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Boy Scouts’ money struggles: Is bankruptcy an option?

TU Curmudgeon

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From The Associated Press

Boy Scouts’ money struggles: Is bankruptcy an option?

NEW YORK (AP) — The Boy Scouts of America deflected questions about a report suggesting it is considering seeking bankruptcy protection, though the head of the organization said it is exploring “all options” as it tries to stay afloat while facing sexual abuse lawsuits and dwindling membership.

“I want to assure you that our daily mission will continue and that there are no imminent actions or immediate decisions expected,” Chief Scout Executive Mike Surbaugh said in a statement issued Wednesday evening.

Surbaugh was responding to a Wall Street Journal report that the BSA, founded in 1910, had hired a law firm to assist in a possible Chapter 11 bankruptcy filing. He described the report as “news speculation,” but he acknowledged that the group is “working with experts to explore all options available” as well as the pressures arising from multiple lawsuits related to past instances of sexual abuse.

“We have a social and moral responsibility to fairly compensate victims who suffered abuse during their time in Scouting, and we also have an obligation to carry out our mission to serve youth, families and local communities through our programs,” Surbaugh said.

COMMENT:-

For some reason the "We have a social and moral responsibility to fairly compensate victims who suffered abuse" coming from the BSA sounds suspiciously like the "We have a social and moral responsibility to fairly compensate victims who suffered abuse" coming from the RCC Inc..

Not only that, but both organizations appear to be doing everything possible to ensure that they, and their administrators, are as "judgment proof" as possible so that there simply won't be any assets with which to fulfil that "social and moral responsibility".

None of the above can (or should) be taken to mean that I don't think that the BSA has, ON BALANCE, been a long-term force for the improvement of the youth of the country (once it got over Lord Baden-Powell's silly scheme to use "Scouting" as a preparatory stage for military service), it simply means that I find the "We have a social and moral responsibility to fairly compensate victims who suffered abuse" statement to ring hollow in light of the actions of the current leadership of the BSA.

The same applies equally (absent the "preparatory stage for military service" bit) to the RCC Inc..

PS - The Chief Scout Executive receives an annual salary of $1,577,600
 

ttwtt78640

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From The Associated Press

Boy Scouts’ money struggles: Is bankruptcy an option?

NEW YORK (AP) — The Boy Scouts of America deflected questions about a report suggesting it is considering seeking bankruptcy protection, though the head of the organization said it is exploring “all options” as it tries to stay afloat while facing sexual abuse lawsuits and dwindling membership.

“I want to assure you that our daily mission will continue and that there are no imminent actions or immediate decisions expected,” Chief Scout Executive Mike Surbaugh said in a statement issued Wednesday evening.

Surbaugh was responding to a Wall Street Journal report that the BSA, founded in 1910, had hired a law firm to assist in a possible Chapter 11 bankruptcy filing. He described the report as “news speculation,” but he acknowledged that the group is “working with experts to explore all options available” as well as the pressures arising from multiple lawsuits related to past instances of sexual abuse.

“We have a social and moral responsibility to fairly compensate victims who suffered abuse during their time in Scouting, and we also have an obligation to carry out our mission to serve youth, families and local communities through our programs,” Surbaugh said.

COMMENT:-

For some reason the "We have a social and moral responsibility to fairly compensate victims who suffered abuse" coming from the BSA sounds suspiciously like the "We have a social and moral responsibility to fairly compensate victims who suffered abuse" coming from the RCC Inc..

Not only that, but both organizations appear to be doing everything possible to ensure that they, and their administrators, are as "judgment proof" as possible so that there simply won't be any assets with which to fulfil that "social and moral responsibility".

None of the above can (or should) be taken to mean that I don't think that the BSA has, ON BALANCE, been a long-term force for the improvement of the youth of the country (once it got over Lord Baden-Powell's silly scheme to use "Scouting" as a preparatory stage for military service), it simply means that I find the "We have a social and moral responsibility to fairly compensate victims who suffered abuse" statement to ring hollow in light of the actions of the current leadership of the BSA.

The same applies equally (absent the "preparatory stage for military service" bit) to the RCC Inc..

PS - The Chief Scout Executive receives an annual salary of $1,577,600

It makes perfect sense that the CEO of the Boy Scouts makes 3X what the POTUS does.
 

TU Curmudgeon

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It makes perfect sense that the CEO of the Boy Scouts makes 3X what the POTUS does.

Damn right it does.

Mr. Trump just looks silly in knee pants and an 1840s style campaign hat.

You gotta pay for the image, yahno.
 

American

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From The Associated Press

Boy Scouts’ money struggles: Is bankruptcy an option?

NEW YORK (AP) — The Boy Scouts of America deflected questions about a report suggesting it is considering seeking bankruptcy protection, though the head of the organization said it is exploring “all options” as it tries to stay afloat while facing sexual abuse lawsuits and dwindling membership.

“I want to assure you that our daily mission will continue and that there are no imminent actions or immediate decisions expected,” Chief Scout Executive Mike Surbaugh said in a statement issued Wednesday evening.

Surbaugh was responding to a Wall Street Journal report that the BSA, founded in 1910, had hired a law firm to assist in a possible Chapter 11 bankruptcy filing. He described the report as “news speculation,” but he acknowledged that the group is “working with experts to explore all options available” as well as the pressures arising from multiple lawsuits related to past instances of sexual abuse.

“We have a social and moral responsibility to fairly compensate victims who suffered abuse during their time in Scouting, and we also have an obligation to carry out our mission to serve youth, families and local communities through our programs,” Surbaugh said.

COMMENT:-

For some reason the "We have a social and moral responsibility to fairly compensate victims who suffered abuse" coming from the BSA sounds suspiciously like the "We have a social and moral responsibility to fairly compensate victims who suffered abuse" coming from the RCC Inc..

Not only that, but both organizations appear to be doing everything possible to ensure that they, and their administrators, are as "judgment proof" as possible so that there simply won't be any assets with which to fulfil that "social and moral responsibility".

None of the above can (or should) be taken to mean that I don't think that the BSA has, ON BALANCE, been a long-term force for the improvement of the youth of the country (once it got over Lord Baden-Powell's silly scheme to use "Scouting" as a preparatory stage for military service), it simply means that I find the "We have a social and moral responsibility to fairly compensate victims who suffered abuse" statement to ring hollow in light of the actions of the current leadership of the BSA.

The same applies equally (absent the "preparatory stage for military service" bit) to the RCC Inc..

PS - The Chief Scout Executive receives an annual salary of $1,577,600

You're actually pretty ****ing wrong.

Access Denied

https://blog.scoutingmagazine.org/2...ation-military-academies-unsurprisingly-high/

https://blog.scoutingmagazine.org/2016/03/01/scouting-has-some-high-powered-fans-at-the-pentagon/

https://apps.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/a161369.pdf <<< especially this one
 

TU Curmudgeon

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You might want to read


Practised by frontiersmen of the American Old West and Indigenous peoples of the Americas, woodcraft was generally little known to the British Army but well-known to the American scout Burnham.[5] These skills eventually formed the basis of what is now called scoutcraft, the fundamentals of Scouting. Both men recognised that wars in Africa were changing markedly and the British Army needed to adapt; so during their joint scouting missions, Baden-Powell and Burnham discussed the concept of a broad training programme in woodcraft for young men, rich in exploration, tracking, fieldcraft, and self-reliance.[10]
[source]

as well as Peter van Wyk's 2003 book "Burnham: King of Scouts" from Trafford Publishing (ISBN 1-4122-0028-8).
 

apdst

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A victory for the communists.
 

Skeptic Bob

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I have mixed feeling about the Scouts, even though I allow my own son to participate in it. But I will give them credit for implementing multiple new measures to help prevent such violations in the future. Adults are not allowed to be alone with the kids. All adults, even if not in leadership positions, must undergo online training and pass the exams in order to go on functions like camping. The training explains the rules for how adults should engage with the kids and what to look out for. It isn’t perfect, but it is about the best that can be expected.
 

American

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You might want to read


Practised by frontiersmen of the American Old West and Indigenous peoples of the Americas, woodcraft was generally little known to the British Army but well-known to the American scout Burnham.[5] These skills eventually formed the basis of what is now called scoutcraft, the fundamentals of Scouting. Both men recognised that wars in Africa were changing markedly and the British Army needed to adapt; so during their joint scouting missions, Baden-Powell and Burnham discussed the concept of a broad training programme in woodcraft for young men, rich in exploration, tracking, fieldcraft, and self-reliance.[10]
[source]

as well as Peter van Wyk's 2003 book "Burnham: King of Scouts" from Trafford Publishing (ISBN 1-4122-0028-8).

You don't know what you're talking about. Have you been involved in Scouts?
 

dcsports

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I suspect this is legal maneuvering. A shot over the bow of opposing council to encourage reasonable settlement. They are saying that if they shoot for the moon in court, they won't get it.

I think this is much different than the church situation. Boy Scouts is a much smaller and leaner organization, and doesn't have a lot of assets outside of it's program facilities. Any settlements will come out of operations, and there's only so much you can take there without losing membership.

I think the Boy Scouts wants to do right by victims, but it's a much different organization now. They learned from their mistakes. It's not right to expect massive punitive damages lawsuits.
 

TU Curmudgeon

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I have mixed feeling about the Scouts, even though I allow my own son to participate in it. But I will give them credit for implementing multiple new measures to help prevent such violations in the future. Adults are not allowed to be alone with the kids. All adults, even if not in leadership positions, must undergo online training and pass the exams in order to go on functions like camping. The training explains the rules for how adults should engage with the kids and what to look out for. It isn’t perfect, but it is about the best that can be expected.

No problem with what the BSA has done to prevent future occurrences (with equal knowledge that it isn't perfect).

The problem is that the BSA is also doing what the RCC Inc. is doing and mouthing platitudes of regret and compassion while making it as difficult as possible for the admitted victims to receive recompense.

I will, however, freely give the BSA credit for NOT continuing its attempts at covering up what has happened in the past and for NOT using all of the resources of the BSA to protect leaders who abused or leaders who covered up.

If I could say the same thing about the RCC Inc. I'd be a lot happier.
 

TU Curmudgeon

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You don't know what you're talking about. Have you been involved in Scouts?

Did you happen to notice what I actually said?

And that was that Lord Baden-Powell (who is recognized by even the BSA as "The Founder of Scouting") originally intended "Scouting" to provide fodder for the military?

You do know that "Scouting" was not invented in the United States of America, don't you?
 

TU Curmudgeon

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I suspect this is legal maneuvering. A shot over the bow of opposing council to encourage reasonable settlement. They are saying that if they shoot for the moon in court, they won't get it.

I think this is much different than the church situation. Boy Scouts is a much smaller and leaner organization, and doesn't have a lot of assets outside of it's program facilities. Any settlements will come out of operations, and there's only so much you can take there without losing membership.

I think the Boy Scouts wants to do right by victims, but it's a much different organization now. They learned from their mistakes. It's not right to expect massive punitive damages lawsuits.

As a generality, I agree with the last sentence. However, there are some actions of the BSA leadership which DO call for punitive damages to be paid by the BSA. Those action would involve any covering up of abusive instances and/or refusal to take action where there were reasonable grounds to at least commence investigations into allegations of abusive instances.

The problem, at law, is that the actions are against the perpetrators and the BSA - jointly and severally. Any motion to sever the defendants would likely fail because of the interrelationship of the cases against the defendants. That interrelationship would necessitate a plethora of individual lawsuits many of which would involved duplicating evidence from one to the other.

True, the courts can (and likely will) apportion liability, but that only means that one defendant can recover from another defendant if the plaintiff recovers the a disproportionate share of the judgment from the defendant who seeks to recover from the defendant from whom the plaintiff has recovered less than their proportional share.
 

dcsports

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As a generality, I agree with the last sentence. However, there are some actions of the BSA leadership which DO call for punitive damages to be paid by the BSA. Those action would involve any covering up of abusive instances and/or refusal to take action where there were reasonable grounds to at least commence investigations into allegations of abusive instances.

The problem, at law, is that the actions are against the perpetrators and the BSA - jointly and severally. Any motion to sever the defendants would likely fail because of the interrelationship of the cases against the defendants. That interrelationship would necessitate a plethora of individual lawsuits many of which would involved duplicating evidence from one to the other.

True, the courts can (and likely will) apportion liability, but that only means that one defendant can recover from another defendant if the plaintiff recovers the a disproportionate share of the judgment from the defendant who seeks to recover from the defendant from whom the plaintiff has recovered less than their proportional share.

The thing is the BSA has never denied responsibility. (Generally - I don't know the details of any specific cases.) They've admitted they didn't do enough to protect youth, and have put in place significant protections since. They've said they want to settle and compensate the victims. The problem is that many of the plaintiffs (or at least their attorneys) see dollar signs. I think this is a warning that they simply don't have the deep pockets to support multi-million dollar settlements, or a big class action.
 

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Did you happen to notice what I actually said?

And that was that Lord Baden-Powell (who is recognized by even the BSA as "The Founder of Scouting") originally intended "Scouting" to provide fodder for the military?

You do know that "Scouting" was not invented in the United States of America, don't you?

I sure as hell do know that.
 

TU Curmudgeon

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The thing is the BSA has never denied responsibility. (Generally - I don't know the details of any specific cases.) They've admitted they didn't do enough to protect youth, and have put in place significant protections since. They've said they want to settle and compensate the victims. The problem is that many of the plaintiffs (or at least their attorneys) see dollar signs. I think this is a warning that they simply don't have the deep pockets to support multi-million dollar settlements, or a big class action.

Change your first sentence to "The thing is the BSA has never denied responsibility - once it became impossible to plausibly deny that anything at all had happened." and I'll agree with you.

Once it was caught, I will admit that (except for its actions to frustrate any judgments against it) the BSA has been MUCH more responsible and caring than the RCC Inc. has been.

I agree that there are times when it is really unfortunate that an organization simply has to shut up shop because it has done more damage than it can pay for - but that possibility should not stop the organization being held fully liable for the damage that it allowed to be done by people under its umbrella.

There is ZERO stopping the local organizations from disbanding and then reforming immediately under a new name like "American Scouts" so that the local organizations can carry on the work that they do that is beneficial. There is nothing stopping "World Scouting" from assisting "American Scouts" in providing the same facilities that the BSA currently supplies. If that means that the national organization of "American Scouts" ends up being run by people who are more concerned with providing the beneficial aspects of scouting than they are with collecting million dollar plus salaries that wouldn't distress me at all.

Would it distress you?
 

dcsports

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Change your first sentence to "The thing is the BSA has never denied responsibility - once it became impossible to plausibly deny that anything at all had happened." and I'll agree with you.

Once it was caught, I will admit that (except for its actions to frustrate any judgments against it) the BSA has been MUCH more responsible and caring than the RCC Inc. has been.

No, that wouldn't be correct. Yes, the Boy Scouts struggled in the late 80's, as many organizations did, with how to cope with allegations of sexual abuse. They developed a very aggressive program for the protection of youth... in 1988. Yes, a big investigative report by the Washington Times in... 1991... revealed the shocking scope of the issue, but the Boy Scouts never disputed it was a concern or that they shared responsiblity.

I agree that there are times when it is really unfortunate that an organization simply has to shut up shop because it has done more damage than it can pay for - but that possibility should not stop the organization being held fully liable for the damage that it allowed to be done by people under its umbrella.

There is ZERO stopping the local organizations from disbanding and then reforming immediately under a new name like "American Scouts" so that the local organizations can carry on the work that they do that is beneficial. There is nothing stopping "World Scouting" from assisting "American Scouts" in providing the same facilities that the BSA currently supplies. If that means that the national organization of "American Scouts" ends up being run by people who are more concerned with providing the beneficial aspects of scouting than they are with collecting million dollar plus salaries that wouldn't distress me at all.

Would it distress you?

Scrap the organization and start from scrap, with no organizational infrastructure? It would not be possible to restart it, and we'd lose out on a great organization. It's also not a realistic notion. What would happen is the organization would go into bankruptcy protection, and likely continue operations much as it has been.

And yes, I'm disappointed with the salary of the CEO -- a issue with MANY non-profits -- but that's one issue, and a red herring with regards to this issue.
 

TU Curmudgeon

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No, that wouldn't be correct. Yes, the Boy Scouts struggled in the late 80's, as many organizations did, with how to cope with allegations of sexual abuse. They developed a very aggressive program for the protection of youth... in 1988. Yes, a big investigative report by the Washington Times in... 1991... revealed the shocking scope of the issue, but the Boy Scouts never disputed it was a concern or that they shared responsiblity.

Indeed, the investigative report did reveal that there were problems, and one of the problems that the investigation revealed was that the BSA had covered up and minimized the existence of a problem for years.

So there were, in fact, TWO "problems", the first was the individual cases of abuse and the second was the collective attempt to obscure the fact that the abuse had even occurred.

The individual abuse problem cannot be laid at the feet of the BSA, and I specifically do NOT do so. That problem arose in a cultural milieu where it wasn't very likely that it would be looked for since the entire issue of "homosexuality" was pretty much taboo. The BSA would not allow anyone who was openly homosexual to become affiliated with scouting, and (quite frankly) never looked behind the facade of those who were "passing" - because that "just wasn't done".

Scrap the organization and start from scrap, with no organizational infrastructure? It would not be possible to restart it, and we'd lose out on a great organization.

If the organization cannot be restarted, doesn't that tell you that it's time for it to pass on?

What would happen is the organization would go into bankruptcy protection, and likely continue operations much as it has been.

Which is likely what will happen - with the BSA placing its assets beyond the reach of any judgment creditors (who would be lumped in with all of the other unsecured creditors) AND being absolved of the need to take any further steps to rectify the damage that the institutional actions of the BSA caused when it concealed the INDIVIDUAL abusive actions of certain leaders at lower levels.

And yes, I'm disappointed with the salary of the CEO -- a issue with MANY non-profits -- but that's one issue, and a red herring with regards to this issue.

The amount that an organization that is under Chapter 11 reorganization continues to pay out to its employees - especially when that amount is then no longer available to provide restitution/assistance to the victims of the abuse that occurred is not, in my opinion, irrelevant.

Possibly the upper echelon management of the BSA should review


A Scout is:

TRUSTWORTHY. Tell the truth and keep promises. People can depend on you.

LOYAL. Show that you care about your family, friends, Scout leaders, school, and country.

HELPFUL. Volunteer to help others without expecting a reward.

FRIENDLY. Be a friend to everyone, even people who are very different from you.

COURTEOUS. Be polite to everyone and always use good manners.

KIND. Treat others as you want to be treated . Never harm or kill any living thing without good reason.

OBEDIENT. Follow the rules of your family, school, and pack. Obey the laws of your community and country.

CHEERFUL. Look for the bright side of life. Cheerfully do tasks that come your way. Try to help others be happy.

THRIFTY. Work to pay your own way. Try not to be wasteful. Use time, food, supplies, and natural resources wisely.

BRAVE. Face difficult situations even when you feel afraid. Do what you think is right despite what others might be doing or saying.

CLEAN. Keep your body and mind fit . Help keep your home and community clean.

REVERENT. Be reverent toward God. Be faithful in your religious duties. Respect the beliefs of others.

(especially the bolded portions).
 
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