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Breaking: Full House committee transcripts shed new light on genesis of IRS targeting

pbrauer

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The full transcripts of the IRS people show that the selections were not politically motivated, they simply were grouped together so there would be consistency of handling.

Democrats on the House Oversight Committee have just released a full transcript of testimony from a key witness in the investigation of IRS targeting of conservatives — and it appears to confirm that the initial targeting did originate with a low-level employee in the Cincinnati office.

It also shows a key witness and IRS screening manager – a self described conservative Republican — denying any communication with the White House or senior IRS officials about the targeting.

snip

In the testimony, the screening manager says that he first became aware of the initial Tea Party application when an "agent who worked for me" asked for "guidance concerning a case for him." The manager testified that in this case he agreed with the agent that "there was not enough information" to figure out whether to grant the group tax exempt status.

"I told him at that point in time I agreed with his thinking," the manager testified, adding that he informed the agent that he would "elevate that issue to my area manager."

"This was the first case that came in that was brought to my attention," the manager continued.

The manager further testified that the Tea Party groups were deliberately grouped together so that they would receive consistent treatment. "There was a lot of concerns about making sure that any cases that had, you know, similar-type activities or items included, that they would be worked by the same agent or same group," the manager testified.

In the testimony, the screening manager also flatly stated he had no reason to believe there was White House involvement.

snip

The screening manager also testifies that he never had any conversation with Lois Lerner, the former director of the Exempt Organizations Division, or former IRS commissioner Douglas Schulmanm about the "screening of Tea Party cases."

Breaking: Full House committee transcripts shed new light on genesis of IRS targeting






 

TheNextEra

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Re: Breaking: Full House committee transcripts shed new light on genesis of IRS targe

The full transcripts of the IRS people show that the selections were not politically motivated, they simply were grouped together so there would be consistency of handling.

It was politically motivated because the SAME wasn't done with left-leaning groups and only right-leaning ones were targeted.

Yes, there was a consistancy to how the right-leaning groups were handled, but inconsistant that left-leaning groups were not being targeted.

If the same was done with left-leaning groups, while there would be anger from the right, it wouldn't have been a scandal like it is now.
 

ecofarm

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Re: Breaking: Full House committee transcripts shed new light on genesis of IRS targe

I'm amazed that the some people who claim that Bush planned the Abu Graib crime work so hard to protect Obama. In one case, innuendo and "evil empire" references suffice to indict the president. In the other, nothing short of a signed document could indict the president and great effort is made to hide the crime itself.

I think Abu Graib and the IRS scandal make for a nice litmus test of ones partisanship.
 

ttwtt78640

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Re: Breaking: Full House committee transcripts shed new light on genesis of IRS targe

The full transcripts of the IRS people show that the selections were not politically motivated, they simply were grouped together so there would be consistency of handling.

Democrats on the House Oversight Committee have just released a full transcript of testimony from a key witness in the investigation of IRS targeting of conservatives — and it appears to confirm that the initial targeting did originate with a low-level employee in the Cincinnati office.

It also shows a key witness and IRS screening manager – a self described conservative Republican — denying any communication with the White House or senior IRS officials about the targeting.

snip

In the testimony, the screening manager says that he first became aware of the initial Tea Party application when an "agent who worked for me" asked for "guidance concerning a case for him." The manager testified that in this case he agreed with the agent that "there was not enough information" to figure out whether to grant the group tax exempt status.

"I told him at that point in time I agreed with his thinking," the manager testified, adding that he informed the agent that he would "elevate that issue to my area manager."

"This was the first case that came in that was brought to my attention," the manager continued.

The manager further testified that the Tea Party groups were deliberately grouped together so that they would receive consistent treatment. "There was a lot of concerns about making sure that any cases that had, you know, similar-type activities or items included, that they would be worked by the same agent or same group," the manager testified.

In the testimony, the screening manager also flatly stated he had no reason to believe there was White House involvement.

snip

The screening manager also testifies that he never had any conversation with Lois Lerner, the former director of the Exempt Organizations Division, or former IRS commissioner Douglas Schulmanm about the "screening of Tea Party cases."

Breaking: Full House committee transcripts shed new light on genesis of IRS targeting







This part of the manager's statement makes it clear that "political lean" was indeed considered:

The manager further testified that the Tea Party groups were deliberately grouped together so that they would receive consistent treatment. “There was a lot of concerns about making sure that any cases that had, you know, similar-type activities or items included, that they would be worked by the same agent or same group,” the manager testified.

Note that only TP (conservative?) groups, not all political activist groups, were "grouped" and given "special attention" before being granted approval for tax exempt status. Had the "extra attention" been given to all politically motivated groups (including those with "liberal" causes) then perhaps I would buy into the "coincidence" that they were placed into the "special attention" agent/group category. The manager should be asked to explain why just TP organizations' applications, not all political cause groups, were given this "special" attention/consideration.
 

Fisher

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Re: Breaking: Full House committee transcripts shed new light on genesis of IRS targe

The person screening them is not the person processing them. This does not add much to the ultimate question regarding selective enforcement. I could care less about the Tea Party. I think all these organizations--left and right--should lose their status. The only thing that concerns me were whether or not Mitt Romney's tax returns made it secretly into the hands of the political camps. There has been no evidence of it, but the way everyone on the left was obsessing about them last year and the rumors of off shore accounts and him possibly availing himself of the amnesty program a few years ago, paired with this story about the IRS, makes me suspicious if there is another shoe yet to drop.
 

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Re: Breaking: Full House committee transcripts shed new light on genesis of IRS targe

"inexcusable" - President Obama
 

Dickieboy

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Re: Breaking: Full House committee transcripts shed new light on genesis of IRS targe

The full transcripts of the IRS people show that the selections were not politically motivated, they simply were grouped together so there would be consistency of handling...

'consistency of handling'...so when the IG report revealed that 'right leaning' applicants' approvals were delayed significantly more than 'left leaning' applicants it proved this consistency? Does this seem appropriate to you? It didn't to the IG...Further, what would you assert is the reason for this disparity if not 'political motivation'?
 

CanadaJohn

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Re: Breaking: Full House committee transcripts shed new light on genesis of IRS targe

I'm amazed that the some people who claim that Bush planned the Abu Graib crime work so hard to protect Obama. In one case, innuendo and "evil empire" references suffice to indict the president. In the other, nothing short of a signed document could indict the president and great effort is made to hide the crime itself.

I think Abu Graib and the IRS scandal make for a nice litmus test of ones partisanship.

I agree - the absolute obsessive compulsion to rabidly jump to the protection of Obama is mystifying to me. Even when caught in obvious lies or misrepresentations, there seems to be an irrational need to beat down any mention of it as if the demi-god may be exposed.

Personally, I'm a big fan of both Richard Nixon and GW Bush but I don't for a minute claim that either man was the pillar of virtue nor the only oracle of all knowledge the way Obama sycophants do.
 

ecofarm

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Re: Breaking: Full House committee transcripts shed new light on genesis of IRS targe

I agree - the absolute obsessive compulsion to rabidly jump to the protection of Obama is mystifying to me. Even when caught in obvious lies or misrepresentations, there seems to be an irrational need to beat down any mention of it as if the demi-god may be exposed.

Personally, I'm a big fan of both Richard Nixon and GW Bush but I don't for a minute claim that either man was the pillar of virtue nor the only oracle of all knowledge the way Obama sycophants do.

The thing is, I don't see any real link between Obama or the White House and the scandal. It looks like a crime committed in an organization to me, just like Abu Graib.

That some extreme partisans go as far as to pretend that nothing wrong happened, well, that's an even higher level of absolutism-demanding hysteria. For some, it's not enough that the administration was not involved. Some need liberals absolved off all wrongdoings whatsoever. Unless their party is absolutely perfect and no one, at any level, would ever do anything wrong then the whole house of cards falls. It's frightening to think that anyone would believe any group is incapable of doing wrong.

This defending of the IRS is similar to defending the crimes of Abu Graib. As if justifying them will somehow protect ones "team".
 
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pbrauer

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Re: Breaking: Full House committee transcripts shed new light on genesis of IRS targe

'consistency of handling'...so when the IG report revealed that 'right leaning' applicants' approvals were delayed significantly more than 'left leaning' applicants it proved this consistency? Does this seem appropriate to you? It didn't to the IG...Further, what would you assert is the reason for this disparity if not 'political motivation'?
I think putting all the "tea party" organizations together is what is meant by consistency. As for the disparity, I can only assume it was the mission of the groups that held some up. But, I really don't know.
 

StringBean

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Re: Breaking: Full House committee transcripts shed new light on genesis of IRS targe

Come on, if Bush was single-handedly responsible for Katrina destroying New Orleans certainly Obama is responsible for the IRS singling out his political enemies right after a devastating mid-term election.

Or maybe, people are just partisan hacks.
 

head of joaquin

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Re: Breaking: Full House committee transcripts shed new light on genesis of IRS targe

Hasn't it already been established that a conservative republican in the Cincinnati group was basically directing the whole thing?

Hasn't the rightwing narrative basically gone up in smoke, like one of Issa's arson incidents?
 

justabubba

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Re: Breaking: Full House committee transcripts shed new light on genesis of IRS targe

'consistency of handling'...so when the IG report revealed that 'right leaning' applicants' approvals were delayed significantly more than 'left leaning' applicants it proved this consistency? Does this seem appropriate to you? It didn't to the IG...Further, what would you assert is the reason for this disparity if not 'political motivation'?

in my reading of the entire IG report, i do not recall seeing this having been mentioned
would you please offer us the exact quote from the report which says this
because i think what you have posted is but another instance where you are making **** up
 

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Re: Breaking: Full House committee transcripts shed new light on genesis of IRS targe

in my reading of the entire IG report, i do not recall seeing this having been mentioned
would you please offer us the exact quote from the report which says this
because i think what you have posted is but another instance where you are making **** up

Sure, page 15:

Potential political cases were open much longer than similar cases that were not identified for processing by the team of specialists

For Fiscal Year 2012, the average time it took the Determinations Unit to complete processing applications requiring additional information from organizations applying for tax-exempt status (also referred to by the EO function as full development cases) was 238 calendar days according to IRS data. In comparison, the average time a potential political case was open as of December 17, 2012, was 574 calendar days (with 158 potential political cases being open longer than the average calendar days it took to close other full development cases).36 Figure 6 shows that more than 80 percent of the potential political cases have been open more than one year.
 

justabubba

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Re: Breaking: Full House committee transcripts shed new light on genesis of IRS targe

Sure, page 15:

and NOTHING there compares the processing time of conservative applications versus progressive applications
"nice" magic trick, turning thin air into a bunch of ****
 

ARealConservative

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Re: Breaking: Full House committee transcripts shed new light on genesis of IRS targe

Hasn't it already been established that a conservative republican in the Cincinnati group was basically directing the whole thing?

Hasn't the rightwing narrative basically gone up in smoke, like one of Issa's arson incidents?

the conservative narrative is government corrupts, and we must limit the power and scope because of this truism.

how has that narrative went up in smoke again?
 

ttwtt78640

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Re: Breaking: Full House committee transcripts shed new light on genesis of IRS targe

Hasn't it already been established that a conservative republican in the Cincinnati group was basically directing the whole thing?

Hasn't the rightwing narrative basically gone up in smoke, like one of Issa's arson incidents?

Replace the bolded with any other political slant and your argument still fails miserably. The fact that anyone can simply direct a federal agency to apply different standards to individual citizens or groups based upon their political leaning is the issue, not which one was the target or "main" perpetrator. If a federal agency is so out of control that they may do this then we (the entire country) have a serious problem. The administration line that tends to simply say "stuff occurs" but will not happen again is pure BS when no direct and immediate policy/agency structure/personnel action is taken - in this case that should clearly include criminal charges. This was well beyond a simple mistake in procedure, a misinterpretation of a rule, something minor missed by a supervisor or a one time occurrence - this indicates the clear potential for massive abuse of the U.S. citizens by their "servants" with no real consequences for those making up the "new rules" serving as federal law/tax policy.
 

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Re: Breaking: Full House committee transcripts shed new light on genesis of IRS targe

the conservative narrative is government corrupts, and we must limit the power and scope because of this truism.

how has that narrative went up in smoke again?

Some people believe that an "other" is always the narrative. "Four legs good, two legs bad" is the only narrative they know. They are interested in one thing, attacking the other. Given such a perspective, they naturally expect the same of others. Issues surrounding accusations? That's of no consequence to them. It's a strange thing, for the rest of us and made only stranger by how common. These hard charging, blinders wearing warriors of the "you suck" army go by many names... partisans, pundits, hacks, bots and many more. I prefer to call them orcs.
 

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Re: Breaking: Full House committee transcripts shed new light on genesis of IRS targe

Top Shulman aide frequent White House visitor

BY: SUSAN FERRECHIO
JUNE 21, 2013


While congressional lawmakers are questioning why former Internal Revenue Service Commissioner Douglas Shulman paid dozens of visits to the White House during his tenure, Shulman’s top political aide seems to have spent even more time working side-by-side with members of the Obama administration.

White House visitor logs show Shulman’s chief of staff, Jonathan M. Davis, appears to have visited the White House and adjacent Eisenhower office building as many as 310 times between the fall of 2009 and February 2013.

Davis’ background is in technology and had no expertise on tax issues , according to some IRS sources who said Davis served mostly as a political aide who served with Shulman to the Financial Industry Regulatory Authority, where Shulman was vice chairman, and then followed him to the IRS.


[Excerpt]

Read more:
Top Shulman aide frequent White House visitor | WashingtonExaminer.com

Hmm..., Must have been a lot of Easter Egg hunts looks like Mr. Shulman needed assistance at the White House.
 

Dickieboy

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Re: Breaking: Full House committee transcripts shed new light on genesis of IRS targe

and NOTHING there compares the processing time of conservative applications versus progressive applications
"nice" magic trick, turning thin air into a bunch of ****

I expected this type response. I would have to copy/paste the entire section to accommodate your request. Within the context of the portion I posted the 'potential political cases' referred to were those in question of the IG audit, 'Tea party style' applications (or 'right leaning'). All others would undoubtedly include 'left leaning' by default...and probably some 'non-tea party style' as well which is irrelevant to the 'extended time' conclusion made by the IG.
 

justabubba

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Re: Breaking: Full House committee transcripts shed new light on genesis of IRS targe

I expected this type response. I would have to copy/paste the entire section to accommodate your request. Within the context of the portion I posted the 'potential political cases' referred to were those in question of the IG audit, 'Tea party style' applications (or 'right leaning'). All others would undoubtedly include 'left leaning' by default...and probably some 'non-tea party style' as well which is irrelevant to the 'extended time' conclusion made by the IG.

you should have expected such a response
you posted a lie
i called you on the lie and invited you to give us a quote to exculpate you from the lie
and you offered a bunch of crap that had nothing to do with your lie
busted
quit making **** up and posting it as if it were true
 

Dickieboy

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Re: Breaking: Full House committee transcripts shed new light on genesis of IRS targe

you should have expected such a response
you posted a lie
i called you on the lie and invited you to give us a quote to exculpate you from the lie
and you offered a bunch of crap that had nothing to do with your lie
busted
quit making **** up and posting it as if it were true

I respectfully disagree. I provided a portion of the audit that explained that 'Potential political cases were open much longer than similar cases'. These 'potential political cases' were identified in the audit (page 5):

The Determinations Unit developed and began using criteria to identify potential political cases for review that inappropriately identified specific groups applying for tax-exempt status based on their names or policy positions instead of developing criteria based on tax-exempt laws and Treasury Regulations.

'their names or policy postions' included (pg 6):

a Determinations Unit specialist was asked to search for applications with Tea Party, Patriots, or 9/12 in the organization’s name as well as other “political-sounding” names.

Ergo, those 'potential political cases' who 'were open much longer than similar cases that were not identified for processing by the team of specialists' were identified by 'applications with Tea Party, Patriots, or 9/12 in the organization’s name as well as other “political-sounding” names'.

Who do you prescribe are those 'similar cases that were not identified for processing by the team of specialists'?
 

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Re: Breaking: Full House committee transcripts shed new light on genesis of IRS targe

Hasn't it already been established that a conservative republican in the Cincinnati group was basically directing the whole thing?

Hasn't the rightwing narrative basically gone up in smoke, like one of Issa's arson incidents?

Oh you mean the same guy that consistently donated to the Democratic Party even when he was employed by Bush?
Then there's that badly constructed allegation that Katrina was completely Bush's fault only if you leave out the facts like Gov. Blanco refusing the Nat'l Guard and FEMA into NOLA to assist, or Mayor Nagin abandoning the people of NOLA while hundreds of buses were available to evacuate them before Katrina hit. Some things just make say Hmm....
 

justabubba

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Re: Breaking: Full House committee transcripts shed new light on genesis of IRS targe

I respectfully disagree. I provided a portion of the audit that explained that 'Potential political cases were open much longer than similar cases'. These 'potential political cases' were identified in the audit (page 5):



'their names or policy postions' included (pg 6):



Ergo, those 'potential political cases' who 'were open much longer than similar cases that were not identified for processing by the team of specialists' were identified by 'applications with Tea Party, Patriots, or 9/12 in the organization’s name as well as other “political-sounding” names'.

Who do you prescribe are those 'similar cases that were not identified for processing by the team of specialists'?

and yet again you have failed to meet the challenge presented to you
to actually produce the quote confirming what you said it said

you insisted the IG report provided documentation that conservative tax exempt applicants were treated in a manner dissimilar to, delayed longer than, those submitted by liberal organizations
and despite repeated attempts you have failed to offer us anything from the IG report which says that

quite the magician, creating **** from whole cloth
 

Woodman909

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Re: Breaking: Full House committee transcripts shed new light on genesis of IRS targe

Pure 100% BS
 
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