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Bremerton, Washington letter carrier is refusing to enter pot shops to deliver mail

Absentglare

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Re: Bremerton, Washington letter carrier is refusing to enter pot shops to deliver ma

Prove that he/she was delaying the mail by refusing to walk into the shop. That is most certainly not a requirement. I could easily say that by requiring me to have a mailbox at the top of the road rather delivering directly to my house the post office is delaying my mail if that's the only thing required under that chapter. There is nothing that requires a mail carrier to risk their health to deliver the mail, even temporarily while waiting for a decision.


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Lol okay fine then :

"On another occasion, the camera captured the carrier handing off the mail to a customer who was leaving the store.

"She asked the customer to bring it inside," says Hartwell."

Bremerton pot businesses: Letter carrier won't deliver our mail | KOMO

You can't seriously argue that it's acceptable to deliver someone's mail to a stranger.
 

Absentglare

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Re: Bremerton, Washington letter carrier is refusing to enter pot shops to deliver ma

You do realize another risk from marijuana is breathing in mold right? There is no actual process in place to certify marijuana as mold free. It's considered legitimate enough for first responders to be recommended to wear respiratory protection if they respond to an indoor pot growing operation/house.


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If vague suspicion of possible exposure to mold could justify neglecting this basic duty, no mail would be delivered.

Marijuana should be stored in sealed containers. They are not allowed to grow or process marijuana at the dispensaries themselves.

And show the policy that says they have to deliver the mail to a business owner inside their business.


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There is nothing saying that a mail carrier can use an unlocked door as an excuse to refuse to deliver mail, either.
 

roguenuke

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Lol okay fine then :

"On another occasion, the camera captured the carrier handing off the mail to a customer who was leaving the store.

"She asked the customer to bring it inside," says Hartwell."

Bremerton pot businesses: Letter carrier won't deliver our mail | KOMO

You can't seriously argue that it's acceptable to deliver someone's mail to a stranger.

No it's not acceptable to hand it to a customer. It is acceptable to deliver it to an employee though and there is still no reason she should have to go inside the shop. That is not a required part of delivering the mail. They are not your butlers.

As for the customer thing though, it doesn't look like she even knew the person was a customer and not an employee. The handoff in the video was immediate.


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Absentglare

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Re: Bremerton, Washington letter carrier is refusing to enter pot shops to deliver ma

No it's not acceptable to hand it to a customer. It is acceptable to deliver it to an employee though and there is still no reason she should have to go inside the shop. That is not a required part of delivering the mail. They are not your butlers.

As for the customer thing though, it doesn't look like she even knew the person was a customer and not an employee. The handoff in the video was immediate.


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She is the mail carrier. She is responsible for ensuring that the mail is delivered to the correct recipient. Supposedly, she asked the customer to bring the mail inside, and the customer reluctantly did so.

"As a test, she showed evidence of a registered letter she sent to herself at the Pacific Cannabis' location on Callow Avenue. For delivery to be complete, the postal carrier must deliver it to the person who must sign to receive it.

Hartwell says it was never delivered. She complained to the post office."

Of course, the USPS, itself, is firmly on the side of the business :

"In a statement, Public Information Officer Ernie Swanson says, "The Postal Service apologizes for the customer's inconvenience. Mail service is being provided to the businesses.""
 

roguenuke

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Re: Bremerton, Washington letter carrier is refusing to enter pot shops to deliver ma

She is the mail carrier. She is responsible for ensuring that the mail is delivered to the correct recipient. Supposedly, she asked the customer to bring the mail inside, and the customer reluctantly did so.

"As a test, she showed evidence of a registered letter she sent to herself at the Pacific Cannabis' location on Callow Avenue. For delivery to be complete, the postal carrier must deliver it to the person who must sign to receive it.

Hartwell says it was never delivered. She complained to the post office."

Of course, the USPS, itself, is firmly on the side of the business :

"In a statement, Public Information Officer Ernie Swanson says, "The Postal Service apologizes for the customer's inconvenience. Mail service is being provided to the businesses.""

No it didn't say that only that their mail is being delivered. It may be that she has to wait a certain amount of time for them to come out and pick up the mail.

We only have her side of the story. Did she refuse to come out to the mail carrier to sign for the letter? If so, that's on her. Doesn't matter what she was doing.

You can see her hand the package to the supposed customer in the video. Less than a second passes. It easily looks like she could have thought that the customer was an employee or even that an employee may have asked the customer to get the package.


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Re: Bremerton, Washington letter carrier is refusing to enter pot shops to deliver ma

No it didn't say that only that their mail is being delivered. It may be that she has to wait a certain amount of time for them to come out and pick up the mail.

We only have her side of the story. Did she refuse to come out to the mail carrier to sign for the letter? If so, that's on her. Doesn't matter what she was doing.

You can see her hand the package to the supposed customer in the video. Less than a second passes. It easily looks like she could have thought that the customer was an employee or even that an employee may have asked the customer to get the package.


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The mail carrier is not allowed to make up new USPS policies on-the-fly. This is a form of vigilantism. Use the the law to change policies, don't take matters into your own hands.

Messing with the mail is a serious crime. It doesn't matter what excuse the mail carrier might come up with, they are entrusted to ensure that the mail arrives at the appropriate destination and handing it off to a random person leaving a building absolutely does not qualify.
 

EMNofSeattle

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Re: Bremerton, Washington letter carrier is refusing to enter pot shops to deliver ma

Irrelevant. The porn shop wasn't legally compelled to provide an external mailbox and this marijuana shop has no such obligation.

Like it or not, these are legitimate businesses now. Even if a DEA raid hit the moment the postal worker entered, i don't see how anyone could possibly create a case against the postal worker who was only there delivering mail. The postal worker absolutely did not commit any crime by delivering mail, in fact, i explained that they have committed a crime by their illegal protest of not delivering/delaying the delivery of mail.
They are not legitimate businesses, they are criminal enterprises under the controlled substances act, stop BSing everyone
 

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Re: Bremerton, Washington letter carrier is refusing to enter pot shops to deliver ma

Lol okay fine then :

"On another occasion, the camera captured the carrier handing off the mail to a customer who was leaving the store.

"She asked the customer to bring it inside," says Hartwell."

Bremerton pot businesses: Letter carrier won't deliver our mail | KOMO

You can't seriously argue that it's acceptable to deliver someone's mail to a stranger.
It wasn't delivered to a stranger, it was taken straight to an agent of the business owner and never left her unobstricted sight.
That won't even get past the union, a US attorney won't take that to a grand jury on any planet
 

EMNofSeattle

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Re: Bremerton, Washington letter carrier is refusing to enter pot shops to deliver ma

The mail carrier is not allowed to make up new USPS policies on-the-fly. This is a form of vigilantism. Use the the law to change policies, don't take matters into your own hands.

Messing with the mail is a serious crime. It doesn't matter what excuse the mail carrier might come up with, they are entrusted to ensure that the mail arrives at the appropriate destination and handing it off to a random person leaving a building absolutely does not qualify.

The video has no audio, the customer could have been a cash employee or told the letter carrier they were, who do you think a federal court will believe, a federal employee or a drug dealer?

It is not vigilantism, the mail is being delivered, just not in her preferred manner. We go back to the fact that no law requires inside of business mail service, and that the shop was requested to install a letter box which the owner has refused to do.

So your position is, it is fair to require workers to enter unsafe/illegal enterprises as a requirement of wages
?
 

EMNofSeattle

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Re: Bremerton, Washington letter carrier is refusing to enter pot shops to deliver ma

If vague suspicion of possible exposure to mold could justify neglecting this basic duty, no mail would be delivered.

Marijuana should be stored in sealed containers. They are not allowed to grow or process marijuana at the dispensaries themselves.



There is nothing saying that a mail carrier can use an unlocked door as an excuse to refuse to deliver mail, either.

They're not allowed to operate dispenseries period, so excuse me if I don't trust a criminal to be obeying the letter of the law.
 

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Re: Bremerton, Washington letter carrier is refusing to enter pot shops to deliver ma

They are not legitimate businesses, they are criminal enterprises under the controlled substances act, stop BSing everyone

They're not allowed to operate dispenseries period, so excuse me if I don't trust a criminal to be obeying the letter of the law.

My response to these two is the same: yes, marijuana dispensaries are in a bit of a legal gray-area due to marijuana's federal schedule I status. This is a red herring because no prosecutor would prosecute a mail carrier for simply delivering mail.

As far as USPS is concerned, it is a legitimate mail recipient. That's why the USPS spokesperson assured the media that mail service will continue.

It wasn't delivered to a stranger, it was taken straight to an agent of the business owner and never left her unobstricted sight.
That won't even get past the union, a US attorney won't take that to a grand jury on any planet

That doesn't change the fact that the mail carrier is pursuing a change in policy in an inappropriate manner.

Let me be clear- if we change the laws to handle this exception differently, then i would be happy to legally compel this business to comply with the new law. I don't consider this form of protest to be appropriate.

The video has no audio, the customer could have been a cash employee or told the letter carrier they were, who do you think a federal court will believe, a federal employee or a drug dealer?

It is not vigilantism, the mail is being delivered, just not in her preferred manner. We go back to the fact that no law requires inside of business mail service, and that the shop was requested to install a letter box which the owner has refused to do.

So your position is, it is fair to require workers to enter unsafe/illegal enterprises as a requirement of wages
?

I don't care about what a federal court would believe, character assassination is irrelevant here. We are not taking the "drug dealer" (do you call liquor store owners and bar owners "drug dealers" too ?) at their word, we have video evidence of the mail carrier behaving inappropriately.

A request is distinct from a requirement. Can you cite a law that says the post office can spontaneously demand an external mailbox at any time for any reason and discontinue mail service until compliance is met ? I know of no such law, but i am not familiar with the jurisdiction.

I would encourage this type of matter to be settled by the courts and laws, not by public opinion.

What if they had outgoing mail ?
 

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Re: Bremerton, Washington letter carrier is refusing to enter pot shops to deliver ma

My response to these two is the same: yes, marijuana dispensaries are in a bit of a legal gray-area due to marijuana's federal schedule I status. This is a red herring because no prosecutor would prosecute a mail carrier for simply delivering mail.

There is no grey area, it is clearly written that marijuana is illegal under US law, unless Washington seceeded while I was asleep that law applies.

As far as USPS is concerned, it is a legitimate mail recipient. That's why the USPS spokesperson assured the media that mail service will continue.

but has so far not disciplined the carrier.



That doesn't change the fact that the mail carrier is pursuing a change in policy in an inappropriate manner.

I didn't hear her pursuing any policy change, only refusing to enter a building where serious federal crimes are in progress. this lady who runs the pot shop could go to federal prison for 20 years if she were prosecuted.
Let me be clear- if we change the laws to handle this exception differently, then i would be happy to legally compel this business to comply with the new law. I don't consider this form of protest to be appropriate.
I do not believe it to be a protest.

I don't care about what a federal court would believe, character assassination is irrelevant here. We are not taking the "drug dealer" (do you call liquor store owners and bar owners "drug dealers" too ?) at their word, we have video evidence of the mail carrier behaving inappropriately.

Character has nothing to do with it, she makes her money selling and distributing illegal drugs and does nothing to hide it, she should take pride in the label. If you wish to call liquor store owners "drug dealers" be my guest, that doesn't change that liquor is legal when a certain scheme of regulation is followed and MJ is NEVER legal. We have video evidence that she handed some dude a package and it was brought to the store. There is nowhere near enough evidence to charge the postwoman with mail tampering, no sane prosecutor will even take that to a grand jury. they won't take it to a judge, let along trial.
A request is distinct from a requirement. Can you cite a law that says the post office can spontaneously demand an external mailbox at any time for any reason and discontinue mail service until compliance is met ? I know of no such law, but i am not familiar with the jurisdiction.

That would likely be set by policy, not by law. I cannot get mail residentially delivered to my house becuase the property lacks a letter box, I have sent businesses letters that have been returned because the recipient had no letter box. This particular neighborhood is an old one and along with most of Bremerton's central core is a 1910s style medium size town which is why postmen still walk routes and go inside businesses. in most of the country post carriers don't go inside businesses and use letter boxes. and there is precedent, in this very town on this very street there's a pornogrpahy store that a conservative postman wouldn't enter and the post office talked them into installing a mailbox. so if I were this woman's union rep I'd be raising holy he!! and demanding that the postmaster accomodate this postwoman same as the guy who wouldn't deliver to a legal porn shop.

I would encourage this type of matter to be settled by the courts and laws, not by public opinion.

It will probably be settled by union arbitration, if I were the postwoman I'd be calling my union rep like yesterday.

What if they had outgoing mail ?
there's multiple blue boxes on this street, and the post office is a 10 minute drive away.

and btw, I do ALOT of business with the postal service, I easily send as many letters as this MJ shop owner, and I use a post office box, and deposit my mail at the post office. I'm not buying the hardship claim
 
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EMNofSeattle

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Re: Bremerton, Washington letter carrier is refusing to enter pot shops to deliver ma

The USPS has policies on what the requirements are to receive mail.

This lone mail carrier is not allowed to make up their own policies as they go along.

They are allowed to take reasonable precautions to ensure their safety and to not open themselves up to liability however.
 

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Re: Bremerton, Washington letter carrier is refusing to enter pot shops to deliver ma

There is no grey area, it is clearly written that marijuana is illegal under US law, unless Washington seceeded while I was asleep that law applies.



but has so far not disciplined the carrier.





I didn't hear her pursuing any policy change, only refusing to enter a building where serious federal crimes are in progress. this lady who runs the pot shop could go to federal prison for 20 years if she were prosecuted.

I do not believe it to be a protest.



Character has nothing to do with it, she makes her money selling and distributing illegal drugs and does nothing to hide it, she should take pride in the label. If you wish to call liquor store owners "drug dealers" be my guest, that doesn't change that liquor is legal when a certain scheme of regulation is followed and MJ is NEVER legal. We have video evidence that she handed some dude a package and it was brought to the store. There is nowhere near enough evidence to charge the postwoman with mail tampering, no sane prosecutor will even take that to a grand jury. they won't take it to a judge, let along trial.


That would likely be set by policy, not by law. I cannot get mail residentially delivered to my house becuase the property lacks a letter box, I have sent businesses letters that have been returned because the recipient had no letter box. This particular neighborhood is an old one and along with most of Bremerton's central core is a 1910s style medium size town which is why postmen still walk routes and go inside businesses. in most of the country post carriers don't go inside businesses and use letter boxes. and there is precedent, in this very town on this very street there's a pornogrpahy store that a conservative postman wouldn't enter and the post office talked them into installing a mailbox. so if I were this woman's union rep I'd be raising holy he!! and demanding that the postmaster accomodate this postwoman same as the guy who wouldn't deliver to a legal porn shop.



It will probably be settled by union arbitration, if I were the postwoman I'd be calling my union rep like yesterday.

there's multiple blue boxes on this street, and the post office is a 10 minute drive away.

and btw, I do ALOT of business with the postal service, I easily send as many letters as this MJ shop owner, and I use a post office box, and deposit my mail at the post office. I'm not buying the hardship claim

There is a gray area, that's why local and state police can't do anything about it. It was legalized at the state level. I can't believe you didn't know this already ...? Marijuana is legal in the state. That's why they have a store that openly sells marijuana without getting immediately shut down.

You have no way of knowing if they did or did not discipline the mail carrier. All you know is that they didn't announce disciplining the mail carrier, which is good because public employees still deserve basic privacy rights.

Protest : a statement or action expressing disapproval of or objection to something

It is a protest by definition, that fact is trivially true and i am shocked that you would debate that.

I didn't accuse anyone of tampering. It is a fact that it is inappropriate for a mail carrier to shirk their responsibility to deliver the mail to the appropriate address.

The dispensary is not obligated to recognize personal requests as though they are legally compulsory. The mail carrier is legally compelled to deliver mail.
 

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Re: Bremerton, Washington letter carrier is refusing to enter pot shops to deliver ma

They are allowed to take reasonable precautions to ensure their safety and to not open themselves up to liability however.

Which is exactly why "reasonable" should be defined in a court of law instead of by the defendant alone.
 

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Re: Bremerton, Washington letter carrier is refusing to enter pot shops to deliver ma

Which is exactly why "reasonable" should be defined in a court of law instead of by the defendant alone.

There is no defendant here. No crime has been committed.

If my boss tells me to do something that I feel is unsafe I can refuse to do it without first getting a court order
 

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Re: Bremerton, Washington letter carrier is refusing to enter pot shops to deliver ma

There is a gray area, that's why local and state police can't do anything about it. It was legalized at the state level. I can't believe you didn't know this already ...? Marijuana is legal in the state. That's why they have a store that openly sells marijuana without getting immediately shut down.

There is no grey area, local and state police are not obligated to enforce a federal regulator scheme (see Printz v United States) but that does not make a federal crime not a crime. the feds are using prosecutorial discretion. this is not a grey area, it is clearly illegal.

You have no way of knowing if they did or did not discipline the mail carrier. All you know is that they didn't announce disciplining the mail carrier, which is good because public employees still deserve basic privacy rights.

I'll bet you I can find out....

Protest : a statement or action expressing disapproval of or objection to something

Do you have evidence that her refusal to enter is over dissaproval or objection? I voted for legal marijuana and I won't enter those stores, under any circumstances.

It is a protest by definition, that fact is trivially true and i am shocked that you would debate that.

again without knowing her motives you cannot state that as fact.

I didn't accuse anyone of tampering.
Which is why you quoted the mail tampering statute?

It is a fact that it is inappropriate for a mail carrier to shirk their responsibility to deliver the mail to the appropriate address.

No responsibility has been "Shirked" the mail has been delivered, simply not in the manner the purveyor of illegal schedule 1 controlled substances prefers.

The dispensary is not obligated to recognize personal requests as though they are legally compulsory. The mail carrier is legally compelled to deliver mail.

The postal service is also not obligated to deliver mail her prefered way. The postal service has a mandate to make reasonable effort to deliver mail, it is not a blood oath to make sure any particular piece of corrospondence gets delivered exactly how the recipient wants it come hell or high water.
 

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Re: Bremerton, Washington letter carrier is refusing to enter pot shops to deliver ma

I read this story, and I'm on the side of the post office worker, regardless of whatever state licneses this business possesses, those licenses carry the same weight as monopoly money under federal law, should a letter carrier be required to deliver mail to marijuana shops?

Some pot shops not getting mail delivered to stores



oh this gem is great



Still, federal law makes it illegal to distribute controlled substances, and this postman by knowingly facilitating this business that's openly operating in violation of the law could technically be guilty of engaging in a conspiracy to deliver controlled substances, it is not reasonable to expect him to risk prison time to deliver mail inside an operating criminal enterprise (and don't take that as a judgemental term, that is the term "criminal enterprise" used in federal law to describe organized distributors of illegal drugs)

what do you think?

In interest of disclosure, my hometown is the adjacent city of Port Orchard and I took some college in Bremerton and do a good deal of business in this town, This mj shop is in a fairly sketchy neighborhood too. there's a porn shop, payday lenders, a title pawn, three different 2 dollar wok joints, etc. just so you can picture this.
I haven't read the entire thread fyi. That said, why is a federal institution delivering mail to what it considers an illegal business in the first place. Just asking. Did mail carriers have to deliver to illegal drinking establishments during prohibition?

I'm for legalization of mj and for making businesses cater to anyone that isn't breaking the federal law like ssm.
 

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Re: Bremerton, Washington letter carrier is refusing to enter pot shops to deliver ma

I haven't read the entire thread fyi. That said, why is a federal institution delivering mail to what it considers an illegal business in the first place. Just asking. Did mail carriers have to deliver to illegal drinking establishments during prohibition?

I'm for legalization of mj and for making businesses cater to anyone that isn't breaking the federal law like ssm.

I have no idea what the postal service did during prohibition, to me it's really not relevant, as that was over 80 years ago and no one is alive who remembers.

I think marijuana stores are illegal and unsafe businesses, so I will defend anyone's right to enter them. all sorts of health issues, compounded by personal safety issues like all cash business with valuable product likely to be robbed to boot.

not to mention it is technically illegal for these pot businesses to be conducting drug business via the postal service anyway. they're probably sending and recieving product, invoices, paraphanelia, payment etc via the mail, which is illegal separate from the laws on drug possession sale.
 

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Re: Bremerton, Washington letter carrier is refusing to enter pot shops to deliver ma

Federal job in which the place he is delivering to is violating federal laws even if those laws are temporarily not being enforced.


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Has the Feds said that they were going to arrest mail carriers for delivering mail (doing their job) to stores that sell weed?

No, they havent have they? In fact regional Postal Service spokesman Ernie Swanson says that there is no legal problem delivering mail to a pot shop
. And insists that the mail carrier has been instructed to do her job.

Obviously the carrier has a personal issue with the pot shops. I havent found any statements by the mail carrier so, I guess that you were assuming that since its a federal job there must be a feral law issue. The fact is that we dont know the reason for the mail person not doing their job.


"However, Swanson confirmed the Postal Service's policy is to deliver mail to recreational marijuana businesses in the same way it would for any other customer." Some pot shops not getting mail delivered to stores
 

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Re: Bremerton, Washington letter carrier is refusing to enter pot shops to deliver ma

There is no defendant here. No crime has been committed.

If my boss tells me to do something that I feel is unsafe I can refuse to do it without first getting a court order

I already explained why the mail carrier has committed a crime punishable by a fine and/or up to 5 years in prison. I cited the law and everything.

If your refusal ends up breaking a law that can result in a fine and/or up to 5 years in prison, then you can absolutely find yourself defending your behavior in a court of law as a result.
 

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Re: Bremerton, Washington letter carrier is refusing to enter pot shops to deliver ma

I already explained why the mail carrier has committed a crime punishable by a fine and/or up to 5 years in prison. I cited the law and everything.

If your refusal ends up breaking a law that can result in a fine and/or up to 5 years in prison, then you can absolutely find yourself defending your behavior in a court of law as a result.

she didn't violate that law. you and I both know that.

you cited a law that makes it illegal to tamper with mail or purposefully improperly deliver it. if you have probable cause of that you can notify the postal inspection service
https://postalinspectors.uspis.gov/contactus/filecomplaint.aspx

refusal to commit unsafe/illegal acts is not illegal. please cite that law if you're so confident.
 

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There is no grey area, local and state police are not obligated to enforce a federal regulator scheme (see Printz v United States) but that does not make a federal crime not a crime. the feds are using prosecutorial discretion. this is not a grey area, it is clearly illegal.

So you don't know ?

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Washington_Initiative_502

I'll bet you I can find out....

Irrelevant. You cannot claim that you know that the mail carrier faced no discipline. The USPS spokesperson who assured the media that mail service will continue to be provided to that address implies that the postal office is taking action to restore mail service to that address.

Do you have evidence that her refusal to enter is over dissaproval or objection? I voted for legal marijuana and I won't enter those stores, under any circumstances.

Pedantic and irrelevant. She objected to the building, that is why she did not enter. Shall i define "disapproval" to you ?

again without knowing her motives you cannot state that as fact.

I guess i do have to define disapproval for you.

Disapproval : possession or expression of an unfavorable opinion

Which is why you quoted the mail tampering statute?

Ah, you finally said something that's correct. Yes, fine, i am accusing her of mail tampering by the legal definition and i explained, twice now, why her behavior qualifies for the legal definition.

No responsibility has been "Shirked" the mail has been delivered, simply not in the manner the purveyor of illegal schedule 1 controlled substances prefers.

Please familiarize yourself with the case. The owner sent themselves a letter that requires a signature that was never received.

The postal service is also not obligated to deliver mail her prefered way. The postal service has a mandate to make reasonable effort to deliver mail, it is not a blood oath to make sure any particular piece of corrospondence gets delivered exactly how the recipient wants it come hell or high water.

I didn't say it was. I said it was obligated to deliver mail based on the laws and policies that are relevant to the delivery of mail. You seem to think that people can shirk that responsibility for no reason.
 

Absentglare

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Re: Bremerton, Washington letter carrier is refusing to enter pot shops to deliver ma

she didn't violate that law. you and I both know that.

you cited a law that makes it illegal to tamper with mail or purposefully improperly deliver it. if you have probable cause of that you can notify the postal inspection service
https://postalinspectors.uspis.gov/contactus/filecomplaint.aspx

refusal to commit unsafe/illegal acts is not illegal. please cite that law if you're so confident.

Purposefully delivering the mail improperly is exactly what occurred on the video.

Delivering mail per USPS policy is not an illegal act.
 

EMNofSeattle

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Re: Bremerton, Washington letter carrier is refusing to enter pot shops to deliver ma

Purposefully delivering the mail improperly is exactly what occurred on the video.

Delivering mail per USPS policy is not an illegal act.

No it's not. the mail wasn't opened or tampered with, which is the second element of the crime. it was delivered. just not how the pot shop owner would have prefered.
 
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