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British Study Says Premature Babies Feel Pain

FISHX said:
It's not a question of faith, it's a question of science. Belief is not a necessity.

Of course, we can just say since there are conflicting scientific reports on the subject that the jury is out right now instead of saying one way is correct.
 
star2589 said:
I will correct someone who makes a false claim about when a fetus can feel pain.
jimmyjack said:
But we have just established that they do.
star2589 said:
only the ones that are viable.
jimmyjack said:
They are still foetuses.
star2589 said:
yes. but that does not mean that all fetuses can feel pain. if someone makes that claim, I will correct them.
jimmyjack said:
Who has made this claim?
star2589 said:
well, on this post {{Msg #62}} you quoted a a website that said that fetuses can feel pain from 9 weeks. 9 weeks marks the beginning of the fetal period.
jimmyjack said:
At nine weeks, the unborn baby is able to feel pain. {{snip}} By the time the baby is eleven weeks old, he or she breaths (fluid), swallows, digests, sleeps, dreams, wakes, tastes, hears, and feels pain
this was from the "scientific view" part of the post.
jimmyjack said:
I see, you are correcting the scientists?
star2589 said:
no scientist or peer reviewed journal was cited for making that statement in the article.
jimmyjack said:
People that analyse brains from a prestigious university surely warrant the description of “scientists”.
star2589 said:
star2589 said:
most abortions are performed long before viability. the ability to feel pain and viability come in at around the same time.
the ability to feel pain at viability, does not contradict the fact that a 9 week old fetus cannot feel pain.
jimmyjack said:
Why did you bother commenting?
The point is that jimmyjack has outsmarted himself --an all-too-easy thing for him to do! It is the scientists quoted in Msg #1, by jimmyjack, who, by saying that fetuses feel pain at viability, are contradicting the "scientists" quoted by jimmyjack in the other Message Thread (#62), who say that fetuses feel pain at nine weeks!!! The correct scientists are those who link pain to viability; the other "pain" is not "felt" because at nine weeks no nervous-system signals can reach the brain --it is not connected until about the 26th week, which also is approximately the age of earliest independent viability.
 
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FutureIncoming said:
The correct scientists are those who link pain to viability

By what authority do you appoint yourself above the scientists?
 
jimmyjack said:
By what authority do you appoint yourself above the scientists?

its not a matter of appointing himself above scientists. its a matter of putting peer reviewed research above something published elsewhere. something that all good scientists do.
 
star2589 said:
its not a matter of appointing himself above scientists. its a matter of putting peer reviewed research above something published elsewhere. something that all good scientists do.

Yeah, location is always so important.
 
jimmyjack said:
By what authority do you appoint yourself above the scientists?
Even scientists can (and sometimes do) make statements as stupid as those that you frequently make. Here's a famous one:
Albert Einstein said:
“God does not play dice."
This wasn't obviously stupid at the time, and still isn't obviously stupid today, but it is demonstrably and measurably true that Total Randomness is at the bottom of Physics, and that therefore God (claimed to be the inventor of Physics) likes playing dice a whole lot.

So, if some scientist claims that the Earth is flat, by what authority can I appoint myself above that scientist, eh? In the case of fetal pain, consider a simple thought-experiment. Imagine being surprised by a pin that pricks your finger. The nerve at that pin-prick sends a pain signal. Some of this signal can be processed in the spinal cord (part of the "autonomic system"), which causes a jerk-reponse to get your finger away from that pin. This can take place regardless of whether or not the nerve signal continues to the brain, where you actually "feel" the pain signal. I'm sure some quadraplegics who sufferered neck/spinal injuries feel no slightest pain when stuck with pins --but their bodies might "autonomically" jerk, anyway. Which one counts? If you focus on feeling pain, then a requirement for that is that the pain signal must reach the brain. Simple facts and simple logic. The scientist talking about pain at nine weeks is only talking about pain that cannot be felt, and which therefore is not relevant to a discussion about pain that can be felt (possible after brain connects to spinal cord at start of third trimester).
 
don't know if it's on topic but... consider this, the brain itself doesn't feel pain. the scalp and the skull do yes, but not the brain.
 
Future In Coming

The scientist talking about pain at nine weeks is only talking about pain that cannot be felt,


Could you explain this how can you have a pain that cannot be felt?

If it could,t be felt then it wouldn,t be pain.
 
Re: Future In Coming

FISHX said:
The scientist talking about pain at nine weeks is only talking about pain that cannot be felt,


Could you explain this how can you have a pain that cannot be felt?

If it could,t be felt then it wouldn,t be pain.


alright.... say you have one paralyed foot. you manage to cut your ankle and it's bleeding. Your intelligence says, it must hurt because it's damaged. But you don't feel anything. that's what can be scary.
 
jimmyjack said:
Yeah, location is always so important.

its not the physical location that matters, its the scientific scrutiny that all peer reviewed articles go through that matters.
 
Re: Future In Coming

Aurora151989 said:
alright.... say you have one paralyed foot. you manage to cut your ankle and it's bleeding. Your intelligence says, it must hurt because it's damaged. But you don't feel anything. that's what can be scary.

Scary yes painful no as i said for you to have pain you have to feel pain
 
Re: Future In Coming

now we must distinguish the meaning of pain from the meaning of hurt.

hurt: damage to part of the body
pain: owie owie
 
Something like that yes hurt is something you do pain is something you feel
 
FISHX said:
Something like that yes hurt is something you do pain is something you feel

alright now we are agreed, back to your original thread.

you can harm premature babies anytime. however if they cry as a result of a needle stick, they felt pain
 
FutureIncoming said:
Even scientists can (and sometimes do) make statements as stupid as those that you frequently make. Here's a famous one.......


That does not excuse your ill thought-out statements.
 
who wants to harm premature babies? thats sick and yes if a baby cry,s as the result of a needle then obviously it felt the pain of the jab.
 
jimmyjack said:
That does not excuse your ill thought-out statements.
Your mere claim that statements, plural, are ill thought-out is meaningless without multiple examples and supporting data/logic. Thus, since the quoted statement above has neither, it is meaningless and ill thought-out.
 
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FutureIncoming said:
Your mere claim that statements, plural, are ill thought-out is meaningless without multiple examples and supporting data/logic. Thus, since the quoted statement above has neither, it is meaningless and ill thought-out.

You tried to justify a lousy comment by claiming great scientists make lousy comments too, and I have pointed out your excuse is a weak justification, there is no need for stats or references to prove that.
 
FutureIncoming said:
The correct scientists are those who link pain to viability
jimmyjack said:
By what authority do you appoint yourself above the scientists?
FutureIncoming said:
Even scientists can (and sometimes do) make statements as stupid as those that you frequently make.
jimmyjack said:
That does not excuse your ill thought-out statements.
FutureIncoming said:
Your mere claim that statements, plural, are ill thought-out is meaningless without multiple examples and supporting data/logic. Thus, since the quoted statement above has neither, it is meaningless and ill thought-out.
jimmyjack said:
You tried to justify a lousy comment by claiming great scientists make lousy comments too, and I have pointed out your excuse is a weak justification, there is no need for stats or references to prove that.
AHA! So the preceding sequence of above posts exists entirely because you thought that the thing in #28 was "a lousy comment". Note that your claim is entirely unsupported by evidence, while what I wrote in #28 was a simple agreement with scientists, not an "appoint myself above scientists":
FutureIncoming said:
It is the scientists quoted in Msg #1, by jimmyjack, who, by saying that fetuses feel pain at viability, are contradicting the "scientists" quoted by jimmyjack in the other Message Thread (#62), who say that fetuses feel pain at nine weeks!!!
and my agreement, as worded in the first Quote of this Message, was supported by this information that followed:
FutureIncoming said:
the other "pain" is not "felt" because at nine weeks no nervous-system signals can reach the brain -- it is not connected until about the 26th week, which also is approximately the age of earliest independent viability.
FutureIncoming said:
In the case of fetal pain, consider a simple thought-experiment. Imagine being surprised by a pin that pricks your finger. The nerve at that pin-prick sends a pain signal. Some of this signal can be processed in the spinal cord (part of the "autonomic system"), which causes a jerk-reponse to get your finger away from that pin. This can take place regardless of whether or not the nerve signal continues to the brain, where you actually "feel" the pain signal. I'm sure some quadraplegics who sufferered neck/spinal injuries feel no slightest pain when stuck with pins --but their bodies might "autonomically" jerk, anyway. Which one counts? If you focus on feeling pain, then a requirement for that is that the pain signal must reach the brain. Simple facts and simple logic. The scientist talking about pain at nine weeks is only talking about pain that cannot be felt, and which therefore is not relevant to a discussion about pain that can be felt (possible after brain connects to spinal cord at start of third trimester).
In other words, you are still blathering, not debating.
 
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Yet another reason why the time limit on abortion needs to be reduced. 24 weeks.... it's appalling.
 
FutureIncoming said:
AHA! So the preceding sequence of above posts exists entirely because you thought that the thing in #28 was "a lousy comment". Note that your claim is entirely unsupported by evidence, while what I wrote in #28 was a simple agreement with scientists, not an "appoint myself above scientists":

and my agreement, as worded in the first Quote of this Message, was supported by this information that followed:


In other words, you are still blathering, not debating.

Meaningless without multiple examples and supporting data/logic.
 
Yet once again half a story jimmyjack starts an idiotic thread in which he posts a link to a totally irrelevant article.

This research has had major implications for paediatricians and neonantal nurses, because of the potential pain they may have unwittingly been putting prems through while undergoing certain procedures which we know to be painful and would provide sufficient analgesia for in older children and adults.

The reference is to neonates as young as 28 weeks gestation. The legal limit for abortion in he UK, the country this reserach originates from, is 24 weeks. For fear of miscalculation, virtually no doctor will perform an abortion after 20 weeks, and as the world over, the majority of abortions are performed before 12 weeks gestation. We are comparing apples and oranges here.

But then, anybody expecting jimmyjack to put forward a relevant point will find themselves waiting an incredibly long time.
 
Urethra Franklin said:
Yet once again half a story jimmyjack starts an idiotic thread in which he posts a link to a totally irrelevant article.

This research has had major implications for paediatricians and neonantal nurses, because of the potential pain they may have unwittingly been putting prems through while undergoing certain procedures which we know to be painful and would provide sufficient analgesia for in older children and adults.

The reference is to neonates as young as 28 weeks gestation. The legal limit for abortion in he UK, the country this reserach originates from, is 24 weeks. For fear of miscalculation, virtually no doctor will perform an abortion after 20 weeks, and as the world over, the majority of abortions are performed before 12 weeks gestation. We are comparing apples and oranges here.

But then, anybody expecting jimmyjack to put forward a relevant point will find themselves waiting an incredibly long time.


It quite clearly states foetuses feel pain, which is relevant to the abortion debate.

Try again.
 
jimmyjack said:
It quite clearly states foetuses feel pain, which is relevant to the abortion debate.

Try again.

There are many stages of foetal development.
Try again.
 
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