British government to legislate for same-sex marriage

[Arcana XV]

The reaction all depends on which Middle eastern tribal God you're talking about, I guess. One of them gets a free pass for the same things ctiticized in the other, and for attitudes much greater in magnitude.

Digsbe is a Christian. Which god do you suppose we might be talking about here?

Oddly, enough, nobody here seems to notice the irony involved in the Conservative party being the only one taking up the liberal cause, while the leftist parties are so worried they might alienate the extremely conservative part of their base that they are frozen in apoplexy.

Your first mistake is to assume that conservative = socially conservative.

 

[PeteEU]

The reaction all depends on which Middle eastern tribal God you're talking about, I guess. One of them gets a free pass for the same things ctiticized in the other, and for attitudes much greater in magnitude.

No it depends on the bias of the persons involved.

Oddly, enough, nobody here seems to notice the irony involved in the Conservative party being the only one taking up the liberal cause, while the leftist parties are so worried they might alienate the extremely conservative part of their base that they are frozen in apoplexy.

Not really any irony here at all. For one the British Conservatives have never really be overly religious unlike their American counterparts, so hence the idea of a mainstream "social conservative" in the UK is limited to the 60+ year olds and members of the BNP. In fact the British Conservatives have for the most part always fought for the rights of minorities (of course when it suited them, but that is like all politicians). It was them that freed the slaves, and so on and so on, and unlike their American counterparts, they have not been stuck in the 1700s when it comes to social aspects of society. The UK Conservative Party has evolved.. slowly, but it has evolved.

 

[Deuce]

Did you read the OP link?

" ... During the election campaign, the Conservatives were the only main party to suggest that they would consider allowing full homosexual marriage. ... "

Conservatives in the UK would be labeled socialists by US conservatives.
Also social conservatism is not always hand in hand with political conservatism.

 

[Laila]

Yet again we have another government trying to legalize gay marriage without looking to the voters... I hope this fails. Homosexual unions are not marriage.

I don't think British voters really care either way whether this passes.

Gay marriage. Much ado about nothing

 

[Red_Dave]

Oddly, enough, nobody here seems to notice the irony involved in the Conservative party being the only one taking up the liberal cause, while the leftist parties are so worried they might alienate the extremely conservative part of their base that they are frozen in apoplexy.

I doubt 2% of the population constitutes a significant part of their base. If it did then Labour would not have gone into/stayed in Iraq and supported Israel while it was in power.

 

[alexa]

I doubt 2% of the population constitutes a significant part of their base. If it did then Labour would not have gone into/stayed in Iraq and supported Israel while it was in power.

Would something like this not be a vote of conscience rather than a party vote?

 

[Gardener]

Your first mistake is to assume that conservative = socially conservative.

If it is a mistake to know what political terms actually mean, then I am guilty as charged.

For your edification, however, I would point out that the "conserve" referenced by the word conservative relates to the inclination to conserve social institutions. The mistake is not mine here, since your ignorance of both the etymology and meaning of the word is manifest in this all too typically Eurocentric attitude that insists it means whatever you say it means, and that meaning is defined, not by an actual political philosophy, but merely by those who call themselves such.

 

[Arcana XV]

If it is a mistake to know what political terms actually mean, then I am guilty as charged.

For your edification, however, I would point out that the "conserve" referenced by the word conservative relates to the inclination to conserve social institutions. The mistake is not mine here, since your ignorance of both the etymology and meaning of the word is manifest in this all too typically Eurocentric attitude that insists it means whatever you say it means, and that meaning is defined, not by an actual political philosophy, but merely by those who call themselves such.

You're perfectly welcome to stick your head in the sand (or in this case whatever old copy of a dictionary you worship) and not ever come out for air. Your rigid, one dimensional interpretation of words with an ever-changing meaning in an ever changing political landscape will be your downfall, not mine.

You should pal around with Chuz Life. You two are made from the same mold. He luvz his definitions so. :lol:

 

[Manc Skipper]

Eurocentric definitions are preferable in a discussion of the actions of a Conservative-ruled European state.

 

[Arcana XV]

Eurocentric definitions are preferable in a discussion of the actions of a Conservative-ruled European state.

Well, I didn't think stating the obvious was necessary, but, yeah. :lol:

 

[Gardener]

Eurocentric definitions are preferable in a discussion of the actions of a Conservative-ruled European state.

Sorry, but ignorance is never preferable to knowedge.

 

[Gardener]

You're perfectly welcome to stick your head in the sand (or in this case whatever old copy of a dictionary you worship) and not ever come out for air. Your rigid, one dimensional interpretation of words with an ever-changing meaning in an ever changing political landscape will be your downfall, not mine.

You should pal around with Chuz Life. You two are made from the same mold. He luvz his definitions so. :lol:

It would have been much simpler for you to have admitted that you have never studied political science and haven't the foggiest idea what political terms actually mean.

 

[TacticalEvilDan]

If it is a mistake to know what political terms actually mean, then I am guilty as charged.

For your edification, however, I would point out that the "conserve" referenced by the word conservative relates to the inclination to conserve social institutions. The mistake is not mine here, since your ignorance of both the etymology and meaning of the word is manifest in this all too typically Eurocentric attitude that insists it means whatever you say it means, and that meaning is defined, not by an actual political philosophy, but merely by those who call themselves such.

This is a load of crap.

Arcana XV, who is well-versed in US politics, would've used the term as it pertains to politics in the US if the subject had been US politics, which it isn't.

Since the subject is European politics (British, specifically), she's using the term as it pertains to politics in Europe.

That's not Eurocentric. That's simple logic.

You aren't guilty of knowledge, you're guilty of either ignorance of the subject or of being deliberately obtuse.

 

[Arcana XV]

It would have been much simpler for you to have admitted that you have never studied political science and haven't the foggiest idea what political terms actually mean.

I could do that, but my Mama raised me right and she hates it when I lie.

Here's the thing: As much as you, and other rigid academically minded people, would like it to be so, the fact is that the original definitions of the words "conservative" and "liberal" no longer apply to anyone. I don't believe there are any true conservatives, nor true liberals left in the West. The two ideologies have bled into one another to create, not one, but several hybrid ideologies. This is especially true in Europe. Our "conservatives", or whatever your strictly academic brain would prefer to call them, it matters little to me, are not social conservatives. Our religious parties cover that socially conservative ground, but ironically, they tend to be fiscally liberal.

I'm sure we'll get to talk at some point, in some other more on topic thread, about the original definitions of these words. That's if you can drag your cyberass out of the Middle East forum long enough. If we meet again in such a thread, you'll find me in there arguing that true "conservatism" and true "liberalism" have become nothing more than theories impossible to put into practice in the modern world, at least in our Western political landscape.

Now, I'm going to say it again, because none of your whining in here has made any difference to change this very simple fact:

Conservative (especially in Europe) no longer = socially conservative.

:2wave:

 

[PeteEU]

It would have been much simpler for you to have admitted that you have never studied political science and haven't the foggiest idea what political terms actually mean.

You mean American political science... and since we are talking about the UK, then it has zero relevance to the subject. Like it or not, you cant transplant American political tags outside the US, unless it is a place like Iran.

 

[Hicup]

You mean American political science... and since we are talking about the UK, then it has zero relevance to the subject. Like it or not, you cant transplant American political tags outside the US, unless it is a place like Iran.

How about Canada? Canada is "more" Euro than American, right? I happen to agree with Gardener on this, and simply because you say it ain't so bro, does not make it so. Regardless of how an individual from any European nation might label themselves politically, (You can lob in the USA for that matter) the fact is that Gardener is 100% correct with his understanding of the root-meaning, and plain definition of the word conservative. I dare you to show him, oh and me since I'm here now, how we're wrong.

Gardener was probably having a laugh at your expense, and as such decided to take some time in responding, but my laugh only lasted a few minutes. You might start here I know, I know its Wiki, but should suffice for now. We can get much deeper into the subject if you so desire. I brief synopsis, reads:

Conservatism (Latin: conservare, "to preserve")[1] is a political and social philosophy that promotes the maintenance of traditional institutions and opposes rapid change in society. Some conservatives seek to preserve things as they are, emphasizing stability and continuity, while others oppose modernism and seek a return to "the way things were."[2][3] The first established use of the term in a political context was by François-René de Chateaubriand in 1819, following the French Revolution.[4] The term has since been used to describe a wide range of views. According to Hailsham, a former chairman of the British Conservative Party, "Conservatism is not so much a philosophy as an attitude, a constant force, performing a timeless function in the development of a free society, and corresponding to a deep and permanent requirement of human nature itself".[5]

Robert Eccleshall states, "It is the persistent image of society as a command structure in which the responsibilities of leadership can be exercised within the framework of a strong state manifested in divine-right royalism ... that distinguishes English conservatism from rival ideologies."[6]

Political science often credits British politician Edmund Burke with many of the ideas now called conservative.[7]

Conservative political parties include the Liberal Democratic Party in Japan, the Republican Party in the United States, the Conservative Party in the United Kingdom, the Liberal Party of Australia, the Kuomintang of the Republic of China (Taiwan), the Conservative Party of Canada, Pakistan Muslim League in Pakistan, and the Bharatiya Janata Party in India.

Your turn ...


Tim-

 

[GayLibertarian]

I wish Mr. Obama would legisltate for gay marriage. Unfortuantely he does not beleive we have the right to marry.

Mr. Obama has the right to marry ... but we don't.

Mr. Obama took our votes and our money ... but he will not advocate on our behalf.

It is possible the President may change his mind. Word has it that President Bush is now pro-gay marriage thanks to Laura Bush and of course Dick Cheney has been for gay rights for many, many years due to his lesbian daughter. No ... I dont agree with their politics ... but if we have those who beleive we should have the same rights then I will accept that.

I hope that someone in the White House (Michelle?) tells Barack that we are indeed human....

 

[CriticalThought]

Yet again we have another government trying to legalize gay marriage without looking to the voters... I hope this fails. Homosexual unions are not marriage.

It's interesting how rabidly anti-Republic the conservative elements have become on this issue. I'm actually waiting with suppressed glee for the moment there is an issue that the majority will support that social conservatives do not support. I want to see how pro direct democracy those conservative elements are when it is some other Constitutional right up for vote, such as their freedom to bare arms or their freedom to practice their religion.

 

[Your Star]

It's interesting how rabidly anti-Republic the conservative elements have become on this issue. I'm actually waiting with suppressed glee for the moment there is an issue that the majority will support that social conservatives do not support. I want to see how pro direct democracy those conservative elements are when it is some other Constitutional right up for vote, such as their freedom to bare arms or their freedom to practice their religion.

Yep, I really can't wait for a popular vote on gun rights to go against what they want, and then have them say that the Constitution must be upheld! The majority can't take away MY rights!!!
Oh, the hypocrisy.

 

[Gipper]

The anti-gun lobby is almost as intellectually bereft as the anti-gay marriage lobby.

Whereas the homophobia is just an emotional weakness, anti-gun people actually believe what they preach and attempt to come up with red herring pseudo-statistics to "prove" their idiocy.

 

[Your Star]

The anti-gun lobby is almost as intellectually bereft as the anti-gay marriage lobby.

Whereas the homophobia is just an emotional weakness, anti-gun people actually believe what they preach and attempt to come up with red herring pseudo-statistics to "prove" their idiocy.

You don't think the homophobes don't do the same?

 

[Gipper]

There is no math-based logic in railing against gay marriage. It's just a matter of belief and principle.

You can, however, use statistics to show that banning guns is an awful thing to do. Likewise, there is equal stupidity between statements like "Ah dun want no butt pah-rites gittin may-reed cuz God dun want dat" and "But if everyone had guns, we'd all just go shooting each other".

I put redneck inflection in the first one to show the average mindset of the anti-gay lobby.

 

[joe six-pack]

"Some conservatives seek to preserve things as they are, emphasizing stability and continuity, while others oppose modernism and seek a return to "the way things were."

Can we go back to the 1970s, before oppresive bans on gay marriage were started? Can we go back before DOMA was written?

Oh, wait, "Social Conservatism" is just another term for Right-Wing Progressivism. Oh, the hypocracy. Right-wing Progressives...

I realize true Conservatives just want minimal Governement and maximum "freedom." I can respect that, but social-conservatism is an oppressive ideology.