Brent Bozell On Voter ID: "The Only Thing That's Being Repressed Is People Cheating

[pbrauer]

Re: Brent Bozell On Voter ID: "The Only Thing That's Being Repressed Is People Cheati

Can you explain to me how giving to everybody a state issued ID, paid for from the budget, a cheap plastic card, replaced every 10 years starting from 14, is going to suppress liberals and minorities and help the GOP. And i mean explain it. Don't do what James D Hill does, and that's just repeat the same rhetoric. I mean explain it like it makes sense.

In the video Brent Bozell said the only thing being repressed are the people cheating, however there isn't a significant number of people cheating and there are severe penalties who are caught cheating.

Why should a person who has voted all their lives now have to do anything extra in order to vote? Even if a voter ID card is free, it still a hassle to get all of the proper documentation and getting to the place where they are issued. It may not deter them from voting, but it very well discourage them. That's what the GOP is counting on.

A person needs to prove they are a legal citizen of the U.S. and a resident of the state where they live in order to vote. This should be done at the time they register to vote. When they vote their signature is all that should be required.

Photo ID is a solution to a non existent problem.

 

[pbrauer]

Re: Brent Bozell On Voter ID: "The Only Thing That's Being Repressed Is People Cheati

Requiring someone to have an ID to purchase a gun is unconstitutional as well. Do you object to that, or is that one of those "oh, that isn't so bad" things?

This thread is about voting, not guns.

 

[rocket88]

Re: Brent Bozell On Voter ID: "The Only Thing That's Being Repressed Is People Cheati

You have not proven that it is unconstitutional to prove identity or residency in order to vote either. Strange how this becomes an issue in only red/southern states, while no huge outcry occured when the state of Indiana did the exact same thing (strict use of a valid, state issued, photo ID) in 2005.

So are you pro-ID or anti-ID? Either it's good or it's not. You can't say "We should have it to vote, but not to buy guns" anymore than you can say the converse.

I don't even have a problem with requiring ID, it's just that I think those laws will prevent as much fraud as the gun control laws prevent shootings. We're heading down the exact same slippery slope. What will happen is that they'll realize there's still fraud and create more and more restrictions on who can vote, what type of votes you're allowed to cast and so on.

 

[rocket88]

Re: Brent Bozell On Voter ID: "The Only Thing That's Being Repressed Is People Cheati

In the video Brent Bozell said the only thing being repressed are the people cheating, however there isn't a significant number of people cheating and there are severe penalties who are caught cheating.

Why should a person who has voted all their lives now have to do anything extra in order to vote? Even if a voter ID card is free, it still a hassle to get all of the proper documentation and getting to the place where they are issued. It may not deter them from voting, but it very well discourage them. That's what the GOP is counting on.

A person needs to prove they are a legal citizen of the U.S. and a resident of the state where they live in order to vote. This should be done at the time they register to vote. When they vote their signature is all that should be required.

Photo ID is a solution to a non existent problem.

You're missing that Bozell is a shill of the GOP, so he's going to say what he's told to say.

 

[ttwtt78640]

Re: Brent Bozell On Voter ID: "The Only Thing That's Being Repressed Is People Cheati

In the video Brent Bozell said the only thing being repressed are the people cheating, however there isn't a significant number of people cheating and there are severe penalties who are caught cheating.

Why should a person who has voted all their lives now have to do anything extra in order to vote? Even if a voter ID card is free, it still a hassle to get all of the proper documentation and getting to the place where they are issued. It may not deter them from voting, but it very well discourage them. That's what the GOP is counting on.

A person needs to prove they are a legal citizen of the U.S. and a resident of the state where they live in order to vote. This should be done at the time they register to vote. When they vote their signature is all that should be required.

Photo ID is a solution to a non existent problem.

Without positive verification of who is voting as who how do you detect in person voter fraud? That is like saying that shoplifting is not a problem since the few that get caught are punished severely.

Shoplifting Information and Statistics

 

[washunut]

Re: Brent Bozell On Voter ID: "The Only Thing That's Being Repressed Is People Cheati

You're missing that Bozell is a shill of the GOP, so he's going to say what he's told to say.

Not sure what this is really all about. I live in one of the bluest of blue states. Every elected official in Washington is a Democrat. BTW we have to show ID when we vote as do people in most states.

Never felt it was an imposition, just something we had to do.

Is this true indignation I am reading here about showing ID, or is this just another phoney issue to distract from the fact we can't get anything of substance done?

 

[rocket88]

Re: Brent Bozell On Voter ID: "The Only Thing That's Being Repressed Is People Cheati

Not sure what this is really all about. I live in one of the bluest of blue states. Every elected official in Washington is a Democrat. BTW we have to show ID when we vote as do people in most states.

Never felt it was an imposition, just something we had to do.

Is this true indignation I am reading here about showing ID, or is this just another phoney issue to distract from the fact we can't get anything of substance done?

The point is that there's no use in getting outraged over the crap that Bozell says. It's easy to predict what he'll say if you just pay attention to what the official party line of the GOP is.

 

[ttwtt78640]

Re: Brent Bozell On Voter ID: "The Only Thing That's Being Repressed Is People Cheati

So are you pro-ID or anti-ID? Either it's good or it's not. You can't say "We should have it to vote, but not to buy guns" anymore than you can say the converse.

I don't even have a problem with requiring ID, it's just that I think those laws will prevent as much fraud as the gun control laws prevent shootings. We're heading down the exact same slippery slope. What will happen is that they'll realize there's still fraud and create more and more restrictions on who can vote, what type of votes you're allowed to cast and so on.

I am simply stating that ID being required, in general, is a good idea. If it is a good idea to ensure that gun sales are not made to known criminals, or to ensure that checks are cashed only by the intended payee, then its also a good idea that voting is properly limitted - to only adult U.S. citizens, residents of the distrct/state and limitted to casting one ballot in any given election. To say that voting fraud is not widespread (because few are actually caught doing it), yet having no way to know who is voting as who, or how many times, is silly. If a student (or a "snowbird" retiree) can now vote in both the district/state of their school (winter "home") and as an absentee in their home district/state then that poses a problem.

 

[Rainman05]

Re: Brent Bozell On Voter ID: "The Only Thing That's Being Repressed Is People Cheati

If the state ID is free and not a undue burden to get, then thats fine. But that isn't the case in many of those states with new voter ID laws. Especially if you don't have a car or internet access or a birth certificate. Many poor people don't have cars or internet access and if they were born at home then it likely they don't have a birth certificate either and many poor blacks were born at home. The burden and fees to get a birth certificate in order to get a state issued ID in order to vote is an undue burden and probably unconstitutional since there are a lot fees required to get a birth certificate in order to get an ID in order to vote.

In the video Brent Bozell said the only thing being repressed are the people cheating, however there isn't a significant number of people cheating and there are severe penalties who are caught cheating.

Why should a person who has voted all their lives now have to do anything extra in order to vote? Even if a voter ID card is free, it still a hassle to get all of the proper documentation and getting to the place where they are issued. It may not deter them from voting, but it very well discourage them. That's what the GOP is counting on.

A person needs to prove they are a legal citizen of the U.S. and a resident of the state where they live in order to vote. This should be done at the time they register to vote. When they vote their signature is all that should be required.

Photo ID is a solution to a non existent problem.

Are you kidding me? You're 14, you have a birthday, you go to the police station or the city hall, get your photo taken and then you're handed out a plastic thingy with your information and photo on it. You carry it around as your state issued ID. Then every 10 or so, you go and change it.
You don't make this optional, you make it mandatory. You need to carry an ID card on you. Look in Europe, there is no country that doesn't have ID cards issued in the manner I've spoken. There is no documentation needed to get, it's all already there. All you need is to take a photo.

It literally discourages nobody or disenfranchized anybody.

 

[rocket88]

Re: Brent Bozell On Voter ID: "The Only Thing That's Being Repressed Is People Cheati

I am simply stating that ID being required, in general, is a good idea. If it is a good idea to ensure that gun sales are not made to known criminals, or to ensure that checks are cashed only by the intended payee, then its also a good idea that voting is properly limitted - to only adult U.S. citizens, residents of the distrct/state and limitted to casting one ballot in any given election. To say that voting fraud is not widespread (because few are actually caught doing it), yet having no way to know who is voting as who, or how many times, is silly. If a student (or a "snowbird" retiree) can now vote in both the district/state of their school (winter "home") and as an absentee in their home district/state then that poses a problem.

I don't necessarily have a problem with a student or a snowbird voting in both local elections. Why shouldn't a "part time" resident have some say in how the town is run where they live half of the year?

But I don't see how requiring ID would prevent that anyway, depending on the laws of the state for how residency is determined. 1 or 2 votes in different states is unlikely to change the outcome of the election anyway. Nobody "snowbirds" in the same state. I've never heard anyone say "Well, northern Minnesota is too cold, so I spend the winter in central Minnesota" (though the weather can be quite different in different parts of Minnesota).

 

[ttwtt78640]

Re: Brent Bozell On Voter ID: "The Only Thing That's Being Repressed Is People Cheati

I don't necessarily have a problem with a student or a snowbird voting in both local elections. Why shouldn't a "part time" resident have some say in how the town is run where they live half of the year?

But I don't see how requiring ID would prevent that anyway, depending on the laws of the state for how residency is determined. 1 or 2 votes in different states is unlikely to change the outcome of the election anyway. Nobody "snowbirds" in the same state. I've never heard anyone say "Well, northern Minnesota is too cold, so I spend the winter in central Minnesota" (though the weather can be quite different in different parts of Minnesota).

Let's leave the local "multiple" represetation out for now. Legally you can cast ballots for (at most) 3 federal candidates; your distrct's House representative, your state's Senator and the POTUS (not all are running in every, 2 year, election cycle). If you can vote in two states then that gives you (up to) 6 votes (double the representation that you are legally due). Every "extra" vote can effectively cancel out one "regular" vote, so it is not as "harmless" as you pretend it to be.

 

[rocket88]

Re: Brent Bozell On Voter ID: "The Only Thing That's Being Repressed Is People Cheati

Let's leave the local "multiple" represetation out for now. Legally you can cast ballots for (at most) 3 federal candidates; your distrct's House representative, your state's Senator and the POTUS (not all are running in every, 2 year, election cycle). If you can vote in two states then that gives you (up to) 6 votes (double the representation that you are legally due). Every "extra" vote can effectively cancel out one "regular" vote, so it is not as "harmless" as you pretend it to be.

I see your point, but none of those people, except a Presidential candidate, are running in two different districts or states, and the way the Presidential vote gets filtered through the Electoral College, it only really counts if you engage in a multi-state fraud ring meant to rig the election.

I honestly believe that both parties are basically already doing that. So when one party wants to clamp down and place certain restrictions, it tells me that they've already figured out how to put in the fix under that system.

When you look back at Presidents over the past 60 years (back to 1952), we've had 8 years of a Republican (Eisenhower), followed by 8 years of a Democrat (Kennedy/Johnson), followed by 8 years of Republican (Nixon/Ford), followed by 4 years of a Democrat (Carter), followed by 12 years of a Republican (Reagan/Bush I), then 8 years Dem (Clinton), 8 years Rep (Bush II), and now 8 years Dem (Obama). Basically every 8 years, with the exception of Reagan/Bush, we switch between the parties. That doesn't make me think it's skewed to either side. Go back even further and 20 years of Dem (FDR/Truman) was preceded by 12 years of Rep (Harding/Coolidge/Hoover), 8 years of Dem (Wilson), and 12 years of Rep (McKinley/TR/Taft). We haven't had anything close to a long term one-party stranglehold on power in almost 200 years.

 

[yobarnacle]

Re: Brent Bozell On Voter ID: "The Only Thing That's Being Repressed Is People Cheati

The issue isn't would a landslide vote be steerable by voter fraud.

Many presidential elections have been VERY close. a few thousand illegal votes can, and I believe have, perverted elections.

Florida is a winner take all 27 electoral votes state.

And Florida is nearly 50/50 dem/rep .

So if Florida were "stolen" (and it has been tried)
how many smaller states electoral votes would be necessary to overcome the damage?
Florida alone provides 1/10 the electoral votes needed to win. 270 votes.

Voter IDs are needed, and most americans WANT them.


the "prove they are needed" meme is NOT pertinent. IDs are needed and wanted. The PEOPLE say so!


File:Choropath Map 2012a.svg - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Moot]

Re: Brent Bozell On Voter ID: "The Only Thing That's Being Repressed Is People Cheati

If the gov't is not supplying you a free record of your birth is that infringing upon your right to vote? A state issued, photo ID costs about $6/year in Texas, and is free to those that can show economic hardship. About Those Free Voter ID Cards | The Texas Tribune

If you have to prove you're poor in order to get a free state ID and then you either get a job or it's discovered after you vote that you make a few dollars over the poverty threshold, then are you commiting voter fraud?

You have not proven that it is unconstitutional to prove identity or residency in order to vote either. Strange how this becomes an issue in only red/southern states, while no huge outcry occured when the state of Indiana did the exact same thing (strict use of a valid, state issued, photo ID) in 2005.

What other reason would someone need to show a birth certificate if not to get an ID? So if you have to pay a lot of fees and undue burden to get a birth certificate in order to get a state issued ID in order to vote, then why isn't that considered a poll tax?

Without positive verification of who is voting as who how do you detect in person voter fraud? That is like saying that shoplifting is not a problem since the few that get caught are punished severely.

Shoplifting Information and Statistics

What little voter fraud there is seems to be committed mostly through absentee voting. So doesn't it strike you as odd that none of the states with new voter laws address, hinder or prevent absentee voting? So tell me, how does voter ID prevent voter fraud with absentee voting?

Even more odd is that those caught committing "real" voter fraud are over whelmingly republicans...high profile republicans at that....

The BRAD BLOG : Another Case of OH Voter Fraud that Would Not Have Been Deterred by GOP Photo ID Restrictions

 

[ecofarm]

Re: Brent Bozell On Voter ID: "The Only Thing That's Being Repressed Is People Cheati

This thread is about voting, not guns.

Moot brought up the constitution. I brought up the broad and absolutist interpretation of it in regard to liberals and a voter ID compared to the constitution-trashing position on guns of liberals. If you don't like that... too bad.

 

[ecofarm]

Re: Brent Bozell On Voter ID: "The Only Thing That's Being Repressed Is People Cheati

Then why are the most rabid gun rights posters pro voter ID? You'd think they'd be consistent.

Very few people argue for no ID in a gun purchase. They accept that requiring an ID is not so much of a constitutional violation. They also accept that requiring an ID for voting is a reasonable measure. I was making the argument to prove a point.

 

[Moot]

Re: Brent Bozell On Voter ID: "The Only Thing That's Being Repressed Is People Cheati

Are you kidding me? You're 14, you have a birthday, you go to the police station or the city hall, get your photo taken and then you're handed out a plastic thingy with your information and photo on it. You carry it around as your state issued ID. Then every 10 or so, you go and change it.
You don't make this optional, you make it mandatory. You need to carry an ID card on you. Look in Europe, there is no country that doesn't have ID cards issued in the manner I've spoken. There is no documentation needed to get, it's all already there. All you need is to take a photo.

It literally discourages nobody or disenfranchized anybody.

Yes, look at Europe...all the EU socialist countries require a "national" ID and they can use it in all the other EU countries. But thats not what the states are doing. They're making 'out of state ID' illegal for voting in national elections. And as for mandatory ID, then why not mandatory voting or mandatory military service....or mandatory health insurance?

The voting controversy problem could probably eliminated or least reduced if congress passed a voting right amendment that guarentees the right to vote like the first amendment guarentees free speech...or....they separate the national election from the state and local election and let the federal goverment have control over the national elections and each state have authority over their local elections....or the federal government standardizes the voting election system so that all the states election systems are the same.

 

[Rainman05]

Re: Brent Bozell On Voter ID: "The Only Thing That's Being Repressed Is People Cheati

Yes, look at Europe...all the EU socialist countries require a "national" ID and they can use it in all the other EU countries. But thats not what the states are doing. They're making 'out of state ID' illegal for voting in national elections. And as for mandatory ID, then why not mandatory voting or mandatory military service....or mandatory health insurance?

The voting controversy problem could probably eliminated or least reduced if congress passed a voting right amendment that guarentees the right to vote like the first amendment guarentees free speech...or....they separate the national election from the state and local election and let the federal goverment have control over the national elections and each state have authority over their local elections....or the federal government standardizes the voting election system so that all the states election systems are the same.

Mandatory voter ID is very easy to implement. Mandatory voting exists in countries like Australia, but it's really a good and bad system and the draft has been removed from the lawbook because it doesn't help create the military of the future as for mandatory health insurance, there's a catch. universal healthcare is good, universal insurance requirement is bad.


I'm not saying the way voter ID laws are proposed are good. I can't possibly know all the variations in all the states that propose or have implemented such laws. I am just saying how they should be done properly.

either state-issued ID as I presented, at the age of 14 (and every 10 years after), paid for from the budget, no additional taxes, or a national issued ID. So either 50 variants or 1 variant. But still, ID cards are a good idea.

 

[ecofarm]

Re: Brent Bozell On Voter ID: "The Only Thing That's Being Repressed Is People Cheati

You're the one who thinks the government has to manufacture guns so you can have access to exercise your right to buy and own one.

No, I don't. Unlike you, I understand that freedom from government intervention does not mean that the government is supposed to provide stuff. Do you not understand the constitution? Freedom does not equal the government providing you stuff.

"Shall not infringe", not "shall provide".

This is simple. Why are you confused.

 

[ecofarm]

Re: Brent Bozell On Voter ID: "The Only Thing That's Being Repressed Is People Cheati

There is a 24th amendment against poll taxing the right to vote.

So, requiring ID is a poll tax. But requiring background checks and registration is NOT an infringement?

You are broad and absolute about voting, but you trample the constitution in regard to guns. So spare us the constitutional self-righteousness, it's phoney. Using the constitution as it fits a partisan agenda is crap, it's pretending to understand and respect the constitution.

Consistency, your argument has none.

 

[nota bene]

Re: Brent Bozell On Voter ID: "The Only Thing That's Being Repressed Is People Cheati

You're missing that Bozell is a shill of the GOP, so he's going to say what he's told to say.

I can surely understand your not liking/agreeing with Bozell's politics, but I laughed when I read "shill." Much more likely that GOP members with good sense are going to listen to Bozell rather than his shilling for the GOP. You realize that he's William F. Buckley's nephew, right? :lol:

 

[Grant]

Re: Brent Bozell On Voter ID: "The Only Thing That's Being Repressed Is People Cheati

No, I don't. Unlike you, I understand that freedom from government intervention does not mean that the government is supposed to provide stuff. Do you not understand the constitution? Freedom does not equal the government providing you stuff.

"Shall not infringe", not "shall provide".

This is simple. Why are you confused.

That's why the counter argument is all over the map. It is impossible for them to stick to Voter ID laws so they drift off into other territories and soon they become the subject of debate.

 

[rocket88]

Re: Brent Bozell On Voter ID: "The Only Thing That's Being Repressed Is People Cheati

I can surely understand your not liking/agreeing with Bozell's politics, but I laughed when I read "shill." Much more likely that GOP members with good sense are going to listen to Bozell rather than his shilling for the GOP. You realize that he's William F. Buckley's nephew, right? :lol:

Didn't know that about him.

 

[Moot]

Re: Brent Bozell On Voter ID: "The Only Thing That's Being Repressed Is People Cheati

No, I don't. Unlike you, I understand that freedom from government intervention does not mean that the government is supposed to provide stuff. Do you not understand the constitution? Freedom does not equal the government providing you stuff.

"Shall not infringe", not "shall provide".

This is simple. Why are you confused.

Unlike you, I do understand the constitution and "to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed" does not mean the government can't require you to get an ID or get a background check in order to "buy" a gun.

So, requiring ID is a poll tax. But requiring background checks and registration is NOT an infringement?

There isn't an amendment that says the government can't require a tax in order to buy gun, like there is for voting.

You are broad and absolute about voting, but you trample the constitution in regard to guns. So spare us the constitutional self-righteousness, it's phoney. Using the constitution as it fits a partisan agenda is crap, it's pretending to understand and respect the constitution. Consistency, your argument has none.

Funny, I was going to say the same about you.

 

[yobarnacle]

Re: Brent Bozell On Voter ID: "The Only Thing That's Being Repressed Is People Cheati

Yes, look at Europe...all the EU socialist countries require a "national" ID and they can use it in all the other EU countries. But thats not what the states are doing. They're making 'out of state ID' illegal for voting in national elections. And as for mandatory ID, then why not mandatory voting or mandatory military service....or mandatory health insurance?

The voting controversy problem could probably eliminated or least reduced if congress passed a voting right amendment that guarentees the right to vote like the first amendment guarentees free speech...or....they separate the national election from the state and local election and let the federal goverment have control over the national elections and each state have authority over their local elections....or the federal government standardizes the voting election system so that all the states election systems are the same.

That would require a constitutional amendment and ratification by the states. Not only is it a bad idea, it's a hopeless one. Who believes the states will voluntarily surrender one of their FEW remaining prerogatives to the unconstitutional MASSIVE fed?