Brexit: just what does it mean to European Posters?

[Infinite Chaos]

For the avoidance of doubt - the pros and cons of the UK referendum can be found here.

http://www.debatepolitics.com/europe/246596-uk-eu-referendum-w-40-728-a.html

This thread is NOT about Obama / Trump / US gun Law / Socialism etc

Yesterday in the flurry of stock market crash we have had this from Brexit

Farage disowns £8billion promise - Farage

Brexit disowns cut immigration promise - Nigel Evans

Brett likely to agree some form of EU free trade deal - Hannan

So, if you voted Brexit: what does it mean for you and what do you think the policies will be?

 

[PeteEU]

For me it means the following.

1) Uncertainty across the board which is not good. Economically it can have wide ranging consequences the longer the uncertainty goes on and with the delaying tactics of the British, then this can hurt us all.
2) The further rise of right wing fascism and neo nazism in Europe.
3) Increased nationalism and racism and xenophobia.

I certainly fear for the future of Europe and the world in general. This movement towards nationalism and xenophobia is not good..... as it will lead to war.

 

[Chomsky]

For me it means the following.

1) Uncertainty across the board which is not good. Economically it can have wide ranging consequences the longer the uncertainty goes on and with the delaying tactics of the British, then this can hurt us all.
2) The further rise of right wing fascism and neo nazism in Europe.
3) Increased nationalism and racism and xenophobia.

I certainly fear for the future of Europe and the world in general. This movement towards nationalism and xenophobia is not good..... as it will lead to war.

To the bolded:

Exactly - and avoiding war was the exact reason Sir Winston Churchill proposed an EEC/EU type entity not long after the war, in his Zurich speech! [much to General DeGaulle's chagrin!]

The EU may have rolled into an economically focused juggernaut, but it's underlying unifying purpose was to prevent war.

 

[Higgins86]

- We can finally put ourselves first
- We can set our own course.
- Finally free of the EU bureaucrats and the endless red tape from Brussels.
- A huge amount of people within the EU are unhappy with the current situation. This could be the catalyst that encourages other countries to do the same. In my opinion the EU experiment has failed. It has no clear message on major issues, the ECB has struggled to revive the economy and smaller nations within the EU have lost their identity.
- In the years since the War England has struggled with her own identity. I think this is a clear statement from the English people that they are fed up of being overlooked, Be it Europe, Scotland or big bank etc. We want to control our future and we want to be heard.

 

[Infinite Chaos]

- We can finally put ourselves first
- We can set our own course.
- Finally free of the EU bureaucrats and the endless red tape from Brussels.
- A huge amount of people within the EU are unhappy with the current situation. This could be the catalyst that encourages other countries to do the same. In my opinion the EU experiment has failed. It has no clear message on major issues, the ECB has struggled to revive the economy and smaller nations within the EU have lost their identity.
- In the years since the War England has struggled with her own identity. I think this is a clear statement from the English people that they are fed up of being overlooked, Be it Europe, Scotland or big bank etc. We want to control our future and we want to be heard.

Thanks Higgs, I don't mean to be dense but you know as well as I do there is a lot of consternation here in the UK about Brexit after the confessions by Brexit people in interviews and what it means so could you clarify how the points you make were not being met or were being met and how things would change now.

Set our own course - what was before and how will we do this after?
Free of Brussels bureaucrats and red tape - what was before and how will we do this after?
Control our future and be heard - - what was before and how will we do this after?

 

[PeteEU]

Thanks Higgs, I don't mean to be dense but you know as well as I do there is a lot of consternation here in the UK about Brexit after the confessions by Brexit people in interviews and what it means so could you clarify how the points you make were not being met or were being met and how things would change now.

Kinda think you have his very clear answer in this quote... Notice the bold parts..

In the years since the War England has struggled with her own identity. I think this is a clear statement from the English people that they are fed up of being overlooked, Be it Europe, Scotland or big bank etc. We want to control our future and we want to be heard.

To me it looks like English nationalism and imperial thinking.

Free of Brussels bureaucrats and red tape - what was before and how will we do this after?

Funny one since most red tape by far, is made by Westminster...

 

[Infinite Chaos]

Kinda think you have his very clear answer in this quote... Notice the bold parts..
To me it looks like English nationalism and imperial thinking.

Benefit of the doubt Pete. I don't see Higgs as that kind of person.

~ Funny one since most red tape by far, is made by Westminster...

I know, this one is going to be like the NHS and the free movement claims.. someone will be interviewed to confess at some point in the next 2-3 years.

 

[PeteEU]

Benefit of the doubt Pete. I don't see Higgs as that kind of person.

Well he has time to clarify, but since he mentioned Scotland in the sentence as well, then I have my doubts.

I know, this one is going to be like the NHS and the free movement claims.. someone will be interviewed to confess at some point in the next 2-3 years.

Well if it goes like with the NHS and free movement claims, then we only have to wait a few more hours.... in fact we dont, because there was a report on the BBC that talked exactly about that and a MP (I think) said exactly what I just said..

 

[German guy]

I see it as a historical event, perhaps the biggest after 1945 next to the fall of the Iron Curtain in 1989-91.

It marks either the beginning of the end of not just the EU, but of cohesion of the entire West, freedom in the West, and the dominant role of the West in the world.

Or it will later be considered as the crucial wake up-call Europe and the West needed, to pull the ship around in the last moment.


Of course I very much hope it'll be the latter. If the (rest of the) EU continues just like before, things will only get worse, far-right populism and anti-freedom authoritarianism will only continue to rise, until Europe finally falls apart and Russia, the new mecca of European authoritarians, collects the pieces.

That's why the EU, and the "establishment" in favor of liberal free societies in general, has to stop sleeping, but going back in the offense, pick up the fight and declare war against the enemies of freedom. All people in favor of a free, open society now have to realize the West is under the worst threat by authoritarianism since 1989 -- maybe it's even worse this time, as this threat mostly comes from within.

The EU needs to reform and fight hard to win back the trust of its peoples. That won't be possible with further "business as usual".

The centrifugal forces in the West have become very strong. This has to be acknowledged and countered with all means possible.

 

[Higgins86]

Well he has time to clarify, but since he mentioned Scotland in the sentence as well, then I have my doubts.



Well if it goes like with the NHS and free movement claims, then we only have to wait a few more hours.... in fact we dont, because there was a report on the BBC that talked exactly about that and a MP (I think) said exactly what I just said..

Well of course their is an element of nationalism in my thinking but why is that exclusively seen as a negative thing? Both the French revolution and the US were driven by nationalists.

I want my government to start concentrating on issues that are important to me, Devolution seems like its inevitable at this point so why fight it? Scottish independence get's rid of the "West Lothian question" and again allows my government to concentrate on issues that we care about.

Immigration obviously needs to be addressed as its a huge talking point in this country. Personally I don't want to see us turn our back on refugee's like Australia but at the same point the EU was a disaster especially in the past 12 months. I think its important to allow immigrants into this country but it should be better regulated and we need to agree on a uniformed policy.

 

[Higgins86]

To speak to the concern about potential War or conflict, I think that worry is unfounded and a bit of an overreaction. The UK remains of the security council, we remain a member of NATO and we will continue to work with other European nations when it comes to security. Nothing changes in that regards.

 

[Jack Hays]

Two perspectives worth reading:

A Bold Choice: Good for Freedom, Good for Growth
Larry Kudlow, CNBC

Britain's Awful Vote May Be a Tipping Point
Sebastian Mallaby, Washington Post

 

[PoS]

I see it as a historical event, perhaps the biggest after 1945 next to the fall of the Iron Curtain in 1989-91.

It marks either the beginning of the end of not just the EU, but of cohesion of the entire West, freedom in the West, and the dominant role of the West in the world.

Or it will later be considered as the crucial wake up-call Europe and the West needed, to pull the ship around in the last moment.


Of course I very much hope it'll be the latter. If the (rest of the) EU continues just like before, things will only get worse, far-right populism and anti-freedom authoritarianism will only continue to rise, until Europe finally falls apart and Russia, the new mecca of European authoritarians, collects the pieces.

That's why the EU, and the "establishment" in favor of liberal free societies in general, has to stop sleeping, but going back in the offense, pick up the fight and declare war against the enemies of freedom. All people in favor of a free, open society now have to realize the West is under the worst threat by authoritarianism since 1989 -- maybe it's even worse this time, as this threat mostly comes from within.

The EU needs to reform and fight hard to win back the trust of its peoples. That won't be possible with further "business as usual".

The centrifugal forces in the West have become very strong. This has to be acknowledged and countered with all means possible.

I think the EU will survive as long as Germany keeps supporting it- its their personal pet. But drastic reforms of its banking sector needs to be made- even though their members have a single currency, the fact that many countries within the union are not meeting their financial targets and the lack of coordination between monetary policy and spending between each member of the currency union is problematic and a is serious flaw. The union also needs to a have comprehensive plan to deal with refugees and immigration because each country seems to have a different idea as to what they want.

In the end, the only members who would be staying in the EU would have to be dominated by Germany and accept it as fact. The UK could not accept that and that's why many of them voted to leave.

 

[PeteEU]

Well of course their is an element of nationalism in my thinking but why is that exclusively seen as a negative thing? Both the French revolution and the US were driven by nationalists.

No they were not.

I want my government to start concentrating on issues that are important to me, Devolution seems like its inevitable at this point so why fight it? Scottish independence get's rid of the "West Lothian question" and again allows my government to concentrate on issues that we care about.

And yet you said English not British.. what about Wales and Northern Ireland.. they just colonies in your eyes?

Immigration obviously needs to be addressed as its a huge talking point in this country. Personally I don't want to see us turn our back on refugee's like Australia but at the same point the EU was a disaster especially in the past 12 months.

This is the problem ... the EU has nothing to do with the refugee problem of the last 12 months. It is national policy and governments that are responsible not the EU. The only one that could actually fix the problem would have been the EU, but certain countries like the UK were against the EU getting that power. So we have what we have now.. refugees playing the asylum game by jumping from country to country, and no border controls would not have prevented it... just made it harder and cost more money.

The root problem with the refugee issue is not solved by nationalism, xenophobia and racism... that is what got us into trouble in the first place.

I think its important to allow immigrants into this country but it should be better regulated and we need to agree on a uniformed policy.

But you had that lol. You could define your own policy on non-EU migration.. you could say no more Australians if you wanted to.. but YOUR government did nothing. You could even control EU migration by just implementing the existing rules! You need to be able to support yourself either by a job or a fat bank account and you need private medical insurance. That is the only way you legally can move to another EU country and that country has every right to kick you out if you dont meet those requirements.. so why the hell does the UK not use those rules?

 

[German guy]

IMO, the social imbalance in the EU indeed is a huge problem, maybe even the crucial problem. The dominant ideology in Europe/the West in the past three decades, the ideology of ever increasing open markets, deregulation (especially of the finance sector), privatization and "trickle down" promises -- the "neoliberal" ideology (does that term exist in the US, too?) -- that often refers to Thatcher and Reagan, has created many losers.

And these losers of this particular kind of progress now angrily blame everything they associate with this ideology: Not just internationalistic institutions such as UN and EU, free trade agreements and so on -- but also immigration, non-whites in general, and progressive ideas such as gender mainstreaming or anti-racism. It all merges into a kind of anti-system-ideology in a harsh backlash.

The EU's policies, as they have currently been practized, have failed spectacularly. Who can, after Greece and bailouts, still claim the euro currency, the way it was realized, was a good idea and must be maintained?

Who can still claim that ever increasing deregulation of the banking sector was a good idea, ever since 2008?

As long as the old elites offer no answers to the question how they can maintain their liberal and progressive goals and their idea of a "free society", while correcting past mistakes, but instead just defend the old failed recipies of the past three decades, they'll face massive opposition. And this opposition will throw out the baby with the bathwater if given the chance. They would nost just correct everything that went wrong since the 80s, but they'd question the entire system and threaten very freedom and liberalism at its core.

As long as nobody makes convincing, passionate proposals for a "New Deal" that corrects these mistakes, AND maintains everything that's good about open free societies, the radical opposition to freedom itself will only continue to grow. Until it's too late.

In times when "the system" has failed dramatically, people will either vote for a Hitler or for an FDR. It's now up to all people who value a free, liberal, open society and loathe authoritarianism to make sure it will be an FDR.

 

[PeteEU]

Two perspectives worth reading:

A Bold Choice: Good for Freedom, Good for Growth
Larry Kudlow, CNBC

Britain's Awful Vote May Be a Tipping Point
Sebastian Mallaby, Washington Post

Larry Kudlow is an ass.. a right wing nut job. He was one of those who ignored fully the sub-prime problem only to blame it on democrats and Fannie and Freddie after the crash. He is a hack. Anything he writes and says is utter nationalistic right wing bull****.

 

[Higgins86]

No they were not.



And yet you said English not British.. what about Wales and Northern Ireland.. they just colonies in your eyes?


This is the problem ... the EU has nothing to do with the refugee problem of the last 12 months. It is national policy and governments that are responsible not the EU. The only one that could actually fix the problem would have been the EU, but certain countries like the UK were against the EU getting that power. So we have what we have now.. refugees playing the asylum game by jumping from country to country, and no border controls would not have prevented it... just made it harder and cost more money.

The root problem with the refugee issue is not solved by nationalism, xenophobia and racism... that is what got us into trouble in the first place.


But you had that lol. You could define your own policy on non-EU migration.. you could say no more Australians if you wanted to.. but YOUR government did nothing. You could even control EU migration by just implementing the existing rules! You need to be able to support yourself either by a job or a fat bank account and you need private medical insurance. That is the only way you legally can move to another EU country and that country has every right to kick you out if you dont meet those requirements.. so why the hell does the UK not use those rules?

I stopped reading when you said that the French revolution was not a nationalist movement....:lamo

 

[PeteEU]

IMO, the social imbalance in the EU indeed is a huge problem, maybe even the crucial problem. The dominant ideology in Europe/the West in the past three decades, the ideology of ever increasing open markets, deregulation (especially of the finance sector), privatization and "trickle down" promises -- the "neoliberal" ideology (does that term exist in the US, too?) -- that often refers to Thatcher and Reagan, has created many losers.

I dont disagree per say on the social imbalance point, but that social imbalance was in fact far worse before we got open markets and so on. Trickle down promises has never really been an European thing.. we have done things differently and our own way. However we have also adopted some of the failed US "Reagan" policies that are causing some of our problems and of course we have our left wing socialist legacy to deal with as well.

And these losers of this particular kind of progress now angrily blame everything they associate with this ideology: Not just internationalistic institutions such as UN and EU, free trade agreements and so on -- but also immigration, non-whites in general, and progressive ideas such as gender mainstreaming or anti-racism. It all merges into a kind of anti-system-ideology in a harsh backlash.

To be fair, it is more the "scape goat" theory. People tend to blame the different and those they dont understand. Hitler blamed the Jews because people did not understand them and had centuries of bigatory behind them. People blame the EU because they dont understand it. People blame migrants because they look, speak and act differently. People blame non-whites because they stick out... and so on and so on.

The EU's policies, as they have currently been practized, have failed spectacularly. Who can, after Greece and bailouts, still claim the euro currency, the way it was realized, was a good idea and must be maintained?

See here comes a good example. The Greek situation was not an EU fault. It was the Greeks. Was it the Euros fault that the Greeks lied? Of course not, but because people dont undestand currency in general and listen to blowheart speculating economists with a political agenda, then it is far easier to blame the Euro or EU for the problems of the Greek people and nation. Lets put it this way.. had Greece not been in the Euro, then what they did would have caused a similar problem if not worse, because no one would have wanted to help them out due to their history.

Who can still claim that ever increasing deregulation of the banking sector was a good idea, ever since 2008?

Again, not an EU thing. Banking was a national issue until they changed that on EU level a couple of years ago. You can say that it was a major fault of the design of the EURO and I would agree, but again the reason it was designed like this was because of the national governments wishes.

As for banking regulation.. the one entity that has been pushing for stricter banking regulation even before the crash was the EU. They warned of the issues plenty of times, but were ignored. The reason was that the national governments with the UK in front, did not want the EU to regulate their banking sectors because of a "competitive issue".

'In times when "the system" has failed dramatically, people will either vote for a Hitler or for an FDR. It's now up to all people who value a free, liberal, open society and loathe authoritarianism to make sure it will be an FDR.

Yes and history repeats it self. The "elites" as you call them need to wake up, but it is hard when many of them are stuck in the past. Just look at the Brexit.. that had more to do with a civil war in the Tory party than the EU it self... people we just conned to think it was. We already know now, that these elites wont curb immigration drastically, give 350 million extra to the NHS or even start the divorce before their own political futures in the Tory party have been solved... I mean come on... talk about the "old world elitists"..

 

[PeteEU]

I stopped reading when you said that the French revolution was not a nationalist movement....:lamo

Then define your version of nationalist.. because from what I use is the dictionary definition... feeling superior over other nations and peoples. What the French revolution was, was a revolt against the elite because of the poverty of the masses. Had nothing to do with feeling superior over other nations or peoples... they were too busy not starving to death.

 

[Chagos]

I stopped reading when you said that the French revolution was not a nationalist movement....:lamo

I'd say it generated nationalism for the sake of its own sustenance.

Question is was that nationalism civic or ethnic?????

 

[Higgins86]

Then define your version of nationalist.. because from what I use is the dictionary definition... feeling superior over other nations and peoples. What the French revolution was, was a revolt against the elite because of the poverty of the masses. Had nothing to do with feeling superior over other nations or peoples... they were too busy not starving to death.

"Nationalism is a shared group feeling in the significance of a geographical and sometimes demographic region seeking independence for its culture that holds that group together"

The problem you have Pete is that you automatically associate Nationalists with the far right.

 

[German guy]

I dont disagree per say on the social imbalance point, but that social imbalance was in fact far worse before we got open markets and so on. Trickle down promises has never really been an European thing.. we have done things differently and our own way. However we have also adopted some of the failed US "Reagan" policies that are causing some of our problems and of course we have our left wing socialist legacy to deal with as well.



To be fair, it is more the "scape goat" theory. People tend to blame the different and those they dont understand. Hitler blamed the Jews because people did not understand them and had centuries of bigatory behind them. People blame the EU because they dont understand it. People blame migrants because they look, speak and act differently. People blame non-whites because they stick out... and so on and so on.



See here comes a good example. The Greek situation was not an EU fault. It was the Greeks. Was it the Euros fault that the Greeks lied? Of course not, but because people dont undestand currency in general and listen to blowheart speculating economists with a political agenda, then it is far easier to blame the Euro or EU for the problems of the Greek people and nation. Lets put it this way.. had Greece not been in the Euro, then what they did would have caused a similar problem if not worse, because no one would have wanted to help them out due to their history.



Again, not an EU thing. Banking was a national issue until they changed that on EU level a couple of years ago. You can say that it was a major fault of the design of the EURO and I would agree, but again the reason it was designed like this was because of the national governments wishes.

As for banking regulation.. the one entity that has been pushing for stricter banking regulation even before the crash was the EU. They warned of the issues plenty of times, but were ignored. The reason was that the national governments with the UK in front, did not want the EU to regulate their banking sectors because of a "competitive issue".



Yes and history repeats it self. The "elites" as you call them need to wake up, but it is hard when many of them are stuck in the past. Just look at the Brexit.. that had more to do with a civil war in the Tory party than the EU it self... people we just conned to think it was. We already know now, that these elites wont curb immigration drastically, give 350 million extra to the NHS or even start the divorce before their own political futures in the Tory party have been solved... I mean come on... talk about the "old world elitists"..

I doesn't matter who is really to blame. That question is irrelevant now.

Many people just scapegoat when they're angry, nothing will change that. It has to be factored in.

Pointing the fingers at the right-wing populists and neo-nationalists won't change a thing. Except perhaps become free advertizement for them.

Point being, many people are angry and blame the entire "system". Effective ways have to be found to take away the reasons for their anger, NOW, or scapegoats will burn.

 

[iguanaman]

- We can finally put ourselves first
- We can set our own course.
- Finally free of the EU bureaucrats and the endless red tape from Brussels.
- A huge amount of people within the EU are unhappy with the current situation. This could be the catalyst that encourages other countries to do the same. In my opinion the EU experiment has failed. It has no clear message on major issues, the ECB has struggled to revive the economy and smaller nations within the EU have lost their identity.
- In the years since the War England has struggled with her own identity. I think this is a clear statement from the English people that they are fed up of being overlooked, Be it Europe, Scotland or big bank etc. We want to control our future and we want to be heard.

Why do you blame the E.U. for the mistakes of your Conservative Govt.? The world knows most of your economic woes were caused by austerity imposed by your parliament. The last thing a weak economy needs is more weakness. How "empowered" will you feel when Scotland and N. Ireland have left the kingdom? I think we have said good bye to England as a major power and are left with a minor State who is at the mercy of whatever the E.U. decides. You have no input at the E.U. anymore, good luck with that.

 

[PeteEU]

"Nationalism is a shared group feeling in the significance of a geographical and sometimes demographic region seeking independence for its culture that holds that group together"

The problem you have Pete is that you automatically associate Nationalists with the far right.

No...

an extreme form of patriotism marked by a feeling of superiority over other countries.

That is nationalism.

And it has nothing to do with the far right per say. The Soviets were Nationalist as well.. It is when you state that your nation or peoples is some how superior to everyone else and use that feeling to drive political discourse and gain political power.

While your definition of nationalism is technically correct, it is also the irrelevant one. Why? Because by this definition every person is a nationalist.... I am proud of my country and hence I am a nationalist by your definition. That is quite normal. The problem is when I say "I am proud of my country and Danes are superior to everyone else"... then we are in real dangerous nationalism.

Regardless, the French revolution has nothing to do with nationalism, even by your own definition lol. The French Royals were as French as those that revolted against them... so they were of the same national group, demographic group and cultural group and did not want independence.

 

[Higgins86]

Why do you blame the E.U. for the mistakes of your Conservative Govt.? The world knows most of your economic woes were caused by austerity imposed by your parliament. The last thing a weak economy needs is more weakness. How "empowered" will you feel when Scotland and N. Ireland have left the kingdom? I think we have said good bye to England as a major power and became a minor State who is at the mercy of whatever the E.U. decides. You have no input at the E.U. anymore.

The EU is dominated by Germany and France who in turn have most of the minor states in their back pocket, our "infulence" was always minimal and our realtionship with the EU was always a rocky one. Our recovery economically has been slow but this move allows us to seek other avenues whilst maintaining a decent financial relationship with the EU. Despite what certain posters on here say the EU needs us desperatley as their own growth has been worse than ours, this is why Germany is trying to get everyone to play nice. Merkel just today saying " no need to be nasty".
As for Scotland and possibly Northern Ireland leaving it is what it is. Enjoy the Euro I hear its doing great :roll: