Burn in Hell Murderer - Carlie's killer gets DEATH

[disneydude]

In essence, people who rejoice in these things do the same thing as killers do. They dehumanize so it is easy to kill.

That is the best point yet. Two sentences that sum up the entire thread.

 

[disneydude]

This consequence, again, is the LEGAL death penalty...

Just because it is LEGAL does not make it moral. I am certain that you can give countless examples of things that are LEGAL that you would consider IMMORAL.
But that aside, the issue to me is not one of morality. The issue to me is that as a "Christian", I try to live my life according to the teachings of Christ. Christ taught unconditional love, Christ befriended the ill and downtrodden. Certainly there is a penalty to be paid in this life and in the after-life and although I don't personally believe in the death penalty, maybe the DP is an acceptable punishment. But what is "Unchristian" and unacceptable to my standards is the blood thirsty calls for vengence. I think it speaks to the lowest levels of animal behavior in the same way that JS was an animal in his actions.

 

[mixedmedia]

But, he isn't. That's a hypothetical question and I don't answer hypotheticals. Not because I shy away from the question, but because they're completely meaningless to the question at hand. Kind of like that reporter who asked Dukakis, a firm non-believer in the death penalty, which I respect, what would you feel if it was your family member who was raped & murdered. It's a non-sequitur question...

What if Carlie was your sister or your niece? How is that any different?

This guy ADMITTED to all of this, it isn't even one of those things where there's a chance of innocence. What would you have us do to Joseph Smith? Do what Pot Smoker says? Put him in a corner with a dunce hat and 'make him think about what he did'?

There has to be consequences to ones actions. This consequence, again, is the LEGAL death penalty...

It is not a non-sequitur. My curiosity is not with your support of the death penalty, but with the personal satisfaction you seem to take from its enforcement.

 

[Carl]

In essence, people who rejoice in these things do the same thing as killers do. They dehumanize so it is easy to kill.

My curiosity is not with your support of the death penalty, but with the personal satisfaction you seem to take from its enforcement.

What would, in your opinion, be the appropriate level of personal satisfaction?

And does it ever occur to you that the dehumanization may have been self-inflicted by the perpetrator, for having committed such inhuman deeds?

 

[reaganburch]

It is not a non-sequitur. My curiosity is not with your support of the death penalty, but with the personal satisfaction you seem to take from its enforcement.

I get ZERO satisfaction from the fact that we have to put someone to death. And, I can certainly see where, from my first post, where I come off blood-thirsty and I'm not ... most of the time... if I'm being honest here...

My main jist of the post was just like any other poster on this board, like Kid Rocks & Dana, who post breaking stories 2 & 3 times a day... although, I'm not like them on the political scale...

However, this guy, if anyone meets the criteria for having the punishment of death, does... period... As soon as he committed those acts, he ceased to have the privilege of breathing the same oxygen, you, me, disney, etc, has...

You might disagree with the death penalty Disney, but the fact that I agree with it makes me no less a Christian than anyone else on this board... so please, do not insinuate so... Regardless of whether you implied, it's inferred.. I have yet to make this personal towards anybody on this board, so don't start with me... Yes, there are legal things that I might find immoral, hence abortion... But unlike abortion, where the unborn has ZERO choice in his or her fate, this guy DID....

He CHOSE to take drugs, he CHOSE to abduct this girl, he CHOSE to rape her and he CHOSE to kill her... hence he CHOSE to deal with the consequences... My tears are for her, not for him...

 

[mixedmedia]

What would, in your opinion, be the appropriate level of personal satisfaction?

And does it ever occur to you that the dehumanization may have been self-inflicted by the perpetrator, for having committed such inhuman deeds?

No personal satisfaction. How about that?

No that doesn't occur to me. But then again, I still see him as human.

 

[Carl]

No personal satisfaction. How about that?

Well, that was my suspicion. As for me, I take a great deal of satisfaction in seeing justice done, and criminals being punished for their depradations against society.

No that doesn't occur to me.

I didn't think so. When people behave inhumanly, like rape combined with slow-strangulation of very young people, it is a natural consequence that the perpetrator's humanity becomes diminished in the perception of normal people.

So you're being more than a bit disingenuous when you suggest the dehumanization originates in those who are satsfied with the verdict.

 

[mixedmedia]

I get ZERO satisfaction from the fact that we have to put someone to death. And, I can certainly see where, from my first post, where I come off blood-thirsty and I'm not ... most of the time... if I'm being honest here...

My main jist of the post was just like any other poster on this board, like Kid Rocks & Dana, who post breaking stories 2 & 3 times a day... although, I'm not like them on the political scale...

However, this guy, if anyone meets the criteria for having the punishment of death, does... period... As soon as he committed those acts, he ceased to have the privilege of breathing the same oxygen, you, me, disney, etc, has...

You might disagree with the death penalty Disney, but the fact that I agree with it makes me no less a Christian than anyone else on this board... so please, do not insinuate so... Regardless of whether you implied, it's inferred.. I have yet to make this personal towards anybody on this board, so don't start with me... Yes, there are legal things that I might find immoral, hence abortion... But unlike abortion, where the unborn has ZERO choice in his or her fate, this guy DID....

He CHOSE to take drugs, he CHOSE to abduct this girl, he CHOSE to rape her and he CHOSE to kill her... hence he CHOSE to deal with the consequences... My tears are for her, not for him...

I appreciate that burch, sorry if I came off that way, as well. :2wave:

 

[mixedmedia]

Well, that was my suspicion. As for me, I take a great deal of satisfaction in seeing justice done, and criminals being punished for their depradations against society.



I didn't think so. When people behave inhumanly, like rape combined with slow-strangulation of very young people, it is a natural consequence that the perpetrator's humanity becomes diminished in the perception of normal people.

So you're being more than a bit disingenuous when you suggest the dehumanization originates in those who are satsfied with the verdict.

You edited my very brief statement. Why is that? Is not my point of view equally valid as your own?
Just because someone behaves inhumanly, does not mean they are not human.

 

[Carl]

You edited my very brief statement. Why is that?

Because, obviously, your personal opinion of his humanity was not the point. The point concerned whether the perpetrator had self-inflicted to any extent his own dehumanization. This is clearly illustrated by the question, to whit:

And does it ever occur to you that the dehumanization may have been self-inflicted by the perpetrator, for having committed such inhuman deeds?

No that doesn't occur to me.

As anyone can plainly see, I cited only the relevant point and answer, for the same reasons that one does not post an entire article when only a specific paragraph within is of relevance. Those interested are able to follow the link for the entire article, or in this case scroll back a post or two.

Going forward, I would appreciate it if members of the Moderator Team refrained from gratuitous insinuation as a substitute for polite conversation.

 

[mixedmedia]

Because, obviously, your personal opinion of his humanity was not the point. The point concerned whether the perpetrator had self-inflicted to any extent his own dehumanization. This is clearly illustrated by the question, to whit:



As anyone can plainly see, I cited only the relevant point and answer, for the same reasons that one does not post an entire article when only a specific paragraph within is of relevance. Those interested are able to follow the link for the entire article, or in this case scroll back a post or two.

Going forward, I would appreciate it if members of the Moderator Team refrained from gratuitous insinuation as a substitute for polite conversation.

So only your conception of how someone becomes dehumanized is relevant.

What gratuitous insinuation are you referring to? If you don't want to talk to me, then by all means, feel free to refrain from responding to my posts.

 

[Carl]

So only your conception of how someone becomes dehumanized is relevant.

No, in this case the point of the question, clearly, was the possibility of self-dehumanization. Your opinions of his actual humanity was a different point, and not the one I was addressing

What gratuitous insinuation are you referring to? If you don't want to talk to me, then by all means, feel free to refrain from responding to my posts.

The gratuitous insinuation illustrated thus:

You edited my very brief statement. Why is that? Is not my point of view equally valid as your own? Just because someone behaves inhumanly, does not mean they are not human.

So only your conception of how someone becomes dehumanized is relevant.

The insinuations, in order:

1. I edited your statement for scurrilous reasons.

2. I don't give others the respect they're due about their opinions.

3. I don't properly acknowledge the humanity of others.

4. Only my own concepts are relevant.

When in fact, none of that attended to the point at hand, which was whether you acknowledge the possibility that the inhuman acts of the perpetrator themselves contribute to his dehumanization.

From the Randomseed Rules:

9. Shift the point as often as possible. The best stance on an issue is the one which evades all counterarguments.

I think the only thing more lamentable than a Moderator employing the "shift the point" tactic with gratuitous insinuation, is then justifying such acts by saying "if you don't want to talk to me, don't answer my posts". You are supposed to be maintaining high standards, I thought.

 

[mixedmedia]

No, in this case the point of the question, clearly, was the possibility of self-dehumanization. Your opinions of his actual humanity was a different point, and not the one I was addressing



The gratuitous insinuation illustrated thus:





The insinuations, in order:

1. I edited your statement for scurrilous reasons.

2. I don't give others the respect they're due about their opinions.

3. I don't properly acknowledge the humanity of others.

4. Only my own concepts are relevant.

When in fact, none of that attended to the point at hand, which was whether you acknowledge the possibility that the inhuman acts of the perpetrator themselves contribute to his dehumanization.

From the Randomseed Rules:



I think the only thing more lamentable than a Moderator employing the "shift the point" tactic with gratuitous insinuation, is then justifying such acts by saying "if you don't want to talk to me, don't answer my posts". You are supposed to be maintaining high standards, I thought.

You are the one who responded to my argument and have attempted to railroad it to fit your own agenda. I say you dehumanize to make killing morally palatable. Don't like it? Fine. Lament away.

 

[Deegan]

I would still like you to answer the question as well Mixey.

Does this person not help "dehumanize" himself by the acts he has committed?

I certainly think he does.

 

[mixedmedia]

I would still like you to answer the question as well Mixey.

Does this person not help "dehumanize" himself by the acts he has committed?

I certainly think he does.

It depends on who you are talking about. He is not dehumanized to me so what does that say? Could it be possible that you and Carl are responsible for your own reactions to him?

 

[Deegan]

It depends on who you are talking about. He is not dehumanized to me so what does that say? Could it be possible that you and Carl are responsible for your own reactions to him?

I certainly am responsible for my reactions, and this killer, he is responsible for the acts that he committed, and the consequences he now faces. This is clear, but you still avoid the question, did his crime help in the process of those of us that now find him less then human?

 

[mixedmedia]

I certainly am responsible for my reactions, and this killer, he is responsible for the acts that he committed, and the consequenses he now faces. This is cle!r, but you still avoid the question, did his crime help in the process of those of us that now find him less then human?

I am not avoiding the question. Yes his crimes helped in the process of you having your reaction. Just as they did not affect mine. What? What is your point?

Why is that you need me to validate your point of view. I am not asking anyone to validate mine. Nor are you offering to.

 

[Deegan]

I am not avoiding the question. Yes his crimes helped in the process of you having your reaction. Just as they did not affect mine. What? What is your point?

Why is that you need me to validate your point of view. I am not asking anyone to validate mine. Nor are you offering to.

Well because we are friends, and I would not enjoy the thought of you holding a opinion of me, that I somehow take this serious issue, lightly, or enjoy watching people die needlessly. I merely asked you to consider my point of view, yours is one of life, and I respect that, I just don't agree with sparing his, not after what he has done.

 

[mixedmedia]

Well because we are friends, and I would not enjoy the thought of you holding a opinion of me, that I somehow take this serious issue, lightly, or enjoy watching people die needlessly. I merely asked you to consider my point of view, yours is one of life, and I respect that, I just don't agree with sparing his, not after what he has done.

Deegan, that was never the question. I already apologized to reaganburch and let me apologize to you, too. I'm sorry. I don't mean to infer that you enjoy seeing someone die. It's only that, and I think this is true, it is not uncommon for those who support the death penalty to treat it lightly and say things off the cuff that seem flippant. I do not support the death penalty. I believe that taking a life is wrong and I am consistent in that belief. And, as such, I wish, at the very least, that those who support it would not treat it so lightly. I think it is a careless, thoughtless tendency that strikes me pretty deeply.

But anyways, Deegan. No hard feelings, eh?

 

[Deegan]

Deegan, that was never the question. I already apologized to reaganburch and let me apologize to you, too. I'm sorry. I don't mean to infer that you enjoy seeing someone die. It's only that, and I think this is true, it is not uncommon for those who support the death penalty to treat it lightly and say things off the cuff that seem flippant. I do not support the death penalty. I believe that taking a life is wrong and I am consistent in that belief. And, as such, I wish, at the very least, that those who support it would not treat it so lightly. I think it is a careless, thoughtless tendency that strikes me pretty deeply.

But anyways, Deegan. No hard feelings, eh?

No need to apologize to me, I just wanted us to be clear about each others stance on this very serious issue. I certainly respect your view on the death penalty, I just can't agree with it, and wanted to be clear as to how I came to hold my opinion. I agree, it's not helpful for those of us who agree with the D.P, to appear "flippant" or even delighted at the thought of someone being executed! It is a very serious, and fragile line we walk, when we decide who lives, and who dies, and it should always be treated as such, that is clearly not demonstrated here today, not to my satisfaction anyway.

So no, hard feelings are not held.

 

[reaganburch]

No need to apologize to me, I just wanted us to be clear about each others stance on this very serious issue. I certainly respect your view on the death penalty, I just can't agree with it, and wanted to be clear as to how I came to hold my opinion. I agree, it's not helpful for those of us who agree with the D.P, to appear "flippant" or even delighted at the thought of someone being executed! It is a very serious, and fragile line we walk, when we decide who lives, and who dies, and it should always be treated as such, that is clearly not demonstrated here today, not to my satisfaction anyway.

So no, hard feelings are not held.

What he said MixedMedia... No need to apologize to me...

I just enjoy a healthy debate that doesn't turn into some vitriolic flame war...

 

[disneydude]

You might disagree with the death penalty Disney, but the fact that I agree with it makes me no less a Christian than anyone else on this board... so please, do not insinuate so... Regardless of whether you implied, it's inferred.. I have yet to make this personal towards anybody on this board, so don't start with me...

Hey RB:

I appreciated the thoughts that you expressed in this post (even though I didn't post the whole thing). It was well thought out and you raised some very good points, so I give you your Kudos.

Just a reply to the part I pasted. I apologize if I inferred that people who agree with the Death Penalty are not "Christian", although I do believe that there are some potential conflicts between the two that was certainly not meant to be the cruxt of my argument. My particular beef with the posters on this thread were the ones that seem to relish and actually enjoy talking about having the opportunity to kill another human being. The blood thirsty thoughts expressed (although they have every right to express them) are so far from Christ teachings and knowing full well that many of these posters claim to be "Christian" (from other postings) my argument was simply that if you are living a "Christ-like" life you would not celebrate execution and say things like "Burn in hell".
It reminds me of that Rev. Phelps who leads that right-wing "Christian" group that carry signs like "Mathew Shephard burn in hell", "God hates fags" "God hates New Orleans" etc. You cannot claim to be Christian and express THOSE types of things.

 

[Navy Pride]

Hey RB:

I appreciated the thoughts that you expressed in this post (even though I didn't post the whole thing). It was well thought out and you raised some very good points, so I give you your Kudos.

Just a reply to the part I pasted. I apologize if I inferred that people who agree with the Death Penalty are not "Christian", although I do believe that there are some potential conflicts between the two that was certainly not meant to be the cruxt of my argument. My particular beef with the posters on this thread were the ones that seem to relish and actually enjoy talking about having the opportunity to kill another human being. The blood thirsty thoughts expressed (although they have every right to express them) are so far from Christ teachings and knowing full well that many of these posters claim to be "Christian" (from other postings) my argument was simply that if you are living a "Christ-like" life you would not celebrate execution and say things like "Burn in hell".
It reminds me of that Rev. Phelps who leads that right-wing "Christian" group that carry signs like "Mathew Shephard burn in hell", "God hates fags" "God hates New Orleans" etc. You cannot claim to be Christian and express THOSE types of things.

You never did answer my question.........Are you pro choice? You have compassion for a murderer of children.How do you feel about murder in the womb?

 

[reaganburch]

Hey RB:

I appreciated the thoughts that you expressed in this post (even though I didn't post the whole thing). It was well thought out and you raised some very good points, so I give you your Kudos.

Just a reply to the part I pasted. I apologize if I inferred that people who agree with the Death Penalty are not "Christian", although I do believe that there are some potential conflicts between the two that was certainly not meant to be the cruxt of my argument. My particular beef with the posters on this thread were the ones that seem to relish and actually enjoy talking about having the opportunity to kill another human being. The blood thirsty thoughts expressed (although they have every right to express them) are so far from Christ teachings and knowing full well that many of these posters claim to be "Christian" (from other postings) my argument was simply that if you are living a "Christ-like" life you would not celebrate execution and say things like "Burn in hell".
It reminds me of that Rev. Phelps who leads that right-wing "Christian" group that carry signs like "Mathew Shephard burn in hell", "God hates fags" "God hates New Orleans" etc. You cannot claim to be Christian and express THOSE types of things.

I appreciate the sentiments DD. All Christians(count me in there), strive to live a life closer to God and as you know, all of us fail from time to time. All of us give in to temptation, whether it be emotional thoughts or whatever else too numerous to mention that would be categorized as sin.

I was certainly guilty of blood-thirsty & glib posts in this thread, I was overcome by emotion for a demon whom I feel doesn't deserve to breathe the same oxygen that you & I do... again, my opinion. You're anti death penalty? Fine, I respect your opinion... wrong as it may be... just kidding... let's put a little humor in here...

Sin, in and of itself, does not make you, me or anyone else less Christian. At least that's MY opinion... you might have a different opinion and I respect that... I'm just not going to throw stones at someone's Christian-like behavior when I'm full of sin everyday and every night I pray to God to help me live a better life...

As for Rev. Phelps, I think he's a nut-job and nowhere near representative of my right-wing Christian Values... in which I think Christian values or not Right-wing nor Left-wing... they are Human-wing...

 

[disneydude]

^NAVY - I did answer your question see #36.......
And further navy, unless I am mistaken, I don't think I ever expressed compassion for the killer of children. I have no compassion. I believe that there is punishment that is appropriate in this life and in the after-life.
Just because I do not believe in the death penalty does not mean that I believe that this man is worthy of compassion. Maybe thats a concept that is difficult to understand and you may not agree, but even as Christ was dying on the cross he asked for forgiveness for those who murdered him. If only we as human beings had the same incredible compassion and ability to forgive, the world would be such a better place.
^RB
Again, I appreciate the things that you expressed in your last post here.
See....even though we may be at opposite ends of the political spectrum there are some basic human things that we can agree on (I feel all warm and fuzzy)......
I agree with you. I am by no means perfect, far from it. I have committed numerous sins throughout my life and currently. But I do try to live my life in such a way that I do some good for my fellow mankind, be it donations, public service, etc. That does not make me perfect, but hopefully it does lead me that much closer to living a "Christ-like" life.