Born a boy, 8 year old allowed to live as a girl

[Goshin]

They are the opposite sex. They are not compatible with their body. That is proven.

In what manner is it proven? Has a gene, or a specific mix of horomones, or a specific brain structure, present at birth, been proven to be the cause of transgenderism? Has there been a study finding that the vast majority of transgendered had "X" physiological condition at birth?

Or is it proven because many psychologists say it is? I would consider that a thin basis to put this on.


G.

 

[Goshin]

You can be in touch with your sexual nature before you are sexual. Transgenderism is not a sexual disorder in the sense that it is based on sex. It is gender dysphoria. It evolves the entire gender of a person.

The thought process mannerisms likes and dislikes. Sex is the last thing it deals with.

As I pointed out earlier, there are Doctors who treat the transgendered professionally who dispute whether pre-adolescent GID is established fact, and whether most early-childhood cases "get over it" later:

Dr. Ken Zucker, on NPR, regarding transgender in children:



Q:Theoretically, if you got a kid at an early stage — 2 or 3 — even if the child were on the far side of the spectrum and really had a lot of behaviors that seemed to point in the direction of a transgender identity, do you feel like you could take that child and make that child feel comfortable being the sex he or she was born with?

A:Clinically, I would say yes. I've seen many kids over the years present with all the indicators of GID, and in terms of my quantitative measures they're very extreme. But the follow-up studies I've done, and others too, show [that] a substantial majority of kids seen for GID in childhood show desistance — that is, when they're older they don't want to be the other sex. We just published a study of 25 girls we first saw in childhood and found that only 12 percent seem to have persistent gender dysphoria when they're older. We find similar rates of persistence in boys.

Q:What do you think of the alternative approach — the approach that allows kids to transition to the opposite sex at an early age?

A:In the last few years, what one is starting to hear about at conferences is this group of therapists and parents who will conceptualize young children as having transgender or gender variant identity. There are some parents and therapists suggesting that the best way to help these kids is to encourage an early gender role change. So, I've seen reports of parents enrolling their 5-year-old biological male child in kindergarten as a girl, for example. That's a very different therapeutic approach than the one I take.

The therapists supporting a child's transition early, I have characterized them in a half serious way as liberal essentialists. On the surface, the approach comes across as very humanistic, liberal, accepting, tolerant of diversity. But I think the hidden assumption is that they believe the child's cross-gender identity is entirely caused by biological factors. That's why I call them essentialists. Liberals have always been critical of biological reductionism, but here they embrace it. I think that conceptual approach is astonishingly naive and simplistic, and I think it's wrong.
I would predict if we followed kids, longitudinally, who are being told "do what you want" — or encouraging early gender role change — they would be much more likely in adolescence or adulthood to go through hormonal and surgical sex change than kids being seen in a psychotherapeutic way, and even probably than kids where people don't do anything active.

Q:What you're saying is that this approach essentially tracks them into a transgender identity?

A:That would be my prediction, yes.

 

[Inferno]

In what manner is it proven? Has a gene, or a specific mix of horomones, or a specific brain structure, present at birth, been proven to be the cause of transgenderism? Has there been a study finding that the vast majority of transgendered had "X" physiological condition at birth?

Or is it proven because many psychologists say it is? I would consider that a thin basis to put this on.


G.

It is proven by psychological testing and study. I made a thread with the test. You are welcome to take it if you like. I will even post the link for you.

http://www.debatepolitics.com/sex-sexuality/48612-you-transgender-candidate-test.html

 

[Inferno]

As I pointed out earlier, there are Doctors who treat the transgendered professionally who dispute whether pre-adolescent GID is established fact, and whether most early-childhood cases "get over it" later:

You may have misread all of my posts but I have said in all of them that any early diagnosis should not be acted upon in any major way. There should be no physical alterations done to the child until he/she is beyond adolescence. He should be at least 16 to 18 before any thing is set in stone.

This has been my theme throughout. If by the child's mannerisms it is thought to be the case and he wants to dress as a girl that is fine. It should not be forced and he/she should have a daily choice as to what to wear.

 

[Inferno]

Gender Identity Disorder DSM IV Diagnosis

Diagnostic Features

There are two components of Gender Identity Disorder, both of which must be present to make the diagnosis. Thee must be evidence of a strong and persistent gross-gender identification, which is the desire to be, or the insistence that one is of the other sex (Criteria A). This cross-gender identification must not merely be a desire for any perceived cultural advantages of being the other sex. there must also be evidence of persistent discomfort about one’s assigned sex or a sense of inappropriateness in the gender role of that sex (Criteria B). The diagnosis is not made if the individual has a concurrent physical intersex condition (e.g., androgen insensitivity syndrome or congenital adrenal hyperplasia) (Criteria C). To make the diagnosis, there must be evidence of clinically significant distress or impairment in social, occupational, or other important areas of functioning (Criteria D).

In boys, the cross gender identification is manifested by a marked preoccupation with traditionally feminine activities. They may have a preference for dressing in girls’ or women’s clothes or may improvise such items from available materials when genuine articles are unavailable. Towels, aprons, and scarves are often used to represent long hair or skirts. There is a strong attraction for the stereotypical games and pastimes of girls. They particularly enjoy playing house, drawing pictures of beautiful girls and princesses, and watching television or videos of their favorite female-type dolls, such as Barbie, are often their favorite toys, and girls are their preferred playmates. When playing "house", these boys role-play female figures. Most commonly "mother roles", and often are quite preoccupied with female fantasy figures. they avoid rough-and-tumble play and competitive sports and have little interest in cars and trucks or other no-aggressive but stereotypical boy’s toys. They may express a wish to be a girl and assert that they will grow up to be a woman. they may insist on sitting to urinate and pretend not to have a penis by pushing it in between their legs. More rarely, boys with Gender Identity Disorder may state that they find their penis or testes disgusting, that they want to remove them, or that they have, or wish to have, a vagina.

SpringerLink - Journal Article


Gender Dysphoria Organization Research and Education - Medical Sex Hormone Tests


Gender Identity Disorder

These are all sites that deal with gender disorder.

 

[Goshin]

It is proven by psychological testing and study. I made a thread with the test. You are welcome to take it if you like. I will even post the link for you.

http://www.debatepolitics.com/sex-sexuality/48612-you-transgender-candidate-test.html

If it is a purely psychological phenomenon without any telltale biological components that can be identified at birth, then I have to question whether it can be legitimately considered "assigned wrong sex at birth". Without a biological cause that can be measured, it could just as easily be considered a psychological disorder that should not be cured by changing the body to suit the delusion.

I don't claim to be an expert on this subject, I'm just expressing my doubts that something purely "in your head" is a sufficient basis to warp your body, absent biological evidence that it is inborn.

If it isn't present as something identifiable biologically at birth, then it might be a learned behavior or one brought on by environmental pressures.

I'm just sayin'... so far I'm not finding evidence to accept this as "proven beyond question to be an inborn thing that can't be fixed."

G.

 

[legojenn]

Yeah, I agree, however, it doesn't help our cause. Lets be honest, the transgendered look like Middle America's most heinous and stereotyped conception of sexual freaks. The transgendered are an easy token for anti-gay forces to hold up and say "look at his weirdo, by allowing gay marriage you validate this."

It's kind of ironic since vital statistics are often edited quickly before or after GRS and transsexuals have been long allowed to marry members of their now opposite sex.

 

[Inferno]

If it is a purely psychological phenomenon without any telltale biological components that can be identified at birth, then I have to question whether it can be legitimately considered "assigned wrong sex at birth". Without a biological cause that can be measured, it could just as easily be considered a psychological disorder that should not be cured by changing the body to suit the delusion.

I don't claim to be an expert on this subject, I'm just expressing my doubts that something purely "in your head" is a sufficient basis to warp your body, absent biological evidence that it is inborn.

If it isn't present as something identifiable biologically at birth, then it might be a learned behavior or one brought on by environmental pressures.

I'm just sayin'... so far I'm not finding evidence to accept this as "proven beyond question to be an inborn thing that can't be fixed."

G.

It is more a mental disorder. It is called Gender Dysphoria. It is funny though that a mental disorder can be cured with a surgery isn't it. It is a cure too. It ends the problem. That is pretty interesting. Most of the time people are satisfied with the results and live a normal and happy life.

The rocess to cure this mental problem is all done by physical means.

 

[Hatuey]

I don't think this kid is old enough to comprehend what being transgendered is and I think it's too early in his development for the experts to determine such a condition if it does in fact exist. I mean there are a million characteristics about a person which can be determined through observation from an early age. But I don't think transgenderism is one of these. There are probably a million studies that contradict me but I just don't believe a person's correct 'sex' can be determined by strangers.

As far as whether he should be housed with boys/girls in the locker rooms etc. Boys. He's not physically a girl or in the process of even 'looking' like a girl.

 

[jamesrage]

Young Boy To Publicly Live Life As Girl - Omaha- msnbc.com





Right decision?

Discuss.

Hell no its not the right decision,the parents should be arrested for child abuse. HE is 8 years old. What the hell does a 8 year old know about anything?


Savage was right when he said liberalism is a mental disorder. Because only a liberal is retarded enough to play along with this nonsense.


If little Billy thinks he is superman do we play along with his delusion like some ****en idiot and let him go to school as superman and call him Clark Kent when he is not wearing a superman costume ? What if little Timmy thinks he is a cow,do we play along with his delusion like some ****en idiot and put a cow costume on him and let him go graze in a pasture and refer to him as a cow? A responsible parent wouldn't play along with such nonsense and get him some real help.

 

[jallman]

Hell no its not the right decision,the parents should be arrested for child abuse. HE is 8 years old. What the hell does a 8 year old know about anything?


Savage was right when he said liberalism is a mental disorder. Because only a liberal is retarded enough to play along with this nonsense.


If little Billy thinks he is superman do we play along with his delusion like some ****en idiot and let him go to school as superman and call him Clark Kent when he is not wearing a superman costume ? What if little Timmy thinks he is a cow,do we play along with his delusion like some ****en idiot and put a cow costume on him and let him go graze in a pasture and refer to him as a cow? A responsible parent wouldn't play along with such nonsense and get him some real help.

This is exactly why transgender people have such a hard time dealing with life. I think since we refer to you as a person and let you interact with people like one who has a point, it's only fair we let this boy believe he's a girl, too. I mean, since we're letting people pretend to be relevant and all, why not let this boy pretend to be a girl. Fair for both of you, no?

 

[Dav]

This is exactly why transgender people have such a hard time dealing with life. I think since we refer to you as a person and let you interact with people like one who has a point, it's only fair we let this boy believe he's a girl, too. I mean, since we're letting people pretend to be relevant and all, why not let this boy pretend to be a girl. Fair for both of you, no?

I think it has more to do with the fact that the boy is 8 and very young and prone to delusions, i.e. might not have any sort of mental condition at all, yet he is being treated as if he has no choice but to be in a situation where he is ridiculed by his peers.

 

[Inferno]

I think it has more to do with the fact that the boy is 8 and very young and prone to delusions, i.e. might not have any sort of mental condition at all, yet he is being treated as if he has no choice but to be in a situation where he is ridiculed by his peers.

prone to delusions????????????

 

[Dav]

prone to delusions????????????

He is young. Very young. He has an active imagination. What's wrong with saying he's prone to delusions?

 

[jallman]

He is young. Very young. He has an active imagination. What's wrong with saying he's prone to delusions?

Yeah, I think I am still gonna go with the doctors on this one.:shrug:

 

[Inferno]

He is young. Very young. He has an active imagination. What's wrong with saying he's prone to delusions?

I could make a statement like that about old people that live alone or religious people. Delusions are a form of mental illness. Sorry it is very drastic to say that.

 

[Oftencold]

Well I guess since the doctors actually made the examinations and we got a little snipet of the whole picture, I guess I am gonna go with the doctors on this one instead of a villager from Yakutat opining from a position of conjecture and second guessing. :shrug:

Great surfing there in Yakutat and the Glass Door Bar can be somewhat entertaining when it gets rowdy.

The Glass Door hasn't gotten rowdy in years, and no true villager, I.

 

[jallman]

The Glass Door hasn't gotten rowdy in years, and no true villager, I.

I can remember a night not 2 years ago that it got rowdy up in there. I had a blast.

 

[Dav]

I could make a statement like that about old people that live alone or religious people. Delusions are a form of mental illness. Sorry it is very drastic to say that.

We're talking about kids here. Don't you remember being a kid and thinking you could talk to animals, and things like that? There's just no way to know if this is that type of thing or if it's a serious mental disorder.

 

[Inferno]

We're talking about kids here. Don't you remember being a kid and thinking you could talk to animals, and things like that? There's just no way to know if this is that type of thing or if it's a serious mental disorder.

You observe the child and see how he/she reacts to stimuli. You don't pressure the child.

That is the way one would start the process.

 

[Goshin]

You observe the child and see how he/she reacts to stimuli. You don't pressure the child.

That is the way one would start the process.

Do we know this is how it was done, or is there a possibility that someone influenced this child to have this belief? Or encouraged it?

Dav is right, children this age are inclined to believe all sorts of wild things sometimes.

jallman
Yeah, I think I am still gonna go with the doctors on this one.

I posted the opinion of a doctor, who treats transgendered professionally, whose opinion is that many pre-pubescent children who shows signs of transgender disorder grow out of it before adulthood. This was on NPR, hardly a conservative rag.

Inferno's response was "yes, this is why you don't allow surgery or anything drastic so young."
IMO, sending the boy to school dressed as a girl and being referred to and treated as a girl, is a bit on the drastic side.

I'd explore all avenues of curing the delusion first before catering to it. And yes, if you have a biologically male body, and no identifiable physical or hormonal traits to support transgenderism, believing yourself to be female could be classified as a delusion. If I am not mistaken, that is how it was once viewed.

If we were talking about an adult, that would be a bit different. I'd still consider it dubious in the absence of hemophroditism, or hormonal imbalance, or some other biologically-idenfiable cause (as opposed to purely psych), but at least an adult is assumed to be mature and able to make decisions for their self.

This, however, is an 8yo kid. I know an otherwise-normal 8yo kid who believes he can learn to breathe underwater if he could just practice enough. :shock:

 

[alexa]

Do we know this is how it was done, or is there a possibility that someone influenced this child to have this belief? Or encouraged it?

Dav is right, children this age are inclined to believe all sorts of wild things sometimes.

I posted the opinion of a doctor, who treats transgendered professionally, whose opinion is that many pre-pubescent children who shows signs of transgender disorder grow out of it before adulthood. This was on NPR, hardly a conservative rag.

Inferno's response was "yes, this is why you don't allow surgery or anything drastic so young."
IMO, sending the boy to school dressed as a girl and being referred to and treated as a girl, is a bit on the drastic side.

I'd explore all avenues of curing the delusion first before catering to it. And yes, if you have a biologically male body, and no identifiable physical or hormonal traits to support transgenderism, believing yourself to be female could be classified as a delusion. If I am not mistaken, that is how it was once viewed.

If we were talking about an adult, that would be a bit different. I'd still consider it dubious in the absence of hemophroditism, or hormonal imbalance, or some other biologically-idenfiable cause (as opposed to purely psych), but at least an adult is assumed to be mature and able to make decisions for their self.

This, however, is an 8yo kid. I know an otherwise-normal 8yo kid who believes he can learn to breathe underwater if he could just practice enough. :shock:

The biggest worry is of course that this behaviour could have been encouraged.

I am not comfortable with Doctors dealing with things which are not physical. I also think observing is not sufficient to know where the child is coming from.

The child needs people who can go with the child into their world and find the child's real needs. There are clearly children suffering, some reported as young as the boy in the guardian article at ten who killed himself.

I am quite happy with the Tavistock Institute which the Guardian article is talking about through other things and if you read their article they seem to take care to find out what is going on with each child.

Viv Groskop on children who believe they are transgender | Society | The Guardian

I do though also have concerns about the child going to school dressed as a girl and if I am honest, I would not have known how to deal with it if it had been a pupil at my own child's school even if I had received a leaflet.

If it is mainly psychological, I would need to think most children could be offered support in a way which did not cause them extra problems at school - through play therapy as an outlet and total recognition and acceptance of them as they are at that time. With that I would have thought most children would also see the value of fitting in at school. If they were recognised and felt accepted as who they were, I believe it is less likely they would feel the need to 'act out' by demanding to wear for instance, girls cloths to school.

I just don't like the idea of it being named so early because in reality it is impossible to say so with reliability. Most kids do grow out of it.

Possibly one of the things it highlights is the need at times to give children top quality psychological care to help them through confusing times so that they by themselves in time will be able to come out the other end with the right answer for themselves.

 

[Oftencold]

I can remember a night not 2 years ago that it got rowdy up in there. I had a blast.

If I didn't have to jail guard, nor show up with the ambulance, then it probably wasn't what we'd call rowdy.

The Glass Door used to be a constant source of arrests and EMS calls.

I suppose it could have gotten agitated in a minor way some night when I was out of town, but there hasn't even been a knifing or a major assault there in several years, as I said.

I did hear, interestingly enough, that the investigation into the death of the woman at the Glacier Bear, in the 90's is being reopened. If you've never heard of that one, basically the husband got off by claiming that his wife surprised him and he thought that she was a bear, so he shot her.

Apparently, another one of his girlfriends must have surprised him last year, somewhere in the Lesser 49.

 

[Real Talk]

1) These are very natural and seen in almost all girls and boys. It is the nature of things.

2) There would be no other way at the age of two to know what the child is thinking. The standards for gender are what was being used when the child was two.

3) How else would a doctor be able to say that this child may be transgendered if not by the standards?

1) For the most part, bull****. Its all generalisation and social constructs.

2) Adopting behavious girls adopt, and acting as a tomgirl is a little odd. More odd than the other way around. But totaly within the realms of normal human behaviour for people of either sex.

3) Im not sure I believe in 'transgenered', as anything other than a physical term for people who had treatments. I mean in many Island societites theres a casts of people who adopt womans labor, and act feminine. And theyre a pretty normal part of society. Are these individuals 'transgendered?'. Some would probably say yes, others would say no. Id say, I dont care. Thats thir business. I respect the peoples involved lifestyle choice as people. There is no standard I seek to hold them to other than how they treat others. But none the less, im nto sure the term transgendered means a lot as anything other than a description of behaviour.

 

[jamesrage]

This is exactly why transgender people have such a hard time dealing with life.

Transgendered people have a hard time dealing with life because they are insane and they others to play along with their mental disorder just like you and the other pro-insanity idiots are by referring to that little boy as a she.(Although I think his parents and quack shrinks are the ones who are insane and the little boy has been led by them to believe this nonsense that he is a girl) You people trying to play along with their insanity doesn't help,sure it facilitates their delusions that they are a female or that they are male but in reality they are still what ever gender they were really born and what there chromosomes say they are.

I think since we refer to you as a person and let you interact with people like one who has a point, it's only fair we let this boy believe he's a girl, too.

Good one Lennie, why not go play in the dirt with the other idiots.You can talk about how you get to tend the rabbits.