• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

Bubble trouble?

PeteEU said:
That is because Microsoft went from a text based system to a graphical system with backward compatibility. Apple said screw it and started over and continued from there.

Not sure what your exact point is here. Apple implemented a graphical user interface early on, adopting many of the features pioneered at PARC. Moreover, it took many, many iterations over quite a few years of Windows before Microsoft was finally relatively free of backward compatibility, integration and "blue screen of death" issues.

Now having said that, there is no doubt that Windows offers a wider choice of business applications and available programs.

PeteEU said:
after Windows XP that "catch up" was over and since Windows 7, Microsoft has gone way past Apple on all fronts.

I suppose that is the reason why so many users refused to upgrade from XP to Vista and 7? It took so long and so many revisions to get XP performing as it should, they refused to abandon their rather large investment in XP. When I last looked, Windows XP was still the largest installed base, though shrinking of late (but haven't looked in a couple of months).

Your link to the Computer World article re:security of Apple vs Windows also had this qualification:

If you consider only the critical and high operating system disclosures, Microsoft dwarfed all the other players with 73 percent.

We appear to agree on the important overall points about Apple's marketing muscle and prowess, as witnessed by the Jobs mystique. And in the value to Apple of the integration of iPod, iPhones etc to the complementary and enabling services.

In fact, in the interest of full disclosure, I will tell you that I am, and have been for several weeks now, long Apple puts. At the same time, I am long calls and/or bullish call spreads a couple of the suppliers of components to the iPhone and iPad (e.g. CRUS). So I am talking my position here just a bit.
 
Last edited:
Just a small fact

Apple profit since 1982 to 2009 = 21.175 billion.

Exxon profit alone in 2009 = 19.280 billion.

Apple is set to pass Exxon in market cap very soon at the present rate of stock price growth...

Now tell me seriously how Apple is more worth than an oil company that in one year (a bad year for it) has almost more profit than Apple has had in its entire history COMBINED.
 
Not sure what your exact point is here. Apple implemented a graphical user interface early on, adopting many of the features pioneered at PARC. Moreover, it took many, many iterations over quite a few years of Windows before Microsoft was finally relatively free of backward compatibility, integration and "blue screen of death" issues.

Now having said that, there is no doubt that Windows offers a wider choice of business applications and available programs.

My point is that because Apple started with next to no users and companies providing programs, it was easier for it to start "over" and implement a graphical interface. Microsoft on the other hand had to build backwards compatibility for several generations for all their OS's. Not exactly as easy as just starting over.

I suppose that is the reason why so many users refused to upgrade from XP to Vista and 7? It took so long and so many revisions to get XP performing as it should, they refused to abandon their rather large investment in XP. When I last looked, Windows XP was still the largest installed base, though shrinking of late (but haven't looked in a couple of months).

Many did not upgrade from XP to Vista because of Vista. However Windows 7 has out sold Win XP on almost every level since its launch and more and more are switching over.

OS market share

Windows 7 has not been out for a full year yet and has at least 17% of the market and rising. Considering Microsoft has already stopped its support on Vista (no SP) and XP (SP2 and under), the transition for companies will be happening as soon as the recession is over I bet.
 
Windows 7 has not been out for a full year yet and has at least 17% of the market and rising. Considering Microsoft has already stopped its support on Vista (no SP) and XP (SP2 and under), the transition for companies will be happening as soon as the recession is over I bet.

OS will continue to provide Microsoft with strong revenue flow. However, OS, alone, won't provide the kind of growth that leads to higher stock valuations driven by expectations of growth, e.g., PE ratios. Moreover, OS face a growing competitive threat from subsitutes, namely tablets which could, over time, evolve into a disruptive innovation. Already, rising competition from tablets has led Goldman Sachs to downgrade Microsoft to "neutral."

From Reuters:

Goldman Sachs lowered its rating on Microsoft Corp's (MSFT.O) stock to "neutral" on concerns of a longer PC refresh cycle and the newer threat from tablets, where Windows does not yet have a presence.

The brokerage said revenue momentum and investor sentiment on the company's core Windows and Office franchises is not likely to improve until it gains a firmer foothold in the smartphones and tablets space.


Currently, Apple is among the well-positioned companies in the rapidly growing tablets sector. Microsoft is not out of the race, but it has some work to do to become a major player in that sector.
 
OS will continue to provide Microsoft with strong revenue flow. However, OS, alone, won't provide the kind of growth that leads to higher stock valuations driven by expectations of growth, e.g., PE ratios. Moreover, OS face a growing competitive threat from subsitutes, namely tablets which could, over time, evolve into a disruptive innovation. Already, rising competition from tablets has led Goldman Sachs to downgrade Microsoft to "neutral."

From Reuters:

Goldman Sachs lowered its rating on Microsoft Corp's (MSFT.O) stock to "neutral" on concerns of a longer PC refresh cycle and the newer threat from tablets, where Windows does not yet have a presence.

The brokerage said revenue momentum and investor sentiment on the company's core Windows and Office franchises is not likely to improve until it gains a firmer foothold in the smartphones and tablets space.


Currently, Apple is among the well-positioned companies in the rapidly growing tablets sector. Microsoft is not out of the race, but it has some work to do to become a major player in that sector.

Yes, but Apple more worth than Exxon that makes 15+ billion dollars a year in raw profit easily?

As for Apple and the "pad" market.. the same was said of Apple and the smart phone market, and look where that has gone... not Apple's way by any means. The "pad" market is still small and the amount of different "pad" versions coming out by competitor is huge, and all of them pretty much are better than the IPad.

Apple has 5% of the world market in PCs, and it is not increasing much. It has 0% of servers, and has a falling market share of the world smart-phone market. It is dominant on the Ipod/music player market, but considering that online music sales have started to flatten out (so far) then one has to question how much that is worth. And then there is the Pad market.. still very new and if it goes like the smart phone market, then apple will loose out there too. So why is Apple's valuation more than Exxon? It makes no sense what so ever unless it is full of hype and frankly a bubble.
 
Yes, but Apple more worth than Exxon that makes 15+ billion dollars a year in raw profit easily?

As for Apple and the "pad" market.. the same was said of Apple and the smart phone market, and look where that has gone... not Apple's way by any means. The "pad" market is still small and the amount of different "pad" versions coming out by competitor is huge, and all of them pretty much are better than the IPad.

Apple has 5% of the world market in PCs, and it is not increasing much. It has 0% of servers, and has a falling market share of the world smart-phone market. It is dominant on the Ipod/music player market, but considering that online music sales have started to flatten out (so far) then one has to question how much that is worth. And then there is the Pad market.. still very new and if it goes like the smart phone market, then apple will loose out there too. So why is Apple's valuation more than Exxon? It makes no sense what so ever unless it is full of hype and frankly a bubble.

Does this mean that you are short apple and long Exxon? If not why the rant.
 
Yes, but Apple more worth than Exxon that makes 15+ billion dollars a year in raw profit easily?

At present, no. However, psychology plays an important role. There is typically a future orientation to stock prices, namely they reflect expectations about the future. Of course, such expectations could be wrong. Markets are human institutions and just as humans lack prescience, so do markets. Far from the claims some have made in the past--tempered greatly by the recent financial and economic turmoil--markets are imperfect "discounting mechanisms."

Under a scenario that the tablet market could ultimately be huge (some questions do exist, so that shouldn't be taken as a "slam dunk" assumption) and oil is a finite resource (requiring ExxonMobil and other participants to evolve to overcome that challenge), markets could well be expecting better long-term growth prospects for tablets and related/spin-off devices/services that could emerge as that young sector grows. Regulatory risk in the wake of the financial crisis/recession and BP oil leak could also be casting somewhat of a cloud on oil industry prospects.

Apple's valuations are almost certainly being driven by its recent innovation and empirical research indicates that people typically view the future pretty much as they view the very recent past-present. Moreover, so long as Steve Jobs is associated with the company, it will likely retain strong credibility on the innovation front. Hence, it currently enjoys fairly lofty expectations for growth. A slowdown in its pace of innovation or departure of Steve Jobs would likely have a significant adverse impact on those expectations.

As for Apple and the "pad" market.. the same was said of Apple and the smart phone market, and look where that has gone... not Apple's way by any means. The "pad" market is still small and the amount of different "pad" versions coming out by competitor is huge, and all of them pretty much are better than the IPad.

I don't disagree that Apple faces some strong, even intense competition. Market domination is far from assured for any player. In fact, my guess is that the market will stabilize with 3-5 major players. Apple will probably be one of them. Google might, too. Microsoft, though, has an opportunity, but it is not assured of becoming one of the top 3-5 firms in that area.

Apple has 5% of the world market in PCs, and it is not increasing much. It has 0% of servers...

With respect to PCs, Apple offers a not so pleasant case example of an early entrant that was unsuccessful in leveraging its early lead to lock up a sustained long-term advantage in that market. With the Ipod, it has done so by locking up relationships. I suspect that it is doing the same with respect to tablets and will enjoy a large, though not dominant, market share for some time to come. Even as that market share erodes over time due to increasing competition, sufficient industry growth could still translate into higher revenues and higher net income for Apple from tablets. The challenges would arise once the tablet industry is maturing.

With respect to PCs and also servers, those are largely commodity businesses, even if their major players try to argue (in vain) otherwise. Cost (per computing power or storage space) is becoming the prime dimension on which competition is based. Services built around servers are less of a commodity. Not surprisingly, Cisco markets itself as providing "technology services" rather than servers (its router sales revenue is already falling). Also, Cisco has been making some strategic acquisitions to diversify its business in the face of industry consolidation. That Apple has only a small foothold in PCs and no presence in manufacturing and selling servers is not really a problem for the company.

In fact, over the past 5 years, Apple has experienced more vigorous growth than Cisco (sales rising from $13.9B to $42.9B vs. Cisco's $28.4B to $40.0B; net income rising from $1.3B to $8.2B vs. Cisco's $5.6B to $7.8B)

...and has a falling market share of the world smart-phone market.

But that market is growing sufficiently fast that even a smaller market share is still translating into higher revenue from that market. There's also the applications dimension. Apple currently provides more than 900 applications and some 25 million apps have been downloaded to date. Those apps provide another income stream and, arguably, it is the apps that demonstrate greater creativity than the smart phones themselves and imitation is more difficult. If, in fact, that proves correct over time, apps will provide higher profit margins than smart phones.

Of course, Apple is not without its weaknesses or competitive threats. Mr. Jobs health is one such possible risk. Risks to intellectual property e.g., due to digital content theft, is another.

So why is Apple's valuation more than Exxon? It makes no sense what so ever unless it is full of hype and frankly a bubble.

As noted at the beginning, there might be some plausible reasons (Maybe ExxonMobil is undervalued instead? Maybe its growth prospects down the road appear relatively unattractive? Maybe regulatory/environmental issues i.e., pollution, accidents, climate change, etc. pose substantial challenges to its growth? Maybe downstream developments e.g., greater energy efficiency poses a risk?). It should be noted that there is empirical evidence that companies in the early stages of their life cycle or those whose operations are disproportionately based in industries at such a stage (Apple), enjoy premiums that are sometimes overoptimistic. Forecasting growth is not a precise or easy effort. Huge errors can be made. Ultimately, not all of the companies that command abnormal valuations wind up having their stock soar to bubble-like proportions. Some simply witness the onset of an extended period of below industry average stock price appreciation afterward until stock prices are more in line with fundamental valuations/growth prospects.

Could Apple's stock reach prices that might constitute a bubble (an unsustainable situation during which the bubble would ultimately burst sending shares markedly lower)? Perhaps. I'm just not sure that Apple's share price is there yet. Apple's price might well be somewhat elevated, but not every case in which a stock's price is elevated actually constitutes a bubble. In fact, most don't. If Apple were trading around or above $400 per share right now, I'd be more worried that it was in a bubble situation or approaching such a situation, especially if its stock price was generally accelerating to the upside and becoming increasingly decoupled from underlying fundamentals/growth prospects of the industries in which Apple does business. Something in the $275-$325 range, especially if the next earnings report shows more robust growth, may well represent a fairly reasonable valuation.
 
Today, Apple's stock reached $300 per share for the first time. From CNBC today:

Apple shares topped $300 for the first time on Wednesday as stellar iPad sales and a planned expansion into China continued to give investors high hopes for the iPhone maker's already healthy prospects...

Morgan Keegan analyst Tavis McCourt said the recent $400 million acquisition of app developer ngmoco by Japan's DeNA is also a huge plus for Apple. Ngmoco is known for the games it makes for the iPhone, though it also plans to release apps for Android devices soon. Even so, McCourt said the pricey acquisition means even more app developers will flock to Apple's devices, where they have the best chance to make the most money.


From a strategic standpoint, the second paragraph in the excerpts quoted from the CNBC story is more interesting. Other rivals can expand into China, as well, though Google's frayed relationship with the Chinese Government could impede that company's progress for a time. The latter development concerning the possibility of an increasing number of applications developers flocking to Apple's devices highlights the possibility of a synergistic self-reinforcing relationship that could allow Apple to sustain a competitive advantage in those devices. More developers mean more applications. More applications mean greater demand for Apple's devices. Greater demand for Apple's devices mean even more developers. Should such a self-reinforcing cycle set in, Apple could expect to enjoy above industry growth and above industry profits for a sustained period of time in that sector. Such a development would constitute yet another fundamental underpinning for Apple's medium term prospects. That is not a bubble situation. A bubble situation concerns irrational valuations (valuations that are increasingly decoupled from underlying fundamentals).
 
So the question is why does the market think that Apple is valued more than PetroChina (briefly so far)? Can we say big bubble?

9 dollars/share x 211m shares = about 2 billion dollars
13 dollars/share x 900m shares = a lot more.

P/E of 22 on a fast expanding innovative STABLE tech company is NOT a bubble. I COULD argue that a PE of 13 on an oil company MAY be a bit over bought... However I think oil will be in higher demand so the PE is probably on the low side as expected earnings will grow as the price of oil increases.
 
Disagree to a modest degree. Apple has been quite innovative in several respects:

You forgot wifi, bluetooth, usb, firewire, mouse... All apple inventions or ideas to put them on the laptop/desktop.

FYI I am not a apple user.
 
Wow I never thought there would be a topic I agreed with PeteEU on. But I think he is right. I don't think that Apple can sustain this growth and the stock is way over valued. However, I do own Apple stock (Bought it when it was about half as much) so I say let the good times roll.
 
Apple has good marketing, creativity, and it creates products that are sleek, multi-functional, and easy to use. The products may be self-contained and sort of foolproof as tools, but that is precisely why they have gained popularity. And whether or not detractors want to admit it, the ipod was revolutionary in the mp3 player world. I think it was the ipod that started it all.

Apple should get out of the computer business and into the gadgets business.
 
Wow I never thought there would be a topic I agreed with PeteEU on. But I think he is right. I don't think that Apple can sustain this growth and the stock is way over valued. However, I do own Apple stock (Bought it when it was about half as much) so I say let the good times roll.

Buy an out of the money options put on the stock. Pick a price around the mid point of your purchase price and current trading price. Buy an option for jan 2012. If you're right, about it topping, then you didn't lose any or much money. If you're wrong and the stock continues to grow, then you probably won't lose any money either...
 
Back
Top Bottom