Brexit: just what does it mean to European Posters?

[Andalublue]

I will not argue. I just wrote a comment perceived from Russia that Putin enjoys Brexit

I'm sure he does, since he views democratic accountability as a weakness, in the same way that his Soviet predecessors and mentors did.

 

[German guy]

I agree, but please don't think for a second that I would conflate your views with his. I 100% agree that we have to maintain an optimism that the EU can be turned into a democratic institution that works for the benefit of the European people, and not just for European-based business, but that means taking positions that are antagonistic to the current EU power-base and establishment. That's why the only political party that I am a member of, Unidos Podemos, is arguing for the democratisation of institutions such as the ECB and the Commission. We're arguing for the imposition of the concept of subsidiarity which the current EU establishment pays only lip-service to, but which is the cornerstone of why we maintain support for the entire EU project.

In all of this debate, I hope you keep an eye on tomorrow's Spanish General Election where UP has a real chance of becoming the governing party and cutting the ground underneath the right-wing hegemony over the EU's anti-democratic development.

I'm rather fond of Spain, as it seems to be one of the few EU countries where discontentment with the current status of the EU has not caused a rise of far-right ideas and right-wing populism. I'm glad that parties such as Podemos maintain a constructive position.

As I said before, I feel we need a "New Deal" for the EU. It's now up to European politicians to propose bold ideas. If Podemos will soon be in a top position to make such proposals, all the better. We can use all ideas we can get!

Haven't really looked into the details, but I read somewhere Emmanuel Macron of France has ideas for solving the euro problems, too. The more proposals are on the table, the better.

 

[Higgins86]

So IC, we've opted ( I voted, so I guess I'm complicit in legitimising that vote) for de-integration, if not disintegration. What most concerns me now is what the plan is. Perhaps Higgins, as our only bona fide proud, British Brexiteer, can fill us in. I want the following questions answered:

1. Why are we postponing Article 50 notification? I thought we just voted out. Why are we postponing it?
2. What legislation/polcies are going to be enacted now to cut immigration levels to below 100,000 per year?
3. What is our initial negotiating position going to be on the single market? Are we going to accept free movement of labour for access? Are we going to try to make the WTO regulations work so that we can pull up the drawbridge?
4. George Osborne is widely, and rightly, criticised for threatening a post-Brexit, extra-austerity budget. Can we therefore be guaranteed that more austerity is NOT on the agenda?
5. The Brexiteers promised that the 350 million weekly contributions to the EU would be spent on the NHS and public services. When is that likely to be legislated?

You see, I have a feeling that all of those 'Project Fear' predictions are one-by-one about to be realised. The Brexiteers are already back-pedalling on every one of their key campaign promises: "Reduce immigration? We never promised that." "Three hundred and fifty million a week? Well, we're not going to have that much available to spend."

Call me cynical or, alternatively, ludicrously optimistic, but I have a sneaking suspicion that the Brexiteers are going to look for any excuse to delay Article 50 notification as long as possible and then back-track to the point at which the UK accepts almost every regulation the EU currently insist upon in order to trade as normal. I can see the referendum outcome as being almost analogous to that Greek one last year in which the Greek people said no to the Troika, then the Greek government accepted a deal that was far worse than the one the voters rejected.

Boris's desperate careerism, populism and opportunism might well turn him into the UK's shortest governing PM, and its least popular. And with Cameron still high in people's minds, that going to be some achievement. Perhaps his only political achievement.

1. I think we are probably trying to settle down the markets and we’re getting all our ducks in a row. We have entered unchartered water here and I don’t think anyone wins if we rush this process. Merkel said as much today, why not make this exit as painless as possible for all parties?
2. We can cut down on immigration by making very small changes that are currently forbidden by the EU. The main thing that needs to be controlled is work permits, if EU migrants were subjected to the same restrictions as non EU citizens then immigration would be reduced sharply. Tourism wouldn’t suffer at all as we wouldn’t require tourist visa’s from the EU ( similar to Americans that visit) and there would be no restriction on student visas etc. A points based system would confine work permits to the highly skilled while still maintaining free movement. This system would also allow us to be stricter with background checks etc.
3. Already answered this . The points system would allow free movement to an extend that we can control and students, tourists would not be restricted.
4. I think austerity measures will most probably have to be implemented at first while we sort out how we are going to move forward. This divorce was never going to be painless but we have to look to the long term benefits not the short term damage. As I have stated many times recently the EU economy is stagnant and the ECB is desperately trying to revive it. They are taking incredible risks with recent moves ( corporate bonds etc) and not a single economist worldwide has suggested that there is light at the end of the tunnel. We have rolled the dice for sure but it’s a gamble worth taking. The Euro zone as it stands right now offers little to no financial upside. In the short term we won’t pay EU tariffs for non EU goods which means we are going to pay a lot less when importing foods especially from the commonwealth and Asia,
5. Can’t comment on this until the dust settles.

 

[Higgins86]

however has a member of NATO and the UN security council we still have an obligation to help with the Syrian refugee crisis and hope we can work with the EU to help.

 

[Andalublue]

1. I think we are probably trying to settle down the markets and we’re getting all our ducks in a row. We have entered unchartered water here and I don’t think anyone wins if we rush this process. Merkel said as much today, why not make this exit as painless as possible for all parties?

Delaying Article 50 notification isn't painless. As all bankers, economists and City types insist, what causes pain is uncertainty. Things remain uncertain the longer negotiations for Brexit remain. As I'm raising, the Tories delay in notifying the Article 50 process makes people believe that the Brexiters are getting cold feet. Why's that?

2. We can cut down on immigration by making very small changes that are currently forbidden by the EU. The main thing that needs to be controlled is work permits, if EU migrants were subjected to the same restrictions as non EU citizens then immigration would be reduced sharply. Tourism wouldn’t suffer at all as we wouldn’t require tourist visa’s from the EU ( similar to Americans that visit) and there would be no restriction on student visas etc. A points based system would confine work permits to the highly skilled while still maintaining free movement. This system would also allow us to be stricter with background checks etc.

If that were true, how come non-EU migration hasn't fallen? The EU hasn't restricted the government from cracking down on that at all.

3. Already answered this . The points system would allow free movement to an extend that we can control and students, tourists would not be restricted.

Sorry Higgins, this hasn't been answered at all. What is our negotiating position on the single market, not just on migration, but on tariffs, migration, regulations etc. I get the impression the Brexiteer leadership never expected to win, hence they have no plan.

4. I think austerity measures will most probably have to be implemented at first while we sort out how we are going to move forward. This divorce was never going to be painless but we have to look to the long term benefits not the short term damage.

What are those long-term economic benefits?

As I have stated many times recently the EU economy is stagnant and the ECB is desperately trying to revive it.

Simply not true. Here's the data. The Eurozone is growing as strongly as Singapore and more strongly than Japan, Hong Kong, Taiwan and Canada - you know, all those economies we're told are the ones we should aspire to emulate. I have no effing idea how that campaign trope about Europe being the only continent not to be growing has been allowed to pass without being so easily disproved. I guess it's been convenient to ignore.

They are taking incredible risks with recent moves ( corporate bonds etc) and not a single economist worldwide has suggested that there is light at the end of the tunnel.

I'd disprove that easily, except I haven't worked out a way to disprove a negative.

We have rolled the dice for sure but it’s a gamble worth taking.

Easy to say. I have a feeling we'll be having a different dialogue somewhere not too far down the line.

In the short term we won’t pay EU tariffs for non EU goods which means we are going to pay a lot less when importing foods especially from the commonwealth and Asia,

Except that transport costs and lack of supply chains means those goods will be uncompetitively expensive in the long-term.

5. Can’t comment on this until the dust settles.

Sorry, but that was one of the top 3 campaign claims made by the Brexit camp. I guess you got the memo and realised that it was a claim based on a lie and was never going to be fulfilled. If the referendum had been a court case, a retrial would be only a matter of course.

 

[Higgins86]

Delaying Article 50 notification isn't painless. As all bankers, economists and City types insist, what causes pain is uncertainty. Things remain uncertain the longer negotiations for Brexit remain. As I'm raising, the Tories delay in notifying the Article 50 process makes people believe that the Brexiters are getting cold feet. Why's that?

If that were true, how come non-EU migration hasn't fallen? The EU hasn't restricted the government from cracking down on that at all.

Sorry Higgins, this hasn't been answered at all. What is our negotiating position on the single market, not just on migration, but on tariffs, migration, regulations etc. I get the impression the Brexiteer leadership never expected to win, hence they have no plan.

What are those long-term economic benefits?

Simply not true. Here's the data. The Eurozone is growing as strongly as Singapore and more strongly than Japan, Hong Kong, Taiwan and Canada - you know, all those economies we're told are the ones we should aspire to emulate. I have no effing idea how that campaign trope about Europe being the only continent not to be growing has been allowed to pass without being so easily disproved. I guess it's been convenient to ignore.

I'd disprove that easily, except I haven't worked out a way to disprove a negative.
Easy to say. I have a feeling we'll be having a different dialogue somewhere not too far down the line.

In the short term we won’t pay EU tariffs for non EU goods which means we are going to pay a lot less when importing foods especially from the commonwealth and Asia,

Except that transport costs and lack of supply chains means those goods will be uncompetitively expensive in the long-term.

Sorry, but that was one of the top 3 campaign claims made by the Brexit camp. I guess you got the memo and realised that it was a claim based on a lie and was never going to be fulfilled. If the referendum had been a court case, a retrial would be only a matter of course.

1. Problem is Andy the current elected UK government did not support a brexit so of course they are delaying article 50, they are scrambling.
2. Net migration for 2015 was over 300k which was the second highest figure on record. 186k of that number was from the EU ( equals the highest ever). A point system would dramatically change that number and stricter measure would bring down non-EU figures as well. However I don’t think that 100k number is something we will see in the foreseeable figure because of the Syrian crisis which I hope the UK helps resolve. However 186k is a huge number from the EU and we can cut that in half ( at least). With the issues Southern Europe is having its safe to say that EU immigration has the potential to explode. Leaving now allows us to control this flow.
3. I can’t really speak to our negotiating position on the single market because again its very early days. I have maintained for a while now that the EU will have to play nice because they just can’t afford to lose our economy entirely.
4. Here is what your Euro Data doesn’t tell you, the ECB is running out of bonds to buy, available bonds in smaller EU nations has run dry. Each month the ECB has to buy a set amount of bonds, buying that is spread across the eurozone’s members based on how much capital they hold at the central bank, the so-called capital key. The ECB also can’t hold more than a third of a country’s total debt. It bought less Irish and Portuguese bonds than it can do under the capital key, the first time this has happened since the programme was launched. The central bank made up the shortfall by buying up the debt of larger nations, such as Germany. This is a sign sign that ECB has had to slow down on buying this debt in order to avoid breaching the one-third rule in the future. Really this just highlights the “ man behind the curtain” that is the EU, while all may look rosy its literally a great lie. The smaller nations GDP is stagnant, unemployment high especially amongst the young and the Euro isn’t exactly setting the world on fire.
5. Again I can’t comment on the NHS promise until the dust settles, more than likely not until the next election

 

[Andalublue]

Delaying Article 50 notification isn't painless. As all bankers, economists and City types insist, what causes pain is uncertainty. Things remain uncertain the longer negotiations for Brexit remain. As I'm raising, the Tories delay in notifying the Article 50 process makes people believe that the Brexiters are getting cold feet. Why's that?

If that were true, how come non-EU migration hasn't fallen? The EU hasn't restricted the government from cracking down on that at all.

Sorry Higgins, this hasn't been answered at all. What is our negotiating position on the single market, not just on migration, but on tariffs, migration, regulations etc. I get the impression the Brexiteer leadership never expected to win, hence they have no plan.

What are those long-term economic benefits?

Simply not true. Here's the data. The Eurozone is growing as strongly as Singapore and more strongly than Japan, Hong Kong, Taiwan and Canada - you know, all those economies we're told are the ones we should aspire to emulate. I have no effing idea how that campaign trope about Europe being the only continent not to be growing has been allowed to pass without being so easily disproved. I guess it's been convenient to ignore.

I'd disprove that easily, except I haven't worked out a way to disprove a negative.
Easy to say. I have a feeling we'll be having a different dialogue somewhere not too far down the line.

In the short term we won’t pay EU tariffs for non EU goods which means we are going to pay a lot less when importing foods especially from the commonwealth and Asia

Those suppliers cannot provide goods as cheaply or in the quantities we need, irrespective of tariffs. The world's moved on, Higgins. Those suppliers don't rely on our markets and can't supply them to order.

1. Problem is Andy the current elected UK government did not support a brexit so of course they are delaying article 50, they are scrambling.

Nope. It's Boris and Gove that are delaying, not Cameron.

2. Net migration for 2015 was over 300k which was the second highest figure on record. 186k of that number was from the EU ( equals the highest ever). A point system would dramatically change that number and stricter measure would bring down non-EU figures as well. However I don’t think that 100k number is something we will see in the foreseeable figure ...

... Leaving now allows us to control this flow.

I see. So you're back-tracking on those campaign promises too, just like the weasel Hannan.

I have maintained for a while now that the EU will have to play nice because they just can’t afford to lose our economy entirely.

It's got nothing to do with the EU 'playing nice'. They can't play nice or nasty until you (the Brexiters) tell them what you want, and no one seems to know what you want. What DO you want?

4. Here is what your Euro Data doesn’t tell you, the ECB is running out of bonds to buy, available bonds in smaller EU nations has run dry. Each month the ECB has to buy a set amount of bonds, buying that is spread across the eurozone’s members based on how much capital they hold at the central bank, the so-called capital key. The ECB also can’t hold more than a third of a country’s total debt. ...

...the Euro isn’t exactly setting the world on fire.

So, you appear to be saying that bond issues is the marker for how we judge the economic performance of national economies, that GDP growth is not the key metric. That's not an argument I've heard a single Brexit supporter making. Throughout the campaign we've been told to focus on GDP growth. Now Brexit has won, that's not the metric. See how we're a bit sceptical about your campaign's honesty?

5. Again I can’t comment on the NHS promise until the dust settles, more than likely not until the next election

Not what the Brexit campaign was arguing just, ooh, 48 hours ago.

I have been of the opinion that a democratic vote is binding. Like it or not, that was the decision of the British electorate and must be respected. I've poured cold water elsewhere on people who suggested that the vote must be rerun because it was a legitimately-run referendum, no question of vote-rigging, and with a perfectly respectable turnout. I'm starting to have doubts because, to return to legal analogies, it appears that a number of witnesses on the prosecution side have been committing perjury, i.e. knowingly misleading the voters, and provably so. I'm feeling a little sick because, if this is the case, within a shortish period of time those lies may become a casus belli for those who feel deceived and betrayed. I'm not sure whether Johnson, Gove and Farage in their economy of truth realise what they are so charismatically and nonchalantly toying with.

 

[Higgins86]

Those suppliers cannot provide goods as cheaply or in the quantities we need, irrespective of tariffs. The world's moved on, Higgins. Those suppliers don't rely on our markets and can't supply them to order.
Nope. It's Boris and Gove that are delaying, not Cameron.

I see. So you're back-tracking on those campaign promises too, just like the weasel Hannan.

It's got nothing to do with the EU 'playing nice'. They can't play nice or nasty until you (the Brexiters) tell them what you want, and no one seems to know what you want. What DO you want?

So, you appear to be saying that bond issues is the marker for how we judge the economic performance of national economies, that GDP growth is not the key metric. That's not an argument I've heard a single Brexit supporter making. Throughout the campaign we've been told to focus on GDP growth. Now Brexit has won, that's not the metric. See how we're a bit sceptical about your campaign's honesty?
Not what the Brexit campaign was arguing just, ooh, 48 hours ago.

I have been of the opinion that a democratic vote is binding. Like it or not, that was the decision of the British electorate and must be respected. I've poured cold water elsewhere on people who suggested that the vote must be rerun because it was a legitimately-run referendum, no question of vote-rigging, and with a perfectly respectable turnout. I'm starting to have doubts because, to return to legal analogies, it appears that a number of witnesses on the prosecution side have been committing perjury, i.e. knowingly misleading the voters, and provably so. I'm feeling a little sick because, if this is the case, within a shortish period of time those lies may become a casus belli for those who feel deceived and betrayed. I'm not sure whether Johnson, Gove and Farage in their economy of truth realise what they are so charismatically and nonchalantly toying with.

Because GDP is just one metric. It wasn't GDP that sunk the world economy in 2008 it was the housing market in the US and more importantly toxic assets. If you can't see the similarities with the ECB bonds movements then you are truly lost to the Brussels propaganda. They literally can't buy anymore debt within their own market so now they are buying corporate bonds at a staggering rate, just buying up more debt because the Eurozone is flat lining.

 

[Serenity]

however has a member of NATO and the UN security council we still have an obligation to help with the Syrian refugee crisis and hope we can work with the EU to help.

A nice sentiment but fair to say that it's likely not shared by many of Brexit voters. Immigration dominated the brexit debate and knowing the vile platform that many of the supporters were pushing (just look at the UKIP EU referendum poster that was released a few days before the vote). It doesn't project support, it's similar to henious Nazi propoganda and doesn't reflect views that would be consistent with promoting support/help for the refugee crisis.

 

[Higgins86]

A nice sentiment but fair to say that it's likely not shared by many of Brexit voters. Immigration dominated the brexit debate and knowing the vile platform that many of the supporters were pushing (just look at the UKIP EU referendum poster that was released a few days before the vote). It doesn't project support, it's similar to henious Nazi propoganda and doesn't reflect views that would be consistent with promoting support/help for the refugee crisis.

Well then you just need to have faith in the British people. The vote was about the EU nothing else , yes I have no doubt that a few million got caught up on the silliness but a good chunk of the brexit vote were labour voters.

It will be a cold day in hell before Farage or Boris are elected PM

 

[PeteEU]

No it was a man with serious mental problems that did that.
It's an emotional subject so I'm not going to attack you for this outrageous statement. Instead I will clarify

Yes but he also was a nationalist. His mental problems along with his nationalist views lead him to do what he did.

It amazes me that people keep letting far right terrorists off with the mental problems excuse....

- I'm not a member of Britain first, NF or the BNP and will never be. They disgust me.

Never said that you were. Just said that you were a nationalist and there is nothing to be ashamed off by being a nationalist. I am a nationalist. It all depends how radical you are as a nationalist. Jo Cox's murder is an extreme radical nationalist.

- I'm a father of two, married to an American and I'm very well travelled. I love the world and I love Europe.

Good for you.

- I do not want to ban immigrants, stop muslims from entering my country nor do I want to turn away asylum seekers.

Good for you.

- I am however proud to be English and will never apologise for that.

And nore should you. But there is a fine line being proud of your nation and thinking that your nation is superior to others. We are all nationalist, but how we go around promoting our country and defining it, shows how big a nationalist and radical we are.

The reason I went after your comment was that you defined yourself as English and not British.. That makes you an English nationalist, which means you are more proud of being English than British. I remember there was a guy on these boards many moons ago, who was a real radical nationalist. He defined himself as a person from Wessex I believe... that is extreme dont you think? Wessex has not existed since the 10th century..

 

[PeteEU]

Do you have any predictions on or fears about the type of war, where, and why the war will be fought?

Good question, and I got no answers. Will depend what type of nationalist freaks take over.. will it be about race again... religion.... who knows.

 

[PeteEU]

What a terrible post. Putting somebody who politically disagrees with you in the same grouping as a murderer. You should be ashamed of yourself. But of course you aren't.

Everyone is a nationalist for **** sake.. we all are in the same group as that murderer. I am a proud dane, and hence I am in the same group as the murderer. The difference is and always will be the degree of nationalism of people.. and Higgens is in no way the same minority as the killer, who is willing to become a killer to "defend his views and his country". Once a nationalist gets violent or threatens violent, then they are in a whole different part of nationalism... but that does not change the fact that I, you, Higgens and everyone else who is proud of their nation are nationalists as well.

 

[Andalublue]

Everyone is a nationalist for **** sake.

Speak for yourself.

 

[PeteEU]

Speak for yourself.

Okay almost everyone.. what are you then? Martian?

 

[Andalublue]

Okay almost everyone.. what are you then? Martian?

Are those the only two options? Nationalist or alien species? Typical nationalist dualism; you're one of us or you're barely human. :roll:

 

[PeteEU]

Are those the only two options? Nationalist or alien species? Typical nationalist dualism; you're one of us or you're barely human. :roll:

Hey me not being human is my business!

But seriously, what do you define yourself as? European? World citizen? British? Granadian?

 

[Infinite Chaos]

~ You see, I have a feeling that all of those 'Project Fear' predictions are one-by-one about to be realised. The Brexiteers are already back-pedalling on every one of their key campaign promises: "Reduce immigration? We never promised that." "Three hundred and fifty million a week? Well, we're not going to have that much available to spend."

Me too, but Ian Duncan Smith this morning seems to be positioning himself as the man who will stick to those promises. Like him or loathe him - what will be needed is a strong leader who will get to grips with things and bring what is left of the country together.

~ Call me cynical or, alternatively, ludicrously optimistic, but I have a sneaking suspicion that the Brexiteers are going to look for any excuse to delay Article 50 notification as long as possible and then back-track to the point at which the UK accepts almost every regulation the EU currently insist upon in order to trade as normal. I can see the referendum outcome as being almost analogous to that Greek one last year in which the Greek people said no to the Troika, then the Greek government accepted a deal that was far worse than the one the voters rejected.

If we get someone like Johnson Gove or Fox then yes, we will get Brexit lite and yes - a deal far worse than what we (as a country) just rejected.

Please see below - been wondering whether to create a whole new thread on this - I still may but this thread is about what Brexit could look like so I'll try it here first.

~ The vote was about the EU nothing else , yes I have no doubt that a few million got caught up on the silliness but a good chunk of the brexit vote were labour voters ~

BBC iPlayer - The Andrew Marr Show - 26/06/2016

Watch the first bit from 6.10 to 9.30 ish.

Leaves our country deeply divided. It's not just the overall numbers - the 17 million leavers against the 16 million stayers.

~ The minute you dig down into the data, you find poorer areas with more unskilled and semi skilled workers and more pensioners much likelier to vote leave. The map of the results show a yawning gap between the posher, better educated and richer parts of Britain: London, some of the city centres elsewhere university towns and so on and the huge swathes of post industrial ex mining and struggling fishing and agricultural Britain.

~ None of this should come as a surprise, nor should we blame today's campaigners.

For the past 50 years we have seen the decline in heavy industrial, making things and exporting Britain and the rise in service industries, banking and culture which mopped up some of the lost jobs.

~ London boomed as a global centre while; ignored by too much of the political and media class, places like industrial Wales, the black country and struggling coastal towns became ever poorer, ever more desolate.

Meanwhile weaves of migration and globalised culture washed among us, eroding our sense of self. Whole communities changed colour and language leaving older people bemused and cut off.

As the numbers from eastern Europe rose, eager, white, hard working new neighbours rose alarm grew in the poorer parts of the country but the self confidently multi ethnic, liberal urban class high on high house prices and high employment levels was having such a good time they barely noticed.

~ This has been the rebellion of the diminished against the cocky, the ignored against the shapers of modern times and the struggling against the strutting.

The question to all of us especially the British- who will talk for those people who have been left behind? We've all blamed Europe for failure to spread wealth around, failure to develop new industry for those run down areas and failure to plan for the future. Farage has been the populist but even he has tarnished that image by backtracking on the NHS pledge. The only person on Andrew Marr going in reverse and saying we should was Ian Duncan Smith...

 

[Andalublue]

Hey me not being human is my business!

But seriously, what do you define yourself as? European? World citizen? British? Granadian?

'Nationalist' is a political identification, not a personal one. Everyone's personal self-identification is different. I guess first and foremost I think of myself as a European. I'm Yorkshire-English too, but I've never felt much affinity with being British. Maybe I'm Yorko-Spanish nowadays. Who cares? Politically, I'm an internationalist. Did that possible category not occur to you?

 

[PeteEU]

'Nationalist' is a political identification, not a personal one. Everyone's personal self-identification is different. I guess first and foremost I think of myself as a European. I'm Yorkshire-English too, but I've never felt much affinity with being British. Maybe I'm Yorko-Spanish nowadays. Who cares? Politically, I'm an internationalist. Did that possible category not occur to you?

In the context of the British referendum.. no. But point taken.

 

[Jack Hays]

In the context of the British referendum.. no. But point taken.

Apropos of this discussion, George Will's take:

Brexit: Britain’s welcome revival of nationhood

The “leave” campaign won the referendum on withdrawing Britain from the European Union because the arguments on which the “remain” side relied made leave’s case. The remain campaign began with a sham, was monomaniacal with its Project Fear and ended in governmental thuggishness.
The sham was Prime Minister David Cameron’s attempt to justify remain by negotiating E.U. concessions regarding Britain’s subservience to the E.U. This dickering for scraps of lost sovereignty underscored Britain’s servitude and achieved so little that Remainers rarely mentioned it during their campaign. . . .

 

[Infinite Chaos]

Apropos of this discussion, George Will's take:

Brexit: Britain’s welcome revival of nationhood

The “leave” campaign won the referendum on withdrawing Britain from the European Union because the arguments on which the “remain” side relied made leave’s case. The remain campaign began with a sham, was monomaniacal with its Project Fear and ended in governmental thuggishness.
The sham was Prime Minister David Cameron’s attempt to justify remain by negotiating E.U. concessions regarding Britain’s subservience to the E.U. This dickering for scraps of lost sovereignty underscored Britain’s servitude and achieved so little that Remainers rarely mentioned it during their campaign. . . .

If he's talking about "English Nationhood" then he has been watching and understanding events, if he thinks "United Kingdom" of "Great Britain" then he's just another uninformed writer who knows nothing of what has been happening here.

 

[Jack Hays]

If he's talking about "English Nationhood" then he has been watching and understanding events, if he thinks "United Kingdom" of "Great Britain" then he's just another uninformed writer who knows nothing of what has been happening here.

George Will is very seldom uninformed. I believe his point concerned the concept and rights of nationhood, regardless of which parts of the United Kingdom choose to participate.

 

[Infinite Chaos]

George Will is very seldom uninformed. I believe his point concerned the concept and rights of nationhood, regardless of which parts of the United Kingdom choose to participate.

I read his article and beg to differ.

 

[Jack Hays]

I read his article and beg to differ.

As you wish.