Breaking News hundred of torture camps found right here in the U.S.

[hipsterdufus]

For all of us college educated liberal elites, I would add fraternity hazing to this list. :roll:

 

[Trajan Octavian Titus]

McCain's bill will not undermine our ability to interrogate detainees. First, McCain's bill would establish the Army Field Manual as the uniform standard for interrogation.

http://mccain.senate.gov/index.cfm?fuseaction=NewsCenter.ViewPressRelease&Content_id=1611

Second, the Army Field Manual, echoing people who have actually interrogated enemy prisoners for a living, points out that torture is worthless anyway:

"Experience indicates that the use of force is not necessary to gain the cooperation of sources for interrogation. Therefore, the use of force is a poor technique, as it yields unreliable results, may damage subsequent collection efforts, and can induce the source to say whatever he thinks the interrogator wants to hear."

http://www.globalsecurity.org/intell/library/policy/army/fm/fm34-52/chapter1.htm

And it also points out that known successful and approved interrogation techniques are not considered torture:

"However, the use of force is not to be confused with psychological ploys, verbal trickery, or other nonviolent and noncoercive ruses used by the interrogator in questioning hesitant or uncooperative sources."

Anyone, anyone who claims that torture leads to useful information has not done one bit of research on the subject.

You're wrong as specified by the defintion of cruel and degrading treatment by amendment 1977 as specified by the United Nations convention against torture coercive techniques will be made illegal by the passing of the McCain bill just read my post partna.

 

[Trajan Octavian Titus]

Just in case anyone still thinks torture leads to useful intelligence.

""Anybody with real combat experience understands that torture is counterproductive," says F. Andy Messing, a retired major in the U.S. Special Forces and a conservative leader with the ear of the president. "It is a downhill slope if you engage in it. Everyplace it has been used that I have studied — the French were big for it in Algeria — it comes back and bites you." And, it seems, keeps biting."

http://www.insightmag.com/main.cfm/include/detail/storyid/253614.html



"Meet, for example, retired Air Force Col. John Rothrock, who, as a young captain, headed a combat interrogation team in Vietnam. More than once he was faced with a ticking time-bomb scenario: a captured Vietcong guerrilla who knew of plans to kill Americans. What was done in such cases was "not nice," he says. "But we did not physically abuse them." Rothrock used psychology, the shock of capture and of the unexpected. Once, he let a prisoner see a wounded comrade die. Yet -- as he remembers saying to the "desperate and honorable officers" who wanted him to move faster -- "if I take a Bunsen burner to the guy's genitals, he's going to tell you just about anything," which would be pointless. Rothrock, who is no squishy liberal, says that he doesn't know "any professional intelligence officers of my generation who would think this is a good idea.""

"Or listen to Army Col. Stuart Herrington, a military intelligence specialist who conducted interrogations in Vietnam, Panama and Iraq during Desert Storm, and who was sent by the Pentagon in 2003 -- long before Abu Ghraib -- to assess interrogations in Iraq. Aside from its immorality and its illegality, says Herrington, torture is simply "not a good way to get information." In his experience, nine out of 10 people can be persuaded to talk with no "stress methods" at all, let alone cruel and unusual ones. Asked whether that would be true of religiously motivated fanatics, he says that the "batting average" might be lower: "perhaps six out of ten." And if you beat up the remaining four? "They'll just tell you anything to get you to stop.""

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A2302-2005Jan11.html

"Willie J. Rowell, who served for thirty-six years as a C.I.D. agent, told me that the use of force or humiliation with prisoners is invariably counterproductive. “They’ll tell you what you want to hear, truth or no truth,” Rowell said. “ ‘You can flog me until I tell you what I know you want me to say.’ You don’t get righteous information.”"

http://www.newyorker.com/fact/content/?040510fa_fact

"Craig Murray, the former British Ambassador to Uzbekistan, told me that “the U.S. accepts quite a lot of intelligence from the Uzbeks” that has been extracted from suspects who have been tortured. This information was, he said, “largely rubbish.”"

http://www.newyorker.com/fact/content/?050214fa_fact6

"The use of torture has been criticized not only on humanitarian and moral grounds, but on the grounds that evidence extracted by torture tends to be extremely unreliable and that the use of torture corrupts institutions which tolerate it."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Torture#Use_of_torture

"The various rationalizations for torture do not bear close scrutiny. Intelligence specialists concede that the information acquired by torture cannot be considered reliable."

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article10410.htm

I guess that just about covers any reasonable argument over the legitimacy or necessity of torture.

Your skewing the issue non-support for amendment 1977 is not support for torture, the issue is that the definition of torture as specified by amendment 1977 will prevent any interogation of terrorist suspects whatsoever.

 

[Saboteur]

Gad, I can't believe anyone would try to defend torture by claiming that it's the same thing done to people who VOLUNTEERED for it!

Face it.... it's wrong and the stats say it doesn't get accurate information. Say for example that I had you captive and took a plyer to one of your unmentionables while demanding that you tell me that you are gay, do you think you could handle denying it?

On top of that there are Iraqis' that are coming forward and saying they were tortured but were never asked ONE question!

 

[Binary_Digit]

You're wrong as specified by the defintion of cruel and degrading treatment by amendment 1977 as specified by the United Nations convention against torture coercive techniques will be made illegal by the passing of the McCain bill just read my post partna.

...

Your skewing the issue non-support for amendment 1977 is not support for torture, the issue is that the definition of torture as specified by amendment 1977 will prevent any interogation of terrorist suspects whatsoever.

Huh? I'm sorry, I read both of those posts but I cannot find where it says that in bold. I see where it says "intimidating or coercing" will be illegal, but you're assuming this amounts to not being able to interrogate them at all?

 

[Trajan Octavian Titus]

Gad, I can't believe anyone would try to defend torture by claiming that it's the same thing done to people who VOLUNTEERED for it!

Face it.... it's wrong and the stats say it doesn't get accurate information. Say for example that I had you captive and took a plyer to one of your unmentionables while demanding that you tell me that you are gay, do you think you could handle denying it?

On top of that there are Iraqis' that are coming forward and saying they were tortured but were never asked ONE question!

Gad, I can't believe that you people are still trying to skew the issue the issue is not if you don't support amendment 1977 that you somehow by inference support torture, the issue is that the amendment as it is worded will tie the hands of the military from conducting any form of interogation whatsoever.

 

[libertarian_knight]

They have just found that a slew of torture camps exist not overseas or in secret prisons but right here in the good old U.S. of A read on:

HOLD THE PRESSES. I've discovered that the use of torture by the U.S. government is far more pervasive than previously believed. There are major facilities all over the country where thousands of men and women who have not committed any crime are held for prolonged periods while subjected to physical and psychological coercion that violates every tenet of the Geneva Convention.

They are routinely made to stand for long periods in uncomfortable positions. They are made to walk for hours while wearing heavy loads on their backs. They are bullied by martinets who get in their faces and yell insults at them. They are hit and often knocked down with clubs known as pugil sticks. They are denied sleep for more than a day at a time. They are forced to inhale tear gas. They are prevented from seeing friends or family. Some are traumatized by this treatment. Others are injured. A few even die.

Should Amnesty International or the International Committee of the Red Cross want to investigate these human-rights abuses, they could visit Parris Island, S.C., Camp Pendleton, Calif., Ft. Benning, Ga., Ft. Jackson, S.C., and other bases where the Army and Marines train recruits. It's worth keeping in mind how roughly the U.S. government treats its own defenders before we get too worked up over the treatment of captured terrorists.

http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/12982

Yep according to the Al-Qaeda Bill of Rights . . . . I mean the McCain torture Bill boot camp is now considered as torture let's hope the libs get around to stopping this right away just as soon as their done tying the hands of our military from winning the war on terror.

Such a goof you are sometimes. ahem. VOLUTEER military. Every trainee has the legal right to wash out. Prisoners in camps and jail cells aren't allowed to walk out.

 

[Trajan Octavian Titus]

Huh? I'm sorry, I read both of those posts but I cannot find where it says that in bold. I see where it says "intimidating or coercing" will be illegal, but you're assuming this amounts to not being able to interrogate them at all?

How are you going to interogate a suspect without coercion or intimidation?

You don't get it torture will now be defined as yelling at a suspect, playing good cop bad cop will now be considered torture.

 

[Trajan Octavian Titus]

Such a goof you are sometimes. ahem. VOLUTEER military. Every trainee has the legal right to wash out. Prisoners in camps and jail cells aren't allowed to walk out.

It was a cynical look at the McCain amendment 1977 but it illustrates a very good point that just about anything will now be considered torture.

 

[Binary_Digit]

Hah! The guys who washed out when I was in boot camp ended up in a "holding camp," with limited base and civilian clothes privelages, but they were still there waiting to get processed out when I and my company graduated. :rofl

 

[Trajan Octavian Titus]

Hah! The guys who washed out when I was in boot camp ended up in a "holding camp," with limited base and civilian clothes privelages, but they were still there waiting to get processed out when I and my company graduated. :rofl

huh . . . . . . .

 

[Thorgasm]

Trajan, where do you get your talking points? Either a detainee will talk or he won't, plain and simple. When McCain was tortured and asked for the names of the members of his squadron he gave them the offensive line for the Green Bay Packers. What would be more effective is "rewarding" them for giving information. That could mean preferential treatment and priveledges while being held. Every man has his price.

 

[Trajan Octavian Titus]

Trajan, where do you get your talking points? Either a detainee will talk or he won't, plain and simple. When McCain was tortured and asked for the names of the members of his squadron he gave them the offensive line for the Green Bay Packers. What would be more effective is "rewarding" them for giving information. That could mean preferential treatment and priveledges while being held. Every man has his price.

Can't reward them that would be considered coercion. In fact you can't really interogate them at all they might get intimitaded and that would be in violation of the amendment.

 

[Saboteur]

Gad, I can't believe that you people are still trying to skew the issue the issue is not if you don't support amendment 1977 that you somehow by inference support torture, the issue is that the amendment as it is worded will tie the hands of the military from conducting any form of interogation whatsoever.

There are ways to get information without violence.

I love how you ignored most of my post and are trying to blame it all on me 'cuz I'm a liberal.

The sight you linked to in your original post should be called outsidereality.

 

[Binary_Digit]

How are you going to interogate a suspect without coercion or intimidation?

You don't get it torture will now be defined as yelling at a suspect, playing good cop bad cop will now be considered torture.

I think that's an exaggeration. It doesn't say any form of physical or mental suffering is prohibited, it says severe. Good cop/bad cop, screaming and throwing chairs (not at them), even an occaisonal "belly slap" doesn't amount to severe suffering in my view. I guess it would depend on the judge, if a civil suit ever happened, or the guys actually doing it and their immediate supervisors.

Judging by what the former field operatives say, I can maybe see an argument for intimidation, because at least one of them said that worked for him. But not coersion. You can't physically force someone to tell the truth any more than you can cut it out of them with a knife. And I think "intimidation" has its own opinion-oriented boundaries too, just like "severe."

Hah! The guys who washed out when I was in boot camp ended up in a "holding camp," with limited base and civilian clothes privelages, but they were still there waiting to get processed out when I and my company graduated.

huh . . . . . . .

Sorry, I was responding to "Every trainee has the legal right to wash out. Prisoners in camps and jail cells aren't allowed to walk out." posted by libertarian_knight.

 

[Binary_Digit]

Can't reward them that would be considered coercion.

I'm not sure about that. My dictionary says coerce means "compel by force."

 

[Thorgasm]

I'm not sure about that. My dictionary says coerce means "compel by force."

You are correct. By his definition, every plea agreement in the justice system is coercion.

 

[Trajan Octavian Titus]

I'm not sure about that. My dictionary says coerce means "compel by force."

Ya you're right I retract my previous statement:

Coerce: forcing somebody to do something: the use of force or threats to make people do things against their will.


However the defintion of coerce now means that you won't even be able to threaten a suspect even if it is an empty threat, one of the most effective techniques used to extract intel from suspected terrorists was to place stickers with the name of their country of origin on them and then threaten them by telling them that: "since you won't cooperate you're being sent home," these suspects were so scared of being sent to their own countries where real torture is allowed prompted them to spill their guts even no it was an empty threat and they were not really being sent home but were made to think they were. With the passing of the McCain amendment these techniques will no longer be allowed, it's tying the hands of the military and in my opinion it's freaking retarted.

As for the reward thing though do you really think that the technique of rewarding someone who would just as soon die himself to kill an American would work against a person like that?

 

[Pacridge]

I don't believe boot camp would actually be torture but I think that a lot of the stuff that goes along with it could be. Have you ever seen the movie 'A Few Good Men'? I think **** like that is a problem.

A more accurate movie depiction of boot camp can be found in the film "Full Metal Jacket." I think it was spot on, most other vets I talked to have agreed. I went to Naval Boot in San Diego. Through the chain link fence we could see what the USMC recruits were being put through. That made getting kicked in the ribs seem minor.

 

[Trajan Octavian Titus]

A more accurate movie depiction of boot camp can be found in the film "Full Metal Jacket." I think it was spot on, most other vets I talked to have agreed. I went to Naval Boot in San Diego. Through the chain link fence we could see what the USMC recruits were being put through. That made getting kicked in the ribs seem minor.

Oh sweet jumpin Jesus! The article was a cynical look at the McCain amendment and the irony here is that you libs are actually taking it seriously, it would be almost laughable if it wasn't so sad.

 

[libertarian_knight]

Ya the torture bill is going to sway world opinion. :roll:

Here's the deal this torture bill the way it is worded now is bullshit, and people are spinning it to hide the real issue by saying that if you don't support the torture bill then you support torture, which is not the issue at all, the issue is that the bill defines torture in such a way as to not allow any interogation techniques to be used at all it defines torture as cruel and degrading treatment which can mean just about anything.

Passing this bill is like saying to the terrorists: "Don't worry if you get caught because the U.S. has tied its own hands."

Well, TOUGH F***ING LUCK. You all told us, that if we didn't suport the iraq war, we supported terrorist, Saddam being evil, Genocide, and hated American Troops. Your side set the political tone in the US, you don't like it, too f***ing bad. Buncha whining is what I hear. Oh ohh we can't do our job <cry>. Well, they suck at the job anyway. You and your team made your bed, now lie in it. And quit whining. freakin socialist.

 

[Trajan Octavian Titus]

Well, TOUGH F***ING LUCK. You all told us, that if we didn't suport the iraq war, we supported terrorist, Saddam being evil, Genocide, and hated American Troops. Your side set the political tone in the US, you don't like it, too f***ing bad. Buncha whining is what I hear. Oh ohh we can't do our job <cry>. Well, they suck at the job anyway. You and your team made your bed, now lie in it. And quit whining. freakin socialist.

OMFG you've got to be ******** me they suck at the job? Well there hasn't been a terrorist attack on U.S. soil since 9-11, they must be doing something right.

Your side is trying to tie the hands of the men and women who are trying to protect us.

And as for you socialist theory, I'm a god damn neo-liberalist in my economic thinking and I'm all for the Washington consensus.

 

[Binary_Digit]

Ya the torture bill is going to sway world opinion.

Maybe that's because Bush origionally threatened to veto it? Maybe that's because Cheney begged Congress to let the CIA be exempt from it? Maybe that's because Bush is not sincerely against torture, by his own freaking actions? Jumpin sweet Jesus, and we wonder why they don't like us!

 

[Trajan Octavian Titus]

Maybe that's because Bush origionally threatened to veto it? Maybe that's because Cheney begged Congress to let the CIA be exempt from it? Maybe that's because Bush is not sincerely against torture, by his own freaking actions? Jumpin sweet Jesus, and we wonder why they don't like us!

This is your whole problem you are trying to infer that if I am against amendment 1977 that I am somehow in support of torture, this is not the case and I take issue with the anti-torture legislation in that it doesn't clearly enough define the term torture. Degrading can mean too many things for it to be a clear enough definition of torture.

 

[Binary_Digit]

This is your whole problem you are trying to infer that if I am against amendment 1977 that I am somehow in support of torture, this is not the case and I take issue with the anti-torture legislation in that it doesn't clearly enough define the term torture. Degrading can mean too many things for it to be a clear enough definition of torture.

The UNCAT definition seems to work ok for the rest of the civilized world, no?

one of the most effective techniques used to extract intel from suspected terrorists was to place stickers with the name of their country of origin on them and then threaten them by telling them that: "since you won't cooperate you're being sent home," these suspects were so scared of being sent to their own countries where real torture is allowed prompted them to spill their guts even no it was an empty threat and they were not really being sent home but were made to think they were.

Do you have a link for that?