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Burger King dumps Indonesian palm oil company

bowerbird

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I am hoping this is just not another "greenwashing" stunt by a company that wants to look more "environmentally friendly"

I suspect however it is motivated less by the environment and more from concern about the possible lawsuits from using highly saturated fats in cooking

US fast food giant Burger King said it would no longer buy palm oil from Sinar Mas or its subsidiaries after Greenpeace campaigned against the Indonesian group's land-clearing practices.

Burger King joins the likes of Unilever, Nestle and Kraft in shunning Sinar Mas in a move that will increase pressure on other corporate buyers of its palm oil products, such as Pizza Hut, KFC, and Dunkin' Donuts.

Indonesia is the biggest producer of palm oil which is used in everything from biscuits to cosmetics, but environmentalists say plantations are driving deforestation blamed for habitat loss and greenhouse gases.

Burger King dumps Indonesian palm oil company - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation)
 

UtahBill

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spud_meister

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How will this affect the Indonesian economy?

That's the bitch about situations like this, you keep buying the oil, people who may otherwise be unemployed have a job, but it is destroying massives amount of habitat for animals, and sending some of them towards extinction. The ideal situation would be to find them a more environmentally friendly job to make up for it.
 

Deuce

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That's the bitch about situations like this, you keep buying the oil, people who may otherwise be unemployed have a job, but it is destroying massives amount of habitat for animals, and sending some of them towards extinction. The ideal situation would be to find them a more environmentally friendly job to make up for it.

Yeah. It sucks, but seriously, not all jobs are worth keeping in their current forms. Whalers were probably pissed when that whole "crude oil" thing came about, but whalers losing their jobs isn't good enough reason to keep using whale oil.
 

UtahBill

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That's the bitch about situations like this, you keep buying the oil, people who may otherwise be unemployed have a job, but it is destroying massives amount of habitat for animals, and sending some of them towards extinction. The ideal situation would be to find them a more environmentally friendly job to make up for it.
I suppose they could grow opium.....takes up a lot less land for the same revenue as palm oil, and the ROI is wonderful....
OR, we could find better uses for the oil than cooking our french fries...
Maybe that oil would be better used as a diesel fuel altelrnative....
 

Deuce

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I suppose they could grow opium.....takes up a lot less land for the same revenue as palm oil, and the ROI is wonderful....
OR, we could find better uses for the oil than cooking our french fries...
Maybe that oil would be better used as a diesel fuel altelrnative....

Running a diesel engine tractor to grow plants that convert back into a diesel-type fuel doesn't really work out well. Like any other physical process, you lose energy in the conversion. You'd expend 1.5 gallons of fuel for every gallon you produce.

(which makes the existence of corn-ethanol fuel particularly irritating. it only works out because we subsidize corn so much)
 
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spud_meister

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I suppose they could grow opium.....takes up a lot less land for the same revenue as palm oil, and the ROI is wonderful....
OR, we could find better uses for the oil than cooking our french fries...
Maybe that oil would be better used as a diesel fuel altelrnative....

The opium thing is a good idea, currently, the only place where they are legally farmed is in Tasmania, and more farms would lower the cost of opiate based drugs.
 

Renae

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Yeah. It sucks, but seriously, not all jobs are worth keeping in their current forms. Whalers were probably pissed when that whole "crude oil" thing came about, but whalers losing their jobs isn't good enough reason to keep using whale oil.

Are you kidding? Anti-whaling laws were the WORST thing to happen to wales. We assed ourselves out of all sorts of great products from food oils to medicinal items by banning whaling. Hopefully we'll wise up and support sustainable whale farming.
 

spud_meister

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Are you kidding? Anti-whaling laws were the WORST thing to happen to wales. We assed ourselves out of all sorts of great products from food oils to medicinal items by banning whaling. Hopefully we'll wise up and support sustainable whale farming.

How do you farm animals that migrate across half the world?
 

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The opium thing is a good idea, currently, the only place where they are legally farmed is in Tasmania, and more farms would lower the cost of opiate based drugs.
So, after pssin off the Indonesians by refusing to buy their palm oil, we pssoff Tasmania by competing in their market....
Now we got 2 more countries mad at us....:2razz:
 

spud_meister

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So, after pssin off the Indonesians by refusing to buy their palm oil, we pssoff Tasmania by competing in their market....
Now we got 2 more countries mad at us....:2razz:

'cept Tasmania is a state. :lol:
 

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Running a diesel engine tractor to grow plants that convert back into a diesel-type fuel doesn't really work out well. Like any other physical process, you lose energy in the conversion. You'd expend 1.5 gallons of fuel for every gallon you produce.

(which makes the existence of corn-ethanol fuel particularly irritating. it only works out because we subsidize corn so much)

Source on 1.5 gallons of fuel to 1.0 gallons of diesel alternative?

Corn ethanol, I agree. Palm oil just has to be refined a bit.
 

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How do you farm animals that migrate across half the world?

IF there is a financial gain from it, man will find a way. I have much faith in the ingenuity of the capitalist to find a way. Tagging Wales, much like branding them, have a ship ride shotgun with the herd... there are WAYS to organize and promote the profitable raising and slaughtering of Whales that will ensure they are sustained.
 

spud_meister

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If we cut Tasmania, does not Australia bleed?

No, Tasmania is like Australia's genital wart, it's annoying, and we really wouldn't miss it. :mrgreen:

But if the cleared area in Indonesia was used to farm opium poppies, theoretically no more land would need to be cleared, and that takes care of the environmental factors.
 

spud_meister

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IF there is a financial gain from it, man will find a way. I have much faith in the ingenuity of the capitalist to find a way. Tagging Wales, much like branding them, have a ship ride shotgun with the herd... there are WAYS to organize and promote the profitable raising and slaughtering of Whales that will ensure they are sustained.

I have no problem with the theory, but I am unsure about how it would be achieved, you'd probably have to monitor the groups closely, and take only the older animals that no longer breed, and only at a rate that sustains the groups numbers.
 

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No, Tasmania is like Australia's genital wart, it's annoying, and we really wouldn't miss it. :mrgreen:

But if the cleared area in Indonesia was used to farm opium poppies, theoretically no more land would need to be cleared, and that takes care of the environmental factors.

yeah, we have several states like that, California, Texas, most of the northeast, and the District of Columbia, of course...
 

winston53660

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yeah, we have several states like that, California, Texas, most of the northeast, and the District of Columbia, of course...

Utah well it ain't even worth the fly over. Arizona sheeesh it looks like the dark side of the moon on a bad day:2razz:
 

UtahBill

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Utah well it ain't even worth the fly over. Arizona sheeesh it looks like the dark side of the moon on a bad day:2razz:
You are just being silly. Utah has lots of scenery, and more natl. parks than any other state. It is most definitely worth a fly over. But not a drive through. From the road, it is pretty monotonous. Not as bad as Texas, tho.
Arizona may be the dark side, but California is the dork side.:2razz:
 

Deuce

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Source on 1.5 gallons of fuel to 1.0 gallons of diesel alternative?

Corn ethanol, I agree. Palm oil just has to be refined a bit.

They all have to be refined.

The 1.5 gallon number was just an example. Corn ethanol uses more energy to produce than you can extract from the final product. It seems I actually underestimated the difference.

Ethanol
Adding up the energy costs of corn production and its conversion into ethanol, 131,000 BTUs are needed to make one gallon of ethanol. One gallon of ethanol has an energy value of only 77,000 BTUS. Thus, 70 percent more energy is required to produce ethanol than the energy that actually is in it. Every time you make one gallon of ethanol, there is a net energy loss of 54,000 BTUs.

And this isn't even accounting for the fact that you'll never actually extract 100% of the energy from the ethanol. Internal combustion engines are closer to 20-30% efficient.

I suspect palm oil has the same issue. Physics just doesn't work that way. You can make a useful product from waste oil, but growing the plants for the sole purpose of turning them back into fuel is silly.
 
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UtahBill

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They all have to be refined.

The 1.5 gallon number was just an example. Corn ethanol uses more energy to produce than you can extract from the final product. It seems I actually underestimated the difference.

Ethanol


And this isn't even accounting for the fact that you'll never actually extract 100% of the energy from the ethanol. Internal combustion engines are closer to 20-30% efficient.

I suspect palm oil has the same issue. Physics just doesn't work that way. You can make a useful product from waste oil, but growing the plants for the sole purpose of turning them back into fuel is silly.

Corn ethanol, yes, but palm oil is different. And the OP is about palm oil...
 

Deuce

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Corn ethanol, yes, but palm oil is different. And the OP is about palm oil...

Hey, you asked for the numbers and I gave them to you.
 

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Hey, you asked for the numbers and I gave them to you.
I am more than familiar with ethanol costing more than it returns in energy, but it is an octane booster for gasoline, so we should keep using it, but only as an octane booster.
AGAIN, I asked about palm oil, not ethanol. I took chemistry in HS, Navy Nuke school, and in college night classes. There is a considerable difference between ethanol, and palm oil....
 

Deuce

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I am more than familiar with ethanol costing more than it returns in energy, but it is an octane booster for gasoline, so we should keep using it, but only as an octane booster.
AGAIN, I asked about palm oil, not ethanol. I took chemistry in HS, Navy Nuke school, and in college night classes. There is a considerable difference between ethanol, and palm oil....

So you tell me. Is palm oil conversion to biodiesel energy positive?
 
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