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Bremerton, Washington letter carrier is refusing to enter pot shops to deliver mail

EMNofSeattle

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I read this story, and I'm on the side of the post office worker, regardless of whatever state licneses this business possesses, those licenses carry the same weight as monopoly money under federal law, should a letter carrier be required to deliver mail to marijuana shops?

Some pot shops not getting mail delivered to stores

BREMERTON — It's said neither "snow nor rain nor heat nor gloom of night" will stop the mail, but the sight of legalized marijuana stores has apparently stalled one Bremerton letter carrier.

Operators of two recreational marijuana stores on Callow Avenue — Pacific Cannabis Co. and The Reef — say they've had trouble getting mail delivered to their shops in the past month, since a new U.S. Postal Service worker took over the route. They say the carrier frequently refuses to enter their stores and won't drop off mail unless an employee comes outside to collect it.

oh this gem is great

"This is a serious problem for my business," Hartwell wrote in a letter to Bremerton Postmaster Harry Kleinfelter "... I expect the carrier to enter my business to deliver mail and to pick up outgoing mail, the same as any other licensed business in the state ..."

Still, federal law makes it illegal to distribute controlled substances, and this postman by knowingly facilitating this business that's openly operating in violation of the law could technically be guilty of engaging in a conspiracy to deliver controlled substances, it is not reasonable to expect him to risk prison time to deliver mail inside an operating criminal enterprise (and don't take that as a judgemental term, that is the term "criminal enterprise" used in federal law to describe organized distributors of illegal drugs)

what do you think?

In interest of disclosure, my hometown is the adjacent city of Port Orchard and I took some college in Bremerton and do a good deal of business in this town, This mj shop is in a fairly sketchy neighborhood too. there's a porn shop, payday lenders, a title pawn, three different 2 dollar wok joints, etc. just so you can picture this.
 

Chomsky

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Re: Bremerton, Washington letter carrier is refusing to enter pot shops to deliver ma

I read this story, and I'm on the side of the post office worker, regardless of whatever state licneses this business possesses, those licenses carry the same weight as monopoly money under federal law, should a letter carrier be required to deliver mail to marijuana shops?

Some pot shops not getting mail delivered to stores



oh this gem is great



Still, federal law makes it illegal to distribute controlled substances, and this postman by knowingly facilitating this business that's openly operating in violation of the law could technically be guilty of engaging in a conspiracy to deliver controlled substances, it is not reasonable to expect him to risk prison time to deliver mail inside an operating criminal enterprise (and don't take that as a judgemental term, that is the term "criminal enterprise" used in federal law to describe organized distributors of illegal drugs)

what do you think?

In interest of disclosure, my hometown is the adjacent city of Port Orchard and I took some college in Bremerton and do a good deal of business in this town, This mj shop is in a fairly sketchy neighborhood too. there's a porn shop, payday lenders, a title pawn, three different 2 dollar wok joints, etc. just so you can picture this.
I find it difficult to believe the feds would ever find reason to go after the postman! But maybe he's paranoid - some strains of pot will do that! ;)

What's a 'two dollar wok joint'?
 

EMNofSeattle

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Re: Bremerton, Washington letter carrier is refusing to enter pot shops to deliver ma

I find it difficult to believe the feds would ever find reason to go after the postman! But maybe he's paranoid - some strains of pot will do that! ;)

What's a 'two dollar wok joint'?

Asian restaurants with banners advertising food for 1-3 dollar
 

EMNofSeattle

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Re: Bremerton, Washington letter carrier is refusing to enter pot shops to deliver ma

I find it difficult to believe the feds would ever find reason to go after the postman! But maybe he's paranoid - some strains of pot will do that! ;)

What's a 'two dollar wok joint'?

belief he would never be prosecuted is not a defense in court now is it?
 

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Re: Bremerton, Washington letter carrier is refusing to enter pot shops to deliver ma

I read this story, and I'm on the side of the post office worker, regardless of whatever state licneses this business possesses, those licenses carry the same weight as monopoly money under federal law, should a letter carrier be required to deliver mail to marijuana shops?

Some pot shops not getting mail delivered to stores



oh this gem is great



Still, federal law makes it illegal to distribute controlled substances, and this postman by knowingly facilitating this business that's openly operating in violation of the law could technically be guilty of engaging in a conspiracy to deliver controlled substances, it is not reasonable to expect him to risk prison time to deliver mail inside an operating criminal enterprise (and don't take that as a judgemental term, that is the term "criminal enterprise" used in federal law to describe organized distributors of illegal drugs)

what do you think?

In interest of disclosure, my hometown is the adjacent city of Port Orchard and I took some college in Bremerton and do a good deal of business in this town, This mj shop is in a fairly sketchy neighborhood too. there's a porn shop, payday lenders, a title pawn, three different 2 dollar wok joints, etc. just so you can picture this.

I love Port Orchard. Lived there myself for a while when we were in the yards once.

Downtown Bremerton can be dismal. And I bet there will be some compromise made. Obviously he isn't opposed to actually delivering their mail, but he could be concerned for his own health, having to deliver to a place like that (maybe it smells).
 

EMNofSeattle

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Re: Bremerton, Washington letter carrier is refusing to enter pot shops to deliver ma

I love Port Orchard. Lived there myself for a while when we were in the yards once.

Downtown Bremerton can be dismal. And I bet there will be some compromise made. Obviously he isn't opposed to actually delivering their mail, but he could be concerned for his own health, having to deliver to a place like that (maybe it smells).

That could be so, I mean I am not opposed to legal marijuana, but I do not believe in state level legalization, especially since these business basically demand public employees arguably violate federal law. the only thing stopping the DEA from putting the battering ram through the door is executive orders on enforcement priority, a president Trump, or more likely, a President Hillary (who's on record as opposing Washington and Colorado's legalization and not supporting federal legalization) can easily order everyone involved arrested in this operation.

now Chomsky is right, they won't go after a letter carrier, but is it reasonable for an agency of the Federal Government to require service to enteprises in violation of federal law?

the safety is a secondary aspect, the postal service delivers to junkyards, talk about an unsafe environment there.

Port Orchard is a wonderful town, although the recent housing boom has kind of priced me out of there. Bremerton is getting better, this neighborhood where the pot shop is in off of Callow is still the "bad side of town" cheap ethnic restuarants, payday loan, title pawn, pot shot, glass pipe shop, etc. Downtown, especially in a 5 block radius from the ferry dock is much nicer then even a couple of years ago.
 

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Re: Bremerton, Washington letter carrier is refusing to enter pot shops to deliver ma

I read this story, and I'm on the side of the post office worker, regardless of whatever state licneses this business possesses, those licenses carry the same weight as monopoly money under federal law, should a letter carrier be required to deliver mail to marijuana shops?

Some pot shops not getting mail delivered to stores



oh this gem is great



Still, federal law makes it illegal to distribute controlled substances, and this postman by knowingly facilitating this business that's openly operating in violation of the law could technically be guilty of engaging in a conspiracy to deliver controlled substances, it is not reasonable to expect him to risk prison time to deliver mail inside an operating criminal enterprise (and don't take that as a judgemental term, that is the term "criminal enterprise" used in federal law to describe organized distributors of illegal drugs)

what do you think?

In interest of disclosure, my hometown is the adjacent city of Port Orchard and I took some college in Bremerton and do a good deal of business in this town, This mj shop is in a fairly sketchy neighborhood too. there's a porn shop, payday lenders, a title pawn, three different 2 dollar wok joints, etc. just so you can picture this.

All those bolded don't bother the guy's conscience, I take it.
I smell a publicity grab, a la the county clerk in Kentucky or wherever and the gay marriage licenses. "Look at me!"
 

EMNofSeattle

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Re: Bremerton, Washington letter carrier is refusing to enter pot shops to deliver ma

All those bolded don't bother the guy's conscience, I take it.
I smell a publicity grab, a la the county clerk in Kentucky or wherever and the gay marriage licenses. "Look at me!"

the difference is, the postman didn't go to the media, the pot shop did. he hasn't even been named.

AND the biggest difference is, the County Clerk in Kentucky was violating the law as ruled by the US Supreme Court just days before.

whereas, the Postman is refusing to deliver to a business that is defined under federal law as a continuing criminal enterprise, and the last Supreme Court ruling (Gonzales v Raich) held that state license to commit an act violating the controlled substances act is not a defense in federal court.

so kentucky clerk, broke the law, Bremerton postman, obeying the law. huge difference.
 

Grand Mal

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Re: Bremerton, Washington letter carrier is refusing to enter pot shops to deliver ma

the difference is, the postman didn't go to the media, the pot shop did. he hasn't even been named.

AND the biggest difference is, the County Clerk in Kentucky was violating the law as ruled by the US Supreme Court just days before.

whereas, the Postman is refusing to deliver to a business that is defined under federal law as a continuing criminal enterprise, and the last Supreme Court ruling (Gonzales v Raich) held that state license to commit an act violating the controlled substances act is not a defense in federal court.

so kentucky clerk, broke the law, Bremerton postman, obeying the law. huge difference.

The postman would be breaking the law by delivering the mail? I don't see it. What could he be charged with?
 

EMNofSeattle

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Re: Bremerton, Washington letter carrier is refusing to enter pot shops to deliver ma

The postman would be breaking the law by delivering the mail? I don't see it. What could he be charged with?

he is delivering the mail, he's just not entering the shop. the Kitsap Sun article (if you can't read it i apologize, some of the Sun's content requires a subscription, which I have because this is my regions newspaper of record) states the postman has been waiting outside for employees to come pick it up or otherwise has delivered to a nearby arcade that's owned by the same owner as the pot shop. So he is delivering their mail, simply refusing to enter the shop. likely there is nothing he could actually be charged with since any money for the business will be sealed and never in the postmans control, but nevertheless I could see not wanting to enter the criminal business, which avoids trouble altogether.

the owner of the pot shop was apparently asked by the postmaster to install an external letter box to recieve mail, she insists it's her god-given right to have someone walk the mail into the store.
 

EMNofSeattle

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Re: Bremerton, Washington letter carrier is refusing to enter pot shops to deliver ma

All those bolded don't bother the guy's conscience, I take it.


None of these businesses are per se illegal. selling porn and short term loans secured by car titles are not illegal in this country, many such businesses operate illegally, but their business model is not in and of itself illegal (although I consider the payday lenders and title pawn lenders to be sleazy people taking advantage of the poor)

selling marijuana is always illegal, always in violation of federal law, no matter how otherwise legitimate you are. there is no emotion in this, I am not saying marijuana users or sellers are this or that judgmental thing, other then criminals, and that's not a moral judgement, it's a procedural one. you can be a criminal and a decent human being, but selling marijuana in the US means you are a criminal. this has nothing to do with conscience, only procedure.
 

Grand Mal

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Re: Bremerton, Washington letter carrier is refusing to enter pot shops to deliver ma

None of these businesses are per se illegal. selling porn and short term loans secured by car titles are not illegal in this country, many such businesses operate illegally, but their business model is not in and of itself illegal (although I consider the payday lenders and title pawn lenders to be sleazy people taking advantage of the poor)

selling marijuana is always illegal, always in violation of federal law, no matter how otherwise legitimate you are. there is no emotion in this, I am not saying marijuana users or sellers are this or that judgmental thing, other then criminals, and that's not a moral judgement, it's a procedural one. you can be a criminal and a decent human being, but selling marijuana in the US means you are a criminal. this has nothing to do with conscience, only procedure.

It's all very strange.
 

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Re: Bremerton, Washington letter carrier is refusing to enter pot shops to deliver ma

I find it difficult to believe the feds would ever find reason to go after the postman! But maybe he's paranoid - some strains of pot will do that! ;)

What's a 'two dollar wok joint'?

Nevertheless pot shops aren't legal in spite of states licensing and collecting taxes from them. The postman has a valid point.
 

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Re: Bremerton, Washington letter carrier is refusing to enter pot shops to deliver ma

the difference is, the postman didn't go to the media, the pot shop did. he hasn't even been named.

AND the biggest difference is, the County Clerk in Kentucky was violating the law as ruled by the US Supreme Court just days before.

whereas, the Postman is refusing to deliver to a business that is defined under federal law as a continuing criminal enterprise, and the last Supreme Court ruling (Gonzales v Raich) held that state license to commit an act violating the controlled substances act is not a defense in federal court.

so kentucky clerk, broke the law, Bremerton postman, obeying the law. huge difference.

What ? Gonzales v Raich was about growing marijuana, not delivering mail to a dispensary. Raich sued because they had their plants destroyed, they didn't go to prison or something. I'm just baffled at the idea that this guy thinks he can slack off on his job because of some unjustified fear of imprisonment.

Sorry, but i don't see it. By all means, let the courts settle it, but i'm hoping that government workers can't force their arbitrary demands on business-owners by withholding service.
 

EMNofSeattle

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Re: Bremerton, Washington letter carrier is refusing to enter pot shops to deliver ma

What ? Gonzales v Raich was about growing marijuana, not delivering mail to a dispensary. Raich sued because they had their plants destroyed, they didn't go to prison or something. I'm just baffled at the idea that this guy thinks he can slack off on his job because of some unjustified fear of imprisonment.

Sorry, but i don't see it. By all means, let the courts settle it, but i'm hoping that government workers can't force their arbitrary demands on business-owners by withholding service.

Gonzales v Raich established state law does not have any bearing on a federal regulatory scheme.

The courts don't need to settle this, it is illegal to sell marijuana, period. No matter how you word smith it. So the postman is not imposing an arbitrary scheme.

Years ago a different postman refuses to deliver inside of Elmo's (a porn shop right down the street from this pot joint, he specifically said he wouldn't step inside for moral reasons, the post office told the business owner to get a box, he installed a letter box. Probablem solved.

So if that postman was accommodated, telling this criminal business to install a letter box is not unreasonable. Would you expect the postman to step inside a meth lab or a brothel?
 

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Re: Bremerton, Washington letter carrier is refusing to enter pot shops to deliver ma

Nevertheless pot shops aren't legal in spite of states licensing and collecting taxes from them. The postman has a valid point.
Not legal in federal terms, yes - you are correct.
 

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Re: Bremerton, Washington letter carrier is refusing to enter pot shops to deliver ma

Gonzales v Raich established state law does not have any bearing on a federal regulatory scheme.

The courts don't need to settle this, it is illegal to sell marijuana, period. No matter how you word smith it. So the postman is not imposing an arbitrary scheme.

Years ago a different postman refuses to deliver inside of Elmo's (a porn shop right down the street from this pot joint, he specifically said he wouldn't step inside for moral reasons, the post office told the business owner to get a box, he installed a letter box. Probablem solved.

So if that postman was accommodated, telling this criminal business to install a letter box is not unreasonable. Would you expect the postman to step inside a meth lab or a brothel?

If the postman decides to request the owner to change the way mail is delivered, the postman should continue to deliver the mail in the meantime. They shouldn't be arbitrarily imposing rules unless there are laws to guide the selection process.

Fact is, if a clerk has to issue gay marriage licenses, a mailman has to deliver mail. They are paid to do a job.
 

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Re: Bremerton, Washington letter carrier is refusing to enter pot shops to deliver ma

I love Port Orchard. Lived there myself for a while when we were in the yards once.

Downtown Bremerton can be dismal. And I bet there will be some compromise made. Obviously he isn't opposed to actually delivering their mail, but he could be concerned for his own health, having to deliver to a place like that (maybe it smells).

Being a Federal employee he will be drug tested. I don't know how much pot smoke needs to be in the air for it to register on a drug test, but he does have a very legitimate issue on just that particular note. I have to be in a drug consortium so I have to watch where I go and what I ingest or I could be tagged with a false positive.
 

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Re: Bremerton, Washington letter carrier is refusing to enter pot shops to deliver ma

If the postman decides to request the owner to change the way mail is delivered, the postman should continue to deliver the mail in the meantime. They shouldn't be arbitrarily imposing rules unless there are laws to guide the selection process.

Fact is, if a clerk has to issue gay marriage licenses, a mailman has to deliver mail. They are paid to do a job.

see post 18. That why he shouldn't be made to continue to deliver mail and why this business would need to install an external box.
 

EMNofSeattle

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Re: Bremerton, Washington letter carrier is refusing to enter pot shops to deliver ma

If the postman decides to request the owner to change the way mail is delivered, the postman should continue to deliver the mail in the meantime. They shouldn't be arbitrarily imposing rules unless there are laws to guide the selection process.

Fact is, if a clerk has to issue gay marriage licenses, a mailman has to deliver mail. They are paid to do a job.

The difference is, it is legal for gays to be issued marriage licenses, it is not legal to operate a criminal drug business.

The postman (who another media outlet in the local area is saying is a postWOman) has been delivering mail, just not entering the criminal pot business. it is not arbitrary, any more so then the law forbidding this operation. I don't think it's fair to require employees to enter illegal or unsafe situations.
 

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Re: Bremerton, Washington letter carrier is refusing to enter pot shops to deliver ma

the difference is, the postman didn't go to the media, the pot shop did. he hasn't even been named.

AND the biggest difference is, the County Clerk in Kentucky was violating the law as ruled by the US Supreme Court just days before.

whereas, the Postman is refusing to deliver to a business that is defined under federal law as a continuing criminal enterprise, and the last Supreme Court ruling (Gonzales v Raich) held that state license to commit an act violating the controlled substances act is not a defense in federal court.

so kentucky clerk, broke the law, Bremerton postman, obeying the law. huge difference.

And really he's only refusing to walk inside the business, not completely refusing to deliver their mail.
 

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Re: Bremerton, Washington letter carrier is refusing to enter pot shops to deliver ma

All those bolded don't bother the guy's conscience, I take it.
I smell a publicity grab, a la the county clerk in Kentucky or wherever and the gay marriage licenses. "Look at me!"

He may not have any moral issue with it at all. It may be a concern for his health. Even if it is just moral, no one else gets to decide his morality, which means no one gets to say that he should consider any of those other places as being on the same moral level as the pot shop.
 

EMNofSeattle

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Re: Bremerton, Washington letter carrier is refusing to enter pot shops to deliver ma

He may not have any moral issue with it at all. It may be a concern for his health. Even if it is just moral, no one else gets to decide his morality, which means no one gets to say that he should consider any of those other places as being on the same moral level as the pot shop.

exactly, it may not even be moral.

I do not consider payday lenders or title pawn to be morally superior to pot shops.

in fact I think an honestly run pot shop is morally superior to
>payday lenders
>title pawn
>casinos
>Nevada brothels
>check cashers (which in most but not all cases run out of payday lenders and title pawn)
> "tote the note" car dealers
>slum lords

but the fact is, whether we like it or not, those types of businesses are generally legal.

and selling drugs is not. morality doesn't have to enter into this.
 

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Re: Bremerton, Washington letter carrier is refusing to enter pot shops to deliver ma

I believe the postman is a dick.
 

EMNofSeattle

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Re: Bremerton, Washington letter carrier is refusing to enter pot shops to deliver ma

I believe the postman is a dick.

why? should he be required to enter a meth lab to deliver mail ?

The postal service is actually trying to work with this woman who owns the Marijuana shops, she has it in her head that she has a god given right to have the postwoman (just confirmed this morning, the "dick" letter carrier does in fact, not have a dick) walk in to her shop, which is operating in violation of federal law. openly so.

Now maybe she is, I don't know her motivation for not entering the shop, but it doesn't matter to me, I identify with working people and I don't think it's fair to require you to help illegal business for wages.

and this type of issue has come up before, a religious postman several years ago wouldn't walk inside to Elmo's adult books and nolvelties (which is located in the same town, on the same street as the pot business in this story) and according to local media sources the porn shop simply installed an exterior letter box and this was a solution, this is a far stronger case for not entering then the porn shop.
 
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