• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

Born a boy, 8 year old allowed to live as a girl

I just don't see it. From my understanding and personal experience transgendered can and do function on an equal level in society.

They do when the problem has been fixed in some way. They can fit in but there is great depression and emotional trauma inside. It can and does lead to health problems.
 
Boys a girls learn differently, thats why I'm not in favor of nationalized schools but thats a debate for another day and sub forum



I'm calling BS on this boy wanting to be a girl at 2.

There is zero chance a child that age knows what gender he or she wants to be. That is complete bunk.

They do not have the reasoning skills what so ever to make that determination.

I haven't been completely honest about this but I do at times think this is actually a mental disorder and not a simple acceptance problem.

I'm not completely comfortable about this.

The child 2 is not saying anything about his gender. It was something that would have to have been noted by others. The child is now 8 and there is a concern and he will live as a female now. It hurts nothing as they are doing nothing to alter him physically.
 
I guess what I always come back to is it can't be corrected. You can't make a guy a girl or vice versa. It's not possible. What you can do is help them better present as the desired gender. So this makes it more difficult for me when discussing the moral implications of allowing powerful hormone treatments and/or surgical intervention to be part of the "treatment" when it comes to young children. A transgender is always going to be transgendered with or without surgery, with or without hormones. To me it's like allowing an anorexic to have oodles and oodles of lipo. It will help them bring their bodily presentation to others more in line with what they feel they should be but it in no way cures or heals the anorexia.

Physically you can give a woman a penis. You can remove the breasts. They can grow facial hair and even get an adams apple. the skin can be made tougher and the far end emotions that females tend to have that most males do not are gone. Most of the mental pieces are already in place. The vice even gets lower on testosterone. You do essentially have a male.

The same is true for a male to female TG. You essentially have a female.

The only thing that can't be done is mother or father a child. That they can't do the rest its impressive from the looks.

There is a band called Coyote Grace they are kind of a folk band. It is two people Grace and Joe. If you look them up online you will see Joe as a fairly good looking male. He was a female. It would be hard to tell that this was the case.
 
This one seems kind of iffy to me. 8 seems too young to make that kind of decision; he/she could easily just be in childlike delusion. I'd draw the line somewhere between 14 and 16.

That is probably the age where a final decision will be made. If he is happy in a dress that is great. Any physical alterations would wait.
 
Physically you can give a woman a penis. You can remove the breasts. They can grow facial hair and even get an adams apple. the skin can be made tougher and the far end emotions that females tend to have that most males do not are gone. Most of the mental pieces are already in place. The vice even gets lower on testosterone. You do essentially have a male.

The same is true for a male to female TG. You essentially have a female.

The only thing that can't be done is mother or father a child. That they can't do the rest its impressive from the looks.

There is a band called Coyote Grace they are kind of a folk band. It is two people Grace and Joe. If you look them up online you will see Joe as a fairly good looking male. He was a female. It would be hard to tell that this was the case.

If a male to female transgender commits a crime, and their DNA is found at the crime scene, the police will be looking for a male. At this juncture, its impossible for us to actually switch a male to a female. Its all smoke and mirrors. No matter what they feel inside, they have the genetic code for the sex they were born into. They certainley are free to do what they want to change their appearances to reflect what they feel, we can even alter how they are legally recognized sexually, but it does not change what they really are on a genetic level.
 
I'm calling BS on this boy wanting to be a girl at 2.

There is zero chance a child that age knows what gender he or she wants to be. That is complete bunk.

They do not have the reasoning skills what so ever to make that determination.

I haven't been completely honest about this but I do at times think this is actually a mental disorder and not a simple acceptance problem.

I'm not completely comfortable about this.

Well there certainly doesn't seem to be any evidence of anything physical in children.

I will just leave the decision of adults to do what they feel is best for them.

I am worried about the early age that people are even looking into the possibility of this because I know how so often creating theories on problems can create the problems.....however

when I read things like this
The plight of children with gender identity disorder has made headlines this year. In February an inquest was held into the death of Cameron McWilliams, a 10-year-old boy from Doncaster, who hanged himself. The court heard that he had asked permission to wear makeup and girls' underwear. "It was apparent he was unhappy and said he wanted to be a girl," his mother said. "He did like girls' things."

Viv Groskop on children who believe they are transgender | Society | The Guardian

I feel a need to stay open.

I am concerned for this 8 year old but it has been done. It is looking at how we progress from here. The above quote is of a child who clearly needed help. What help? Can we be sure? I do not know. I believe each of us is unique. Unless/until we have physical evidence for children I feel we need to tread with great care that this does not become self fulfilling prophesies for the enormous number of boys who are not macho but at the same time we do not want children suffering like the quoted boy did.
 
If a male to female transgender commits a crime, and their DNA is found at the crime scene, the police will be looking for a male. At this juncture, its impossible for us to actually switch a male to a female. Its all smoke and mirrors. No matter what they feel inside, they have the genetic code for the sex they were born into. They certainley are free to do what they want to change their appearances to reflect what they feel, we can even alter how they are legally recognized sexually, but it does not change what they really are on a genetic level.

The DNA is traceable to the person not the gender. What does the genetic level have to do with it really? Why would that matter?

If the penis or the vagina work what difference do the cells make? After all sexuality is partly illusion anyway. We are drawn to be sexual. So what matters are those components.

Many TG M 2 F and F 2 M are so well done that few can tell. Gynecologists can't always tell a real vagina from a SRS constructed one. I suppose that is really what counts.
 
Well there certainly doesn't seem to be any evidence of anything physical in children.

I will just leave the decision of adults to do what they feel is best for them.

I am worried about the early age that people are even looking into the possibility of this because I know how so often creating theories on problems can create the problems.....however

when I read things like this

I feel a need to stay open.

I am concerned for this 8 year old but it has been done. It is looking at how we progress from here. The above quote is of a child who clearly needed help. What help? Can we be sure? I do not know. I believe each of us is unique. Unless/until we have physical evidence for children I feel we need to tread with great care that this does not become self fulfilling prophesies for the enormous number of boys who are not macho but at the same time we do not want children suffering like the quoted boy did.

The only evidence in children is the mannerisms and the reactions to stimuli.
 
The DNA is traceable to the person not the gender.

They physically observe the presence of either an XY or XX chromosome.

Yes, your one of the many things your dna says about you is your sex.
 
Yes I am a female most lesbians are females.

You were saying you're a gay man in your post, or I guess I just misunderstood it. Anyway, we agree (as I think most homosexuals do) that transgenderism and homosexuality and separate phenomenon.

I think it'd be better for the gay rights movement if we just let the transgender movement look after itself instead of trying to bring them with us.
 
The DNA is traceable to the person not the gender. What does the genetic level have to do with it really? Why would that matter?

If the penis or the vagina work what difference do the cells make? After all sexuality is partly illusion anyway. We are drawn to be sexual. So what matters are those components.

Many TG M 2 F and F 2 M are so well done that few can tell. Gynecologists can't always tell a real vagina from a SRS constructed one. I suppose that is really what counts.

Chromosomes.

I don't have a problem if people want to be transgender. Do what you want. But on a fundamental level you are still how you were born. If you were born a male, no amount of drugs, plastic surgery, etc... is going to switch you to an XX chromosome.
 
The only evidence in children is the mannerisms and the reactions to stimuli.

It is because there is no objective way to tell that I believe this is something with which we must take the greatest care.

I have known plenty of little boys who have seemed very girlie and their parents even seemed to like it but they later became quite macho little boys.

But I am more concerned about other little boys I have known who have been cute and not aggressive. This seemed to be their upbringing - well probably a bit of both - that is who they were and their upbringing.

Anything involving children has to be taken with the greatest care not to create stereotypes.
 
Last edited:
They physically observe the presence of either an XY or XX chromosome.

Yes, your one of the many things your dna says about you is your sex.

How many crimes do you actually think this is going to effect. How about fingerprints footprints. This is a nonsense point. It is hardly relevant to anything. It is a smoke and mirrors that focuses nothing on the reality of the 8 year old. If a person wears a wig and makeup they could be seen as a female too. So the police would be looking for a woman instead of a man.
 
You were saying you're a gay man in your post, or I guess I just misunderstood it. Anyway, we agree (as I think most homosexuals do) that transgenderism and homosexuality and separate phenomenon.

I think it'd be better for the gay rights movement if we just let the transgender movement look after itself instead of trying to bring them with us.

I think the transgender falls into a group needing a larger community to help them support their causes. What does happen is that people confuse that theirs is a gender issue and not a sexual issue. It all gets so confusing. Wouldn't it be nice if we just let people be who they are.
 
Chromosomes.

I don't have a problem if people want to be transgender. Do what you want. But on a fundamental level you are still how you were born. If you were born a male, no amount of drugs, plastic surgery, etc... is going to switch you to an XX chromosome.

Does that really matter? How important is that? What does that really have to do with anything when it comes to transgender? The mental makeup and the physical being don't match. The chromosomes don't make a difference. Why does this matter so much to you?
 
It is because there is no objective way to tell that I believe this is something with which we must take the greatest care.

I have known plenty of little boys who have seemed very girlie and their parents even seemed to like it but they later became quite macho little boys.

But I am more concerned about other little boys I have known who have been cute and not aggressive. This seemed to be their upbringing - well probably a bit of both - that is who they were and their upbringing.

Anything involving children has to be taken with the greatest care not to create stereotypes.

As I see this issue and our posts we really do agree. We both see the need to use great care at this early age not to have adults be an over riding opinion that forces the child to do something other than what he wants. I believe that we are on the same page in this. We also agree that any alterations should not occur until the child is of sufficient age as to make that choice on his own.
 
Does that really matter? How important is that? What does that really have to do with anything when it comes to transgender? The mental makeup and the physical being don't match. The chromosomes don't make a difference. Why does this matter so much to you?

It doesn't really. Like I said, I don't care one way or the other. Just on a scientific level, they are still what they were when they were born. We can recognize them legally, as whatever sex they feel they are, I'm fine with that as well. But it doesn't actually change their sex, on a genetic level.
 
I think the transgender falls into a group needing a larger community to help them support their causes. What does happen is that people confuse that theirs is a gender issue and not a sexual issue. It all gets so confusing. Wouldn't it be nice if we just let people be who they are.

Yeah, I agree, however, it doesn't help our cause. Lets be honest, the transgendered look like Middle America's most heinous and stereotyped conception of sexual freaks. The transgendered are an easy token for anti-gay forces to hold up and say "look at his weirdo, by allowing gay marriage you validate this."

Now, I actually have no problem validating the transgendered and generally only have the best intentions for them...but as a gay person I'd like MUCH more distance between our two communities. I am not transgendered, I don't know anyone who is transgendered, I don't hang out near transgendered people, we don't go to the same bars and we don't have the same interests.
 
It doesn't really. Like I said, I don't care one way or the other. Just on a scientific level, they are still what they were when they were born. We can recognize them legally, as whatever sex they feel they are, I'm fine with that as well. But it doesn't actually change their sex, on a genetic level.

So if it doesn't matter to me which i have said and it doesn't matter to you as you have said why then do you keep bringing it up?
 
So if it doesn't matter to me which i have said and it doesn't matter to you as you have said why then do you keep bringing it up?

To make the point that it is smoke and mirrors.
 
Yeah, I agree, however, it doesn't help our cause. Lets be honest, the transgendered look like Middle America's most heinous and stereotyped conception of sexual freaks. The transgendered are an easy token for anti-gay forces to hold up and say "look at his weirdo, by allowing gay marriage you validate this."

Now, I actually have no problem validating the transgendered and generally only have the best intentions for them...but as a gay person I'd like MUCH more distance between our two communities. I am not transgendered, I don't know anyone who is transgendered, I don't hang out near transgendered people, we don't go to the same bars and we don't have the same interests.

I am lesbian and am in no way desiring to be made a male. No thinks on that. I think what happens is that some people get a partial change more as a fetish idea than the actual transgender concept. I guess you could put them down as the shemale. It has little to do with gender but everything to do with fetish and sex. It is much harder to explain what is going on for them then for the real TG of the gay/ lesbian community.

The thing is with a TG that has had the full SRS and is on HRT they are able to marry as gays and lesbians are not. This adds to the struggle of all these issues.
 
As I see this issue and our posts we really do agree. We both see the need to use great care at this early age not to have adults be an over riding opinion that forces the child to do something other than what he wants. I believe that we are on the same page in this. We also agree that any alterations should not occur until the child is of sufficient age as to make that choice on his own.

This is what I think I would like. When a little one is apparently believing they are a different gender to the one they are and someone decides they should see a councilor, I would like them to visit highly skilled Rogerian therapists. Why them? Basically because they follow the client. They do not put any suggestions onto the client. Most Rogerian counselors will not even read notes which someone else has written about the client because they know that influences how they will think, feel and see the person.

Their interest is to get the client in contact with their inner feeling self and own resources. In this way I think people skilled in this art would be the best people to help these children. In the guardian article only 1/4 turned out to be transgendered so help of different sorts will be needed unique for each child's needs.

An additional reason why I think Rogerian Counselors would be good is because I think they were the people who invented child therapy - anyone read Dibs - in search of self?
 
This is what I think I would like. When a little one is apparently believing they are a different gender to the one they are and someone decides they should see a councilor, I would like them to visit highly skilled Rogerian therapists. Why them? Basically because they follow the client. They do not put any suggestions onto the client. Most Rogerian counselors will not even read notes which someone else has written about the client because they know that influences how they will think, feel and see the person.

Their interest is to get the client in contact with their inner feeling self and own resources. In this way I think people skilled in this art would be the best people to help these children. In the guardian article only 1/4 turned out to be transgendered so help of different sorts will be needed unique for each child's needs.

An additional reason why I think Rogerian Counselors would be good is because I think they were the people who invented child therapy - anyone read Dibs - in search of self?

As I said i really think we see this in the same way. the counselor needs to make an independent observation of the child. I don't see any harm in the fact that if doctors and counselors see that the child may very well be expressing the feminine that he be allowed to dress in that gender. It should still be a matter of choice. If he wants to wear a boy outfit then he should be allowed to do that. There should be no outside influence or as little as possible on the child that would have him make a wrong decision for his life.
 
Back
Top Bottom