled against us by terrified, embittered men fall upon the ears of those anxious for someone to blame for the ruin of their societies, for the local extermination of opportunities, and for the poverty guaranteed by the brute corruption of their compatriots and the selfish choices of their own leaders to remain in power. Make no mistake...what I say is true. Like I said...It's difficult to exactly delineate who our enemies are, but they number in millions. They're Arab and Muslim, but not every Arab is among them, and most Muslims are not. The individual terrorists are mere symptoms of a decaying society.


I asked you a question...name one thing that they import which makes them able to compete with the world? In what way has the progression of history not left them behind? In what way does the Arab's blaspemous version of Islam offer its youth opportunities for personal success and progression?

 

[Napoleon's Nightingale]

This is the BS that serves no purpose. Where in the Middle East do we just drop bombs? Where do we just massacre neighborhoods and families? This kind of statement has no merit or credibility. It only offers the pascifist or anti-war buff or the global left an opportunity to wallow in an imaginated situation. When was the last time a bomb was dropped in Syria, Saudi, Iran? Were it not for our dealings with Saddam, when was the last time we dropped a bomb in Iraq?

Thats not what he meant by that statement. He was saying that most arabs would rather work out the problem through political means instead of all out war.

What great violence have we bestowed on these people that would make run into the realm of Islamic extremism?

It's not neccessarily the violence but shooting up some of the holiest sites in Islam isn't helping. The fact that christians and jews are in the muslim holy lands is partially what incites this violence.

Like I said...study the region. I have had conversations with more peaceful people in the Middle East than I can possibly count. This does not mean that their culture and society isn't in dire straights.

It doesn't mean that it is either.

Your sources tell pretty stories, they do not reflect on the oppressive misery that exists. I've seen it in Saudi and Iraq. Syria and Iran is the same. Hatred taught to the young seems a lingering cancer of the human condition. And the accusations leveled against us by terrified, embittered men fall upon the ears of those anxious for someone to blame for the ruin of their societies, for the local extermination of opportunities, and for the poverty guaranteed by the brute corruption of their compatriots and the selfish choices of their own leaders to remain in power.

The fact that the western world has been shoving it's big nose in the affairs of the middle east for centuries has more to do with that. Their societies are not in ruins.

Make no mistake...what I say is true. Like I said...It's difficult to exactly delineate who our enemies are, but they number in millions. They're Arab and Muslim, but not every Arab is among them, and most Muslims are not. The individual terrorists are mere symptoms of a decaying society.

That isn't true at all. Judging a society's success on the their war tactics is stupid and falible. Terrorism has been a tactic of the greatest powers in world history for more than a milenium. It's not a sign or symptom of decay.

In what way does the Arab's blaspemous version of Islam offer its youth opportunities for personal success and progression?

Obviously you've never really studied the middle east. If you're going to use the argument that their culture causes them to be impotent in success and progression then you'll have to explain the hordes of wealthy buisinessmen, doctors, scientists, artists, etc.

 

[mixedmedia]

This is the BS that serves no purpose. Where in the Middle East do we just drop bombs? Where do we just massacre neighborhoods and families? This kind of statement has no merit or credibility. It only offers the pascifist or anti-war buff or the global left an opportunity to wallow in an imaginated situation. When was the last time a bomb was dropped in Syria, Saudi, Iran? Were it not for our dealings with Saddam, when was the last time we dropped a bomb in Iraq? What great violence have we bestowed on these people that would make run into the realm of Islamic extremism? Like I said...study the region. I have had conversations with more peaceful people in the Middle East than I can possibly count. This does not mean that their culture and society isn't in dire straights.

Your sources tell pretty stories, they do not reflect on the oppressive misery that exists. I've seen it in Saudi and Iraq. Syria and Iran is the same. Hatred taught to the young seems a lingering cancer of the human condition. And the accusations leveled against us by terrified, embittered men fall upon the ears of those anxious for someone to blame for the ruin of their societies, for the local extermination of opportunities, and for the poverty guaranteed by the brute corruption of their compatriots and the selfish choices of their own leaders to remain in power. Make no mistake...what I say is true. Like I said...It's difficult to exactly delineate who our enemies are, but they number in millions. They're Arab and Muslim, but not every Arab is among them, and most Muslims are not. The individual terrorists are mere symptoms of a decaying society.


I asked you a question...name one thing that they import which makes them able to compete with the world? In what way has the progression of history not left them behind? In what way does the Arab's blaspemous version of Islam offer its youth opportunities for personal success and progression?

I did not mean to imply that we have been dropping bombs on the middle east as a matter of course. I was referring to our method of "liberating" of Iraq. This may be hard to believe, but some people - even those who are hoping for the best - don't look forward to their country being invaded. Everyone knows that innocent men, women and children will die. My comment was to suggest that even Arab/Middle Eastern citizens who may welcome our efforts to liberate their country might also have mixed feelings about the price a war might cost them. Not to mention those who weren't too pleased with us in the first place.

The books I have read do not tell pretty stories. They do not tell pretty stories at all - and quite the contrary. My beef with your hypothesis is not with your assertion that there is poverty and a lack of progress and opportunity in the middle east. Not at all! These conditions are prevalent EVERYWHERE outside of the west. Name one product from the continent of Africa that is imported to the gain of average Africans.

Nor do I dispute that Islamic fundamentalism is a problem that needs to be dealt with.

What I do dispute is your consensus of public thought in the Middle East. Although as I mentioned before, I don't find your posts to always be consistent on the subject.

And I dispute the means in which we would work to solve these problems and end the conflicts that are plaguing us - both Americans and Arabs. Because regardless of who we say is to blame for the way things are right now, most of the Arabs walking around on the planet right now didn't cause it.

It is also worth noting that almost a full 50% of the Muslim population on the earth at this moment is under the age of 18. I would think it might be beneficial for us to try and make as good an impression as possible. Inflammatory talk about their culture and preemptive war on their countries might not be the most profitable way to do that.

 

[MSgt]

I did not mean to imply that we have been dropping bombs on the middle east as a matter of course. I was referring to our method of "liberating" of Iraq. This may be hard to believe, but some people - even those who are hoping for the best - don't look forward to their country being invaded. Everyone knows that innocent men, women and children will die. My comment was to suggest that even Arab/Middle Eastern citizens who may welcome our efforts to liberate their country might also have mixed feelings about the price a war might cost them. Not to mention those who weren't too pleased with us in the first place.

The books I have read do not tell pretty stories. They do not tell pretty stories at all - and quite the contrary. My beef with your hypothesis is not with your assertion that there is poverty and a lack of progress and opportunity in the middle east. Not at all! These conditions are prevalent EVERYWHERE outside of the west. Name one product from the continent of Africa that is imported to the gain of average Africans.
Nor do I dispute that Islamic fundamentalism is a problem that needs to be dealt with.

What I do dispute is your consensus of public thought in the Middle East. Although as I mentioned before, I don't find your posts to always be consistent on the subject.

And I dispute the means in which we would work to solve these problems and end the conflicts that are plaguing us - both Americans and Arabs. Because regardless of who we say is to blame for the way things are right now, most of the Arabs walking around on the planet right now didn't cause it.

It is also worth noting that almost a full 50% of the Muslim population on the earth at this moment is under the age of 18. I would think it might be beneficial for us to try and make as good an impression as possible. Inflammatory talk about their culture and preemptive war on their countries might not be the most profitable way to do that.

Are you even aware of the conditions under Saddam? The only one's not happy to see us were the one's whose party just ended.

Name one act of "Jihad" to come out of Africa onto the west?

What's not consistent? Curious you think that about me. Perhaps you are confusing my posts on dealing with Iraq, terrorists, the Middle East, and global Islam? There isn't "one" single way to deal with them, as each demands a different tactic. I am always consistent, because I believe in my experiences. Here, instead of me re-writing the same thing regarding how I believe is the proper way to deal with this, read Post 881 and 882 on this thread...If you want.

http://www.debatepolitics.com/showthread.php?t=2070