Border wall and border security confusion

[year2late]

This is what is confusing to me.

Trump talks about wanting a concrete wall across the border to be paid for by Mexico.

Since then he has gone back and forth about the meaning of the wall and border security. He wants billions, but cannot definitively say what this wall is.

Then he lies and makes his followers believe Dems want no border security.

Here us what I want. A well thought out multifactorial plan on border security. If he believes the wall is integral to this plan, why.

Back up with facts.

After deciding what your border security plan is....if a wall is needed...know in advance it is concrete vs slats vs fencing...and for how much of the border. You should have facts to back this up. Also, what about other border security measures....facts based on what has been helpful with reasonable projections.

And last but not least, if you want democrats to listen....stop lying. Their idea of border security may be different than yours, but all dems I know in real life want secure borders.

 

[trouble13]

This is what is confusing to me.

Trump talks about wanting a concrete wall across the border to be paid for by Mexico.

Since then he has gone back and forth about the meaning of the wall and border security. He wants billions, but cannot definitively say what this wall is.

Then he lies and makes his followers believe Dems want no border security.

Here us what I want. A well thought out multifactorial plan on border security. If he believes the wall is integral to this plan, why.

Back up with facts.

After deciding what your border security plan is....if a wall is needed...know in advance it is concrete vs slats vs fencing...and for how much of the border. You should have facts to back this up. Also, what about other border security measures....facts based on what has been helpful with reasonable projections.

And last but not least, if you want democrats to listen....stop lying. Their idea of border security may be different than yours, but all dems I know in real life want secure borders.

You need to pass the bill before I can tell you what's in it

Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk

 

[year2late]

You need to pass the bill before I can tell you what's in it

Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk

Does that stop Trump for clearly defining what he is after.

He says one thing emphatically and then changes his mind when questioned....then goes back to the original premise when pressured.

Why not be clear and stop lying.

 

[Grand Mal]

This is what is confusing to me.

Trump talks about wanting a concrete wall across the border to be paid for by Mexico.

Since then he has gone back and forth about the meaning of the wall and border security. He wants billions, but cannot definitively say what this wall is.

Then he lies and makes his followers believe Dems want no border security.

Here us what I want. A well thought out multifactorial plan on border security. If he believes the wall is integral to this plan, why.

Back up with facts.

After deciding what your border security plan is....if a wall is needed...know in advance it is concrete vs slats vs fencing...and for how much of the border. You should have facts to back this up. Also, what about other border security measures....facts based on what has been helpful with reasonable projections.

And last but not least, if you want democrats to listen....stop lying. Their idea of border security may be different than yours, but all dems I know in real life want secure borders.

Good post. I'd like to add that most Americans voted against Trump and America elected a Democratic House so presumably most Americans aren't exactly committed to a wall atall.

 

[Nickyjo]

Part of the problem is that Trump doesn’t engage in much rational conversation about policy. It’s sort of his thing, style and bluster over substance. So he will get something out of this mess, claim victory no matter what happens, and move on to the next irrationality. Commentator today said he turns 1’s into 7’s and 6’s into 8’s. He’s never paid a price for his misbehavior and lies. Who can argue with success?

 

[MateoMtnClimber]

Does that stop Trump for clearly defining what he is after.

He says one thing emphatically and then changes his mind when questioned....then goes back to the original premise when pressured.

Why not be clear and stop lying.

Trump doesn't care about border security. He doesn't care about immigration, legal or illegal. He doesn't care about the US and Americans. He literally only cares about himself. He's a delusional psychopath, a schizophrenic narcissist, and a pathological liar. He wants a monument built to his vanity and for his butt boys and butt girls to say nice things about him on FOX News and Twitter. He'll never release a border security plan because he doesn't have one and it doesn't actually matter to him. Even his mindless worshippers don't even attempt to articulate a coherent plan (see above) because they're willing participants in this colossal con.

 

[marke]

This is what is confusing to me.

Trump talks about wanting a concrete wall across the border to be paid for by Mexico.

Since then he has gone back and forth about the meaning of the wall and border security. He wants billions, but cannot definitively say what this wall is.

Then he lies and makes his followers believe Dems want no border security.

Here us what I want. A well thought out multifactorial plan on border security. If he believes the wall is integral to this plan, why.

Back up with facts.

After deciding what your border security plan is....if a wall is needed...know in advance it is concrete vs slats vs fencing...and for how much of the border. You should have facts to back this up. Also, what about other border security measures....facts based on what has been helpful with reasonable projections.

And last but not least, if you want democrats to listen....stop lying. Their idea of border security may be different than yours, but all dems I know in real life want secure borders.

Each side needs to tone down the rhetoric and stop falsely accusing each other of lying. Very few of those wild accusations of lying have any real basis in the truth.

 

[Amelia]

This is what is confusing to me.

Trump talks about wanting a concrete wall across the border to be paid for by Mexico.

Since then he has gone back and forth about the meaning of the wall and border security. He wants billions, but cannot definitively say what this wall is.

Then he lies and makes his followers believe Dems want no border security.

Here us what I want. A well thought out multifactorial plan on border security. If he believes the wall is integral to this plan, why.

Back up with facts.

After deciding what your border security plan is....if a wall is needed...know in advance it is concrete vs slats vs fencing...and for how much of the border. You should have facts to back this up. Also, what about other border security measures....facts based on what has been helpful with reasonable projections.

And last but not least, if you want democrats to listen....stop lying. Their idea of border security may be different than yours, but all dems I know in real life want secure borders.

A comprehensive plan backed up with facts shouldn't be too much to ask.

 

[Grokmaster]

Good post. I'd like to add that most Americans voted against Trump and America elected a Democratic House so presumably most Americans aren't exactly committed to a wall atall.

Most people in most of the states VOTED FOR TRUMP (30 of them), and they also just ADDED GOP SEATS to the SENATE in A FIRST TERM MIDTERM....so I'd say that, in addition to being committed to a CONSTITUTIONAL USSC , Americans are committed to the Trump Agenda , indeed.

 

[Myview]

Each side needs to tone down the rhetoric and stop falsely accusing each other of lying. Very few of those wild accusations of lying have any real basis in the truth.

I don't know how to characterize Trump lies as anything other than lies. A fellow DP member I can tolerate when they are truth challenged. The President, NO.

 

[Myview]

Most people in most of the states VOTED FOR TRUMP (30 of them), and they also just ADDED GOP SEATS to the SENATE in A FIRST TERM MIDTERM....so I'd say that, in addition to being committed to a CONSTITUTIONAL USSC , Americans are committed to the Trump Agenda , indeed.[/QUOTE

Some Americans. I have faith in the SCOTUS but for different reasons than you do. Indeed.

 

[OscarLevant]

Part of the problem is that Trump doesn’t engage in much rational conversation about policy. It’s sort of his thing, style and bluster over substance. So he will get something out of this mess, claim victory no matter what happens, and move on to the next irrationality. Commentator today said he turns 1’s into 7’s and 6’s into 8’s. He’s never paid a price for his misbehavior and lies. Who can argue with success?

How does one negotiate with a person whose universe is filled with pure hype?

You watch Mcconnell, and other repubs tire of this president, it will happen.

 

[marke]

I don't know how to characterize Trump lies as anything other than lies. A fellow DP member I can tolerate when they are truth challenged. The President, NO.

I have been called a liar for things I said truthfully. I am not surprised hateful democrats call Trump a liar. They must have forgotten all the lies Hillary and Obama told them.

 

[Myview]

I have been called a liar for things I said truthfully. I am not surprised hateful democrats call Trump a liar. They must have forgotten all the lies Hillary and Obama told them.

Honorable respectful marke, I appreciate you sharing. At least you are venting which releases tension. I usually don't get involved in whataboutism narratives. They are about the past. I don't doubt that much of what Trump has to say that isn't factually true he believes is true.

 

[RaleBulgarian]

Most people in most of the states VOTED FOR TRUMP (30 of them), and they also just ADDED GOP SEATS to the SENATE in A FIRST TERM MIDTERM....so I'd say that, in addition to being committed to a CONSTITUTIONAL USSC , Americans are committed to the Trump Agenda , indeed.

You really do live in your own alternate reality.

I have been called a liar for things I said truthfully. I am not surprised hateful democrats call Trump a liar. They must have forgotten all the lies Hillary and Obama told them.

Living rent free. :2rofll:

 

[year2late]

Each side needs to tone down the rhetoric and stop falsely accusing each other of lying. Very few of those wild accusations of lying have any real basis in the truth.

What specifically is the left lying about in regards to boarder security?

I can repeatedly point to Trump and posters on this board lying and saying that Dems do not want boarder security. I could find examples very quickly...could you find examples of dems lying about the current boarder security/wall brouhaha?

I am all for both sides toning down the rhetoric...but hell....one side has ample evidence of lying about this issue.

 

[year2late]

A comprehensive plan backed up with facts shouldn't be too much to ask.

At the very least....if you are going to ask for billions of dollars for something...know what that something is...and why that specific something and only that specific something will work.

 

[Perotista]

This is what is confusing to me.

Trump talks about wanting a concrete wall across the border to be paid for by Mexico.

Since then he has gone back and forth about the meaning of the wall and border security. He wants billions, but cannot definitively say what this wall is.

Then he lies and makes his followers believe Dems want no border security.

Here us what I want. A well thought out multifactorial plan on border security. If he believes the wall is integral to this plan, why.

Back up with facts.

After deciding what your border security plan is....if a wall is needed...know in advance it is concrete vs slats vs fencing...and for how much of the border. You should have facts to back this up. Also, what about other border security measures....facts based on what has been helpful with reasonable projections.

And last but not least, if you want democrats to listen....stop lying. Their idea of border security may be different than yours, but all dems I know in real life want secure borders.

While I agree in essence about the wall. I do believe there are cheaper, more efficient, more effective ways. I do wonder about the Democratic Party and its commitment to border security and perhaps a commitment to the laws of this land. Harboring illegals, sanctuary cities, the abolishment of ICE, having a more or less welcome mat out for those who cross our borders illegally doesn't in my opinion define the Democratic Party as one for secure borders. More for open borders by their actions, rhetoric aside.

I do think the wall and border security are possibly two different things. But in real life, I expect the Democratic Party if they are for border security, to put forth the actions that reflect that. Not just stating I'm for border security. Come up with a workable plan that stops illegals from crossing the border and deals with illegals that have already crossed what is apparently an easy border to cross. Is that expecting too much?

 

[year2late]

I have been called a liar for things I said truthfully. I am not surprised hateful democrats call Trump a liar. They must have forgotten all the lies Hillary and Obama told them.

Dude...Trump is not a liar...he is the consummate liar. I think many if not most politicians lie or at least exaggerate the truth...but Trump is in a lying league of his own.

This is why folks call him a liar......

https://www.politifact.com/personalities/donald-trump/

 

[Amelia]

Dude...Trump is not a liar...he is the consummate liar. I think many if not most politicians lie or at least exaggerate the truth...but Trump is in a lying league of his own.

This is why folks call him a liar......

https://www.politifact.com/personalities/donald-trump/

Cue the excuse that PolitiFact has a liberal bias.

I agree that it does have a liberal bias in how things are chosen to check and how grades are assigned, but Trump owns Pants on Fire. I think he has a hotel and golf course there.

 

[year2late]

While I agree in essence about the wall. I do believe there are cheaper, more efficient, more effective ways. I do wonder about the Democratic Party and its commitment to border security and perhaps a commitment to the laws of this land. Harboring illegals, sanctuary cities, the abolishment of ICE, having a more or less welcome mat out for those who cross our borders illegally doesn't in my opinion define the Democratic Party as one for secure borders. More for open borders by their actions, rhetoric aside.

I do think the wall and border security are possibly two different things. But in real life, I expect the Democratic Party if they are for border security, to put forth the actions that reflect that. Not just stating I'm for border security. Come up with a workable plan that stops illegals from crossing the border and deals with illegals that have already crossed what is apparently an easy border to cross. Is that expecting too much?

Is it too much for Trump to define exactly what he wants and why?

It started as a concrete wall all across the southern border that Mexico would pay for. Then he came to understand there were natural barriers and altered his dialog. Then he goes back and forth on the concrete. Then he wavers on who is paying for it. Now apparently Mexico would pay for it through other manipulations.


Get the border security provisions now. Stop the shutdown. Then he can come back when he knows exactly what we need because he has had experts adequately research what is needed. Because right now the wall seems more like a vanity project because he has not adequate investigated or articulated in a consistent matter what he wants.

 

[year2late]

Cue the excuse that PolitiFact has a liberal bias.

I agree that it does have a liberal bias in how things are chosen to check and how grades are assigned, but Trump owns Pants on Fire. I think he has a hotel and golf course there.

Look at the Pants on Fire to start with and see their research as to why it is a lie.

You cannot just cry "liberal bias" to everything and not look lazy.

I treat Politifact like I treat Wikipedia. Never use it as an unbiased complete source. But it is a good jumping off point for referenced information. If the referenced information is not from a reliable source - then do not trust it.


And for the record, when someone states something outrageous Trump said, I look there and on Politifact they have shown the quotes to be false. Works both ways.

 

[Mycroft]

This is what is confusing to me.

Trump talks about wanting a concrete wall across the border to be paid for by Mexico.

Since then he has gone back and forth about the meaning of the wall and border security. He wants billions, but cannot definitively say what this wall is.

Then he lies and makes his followers believe Dems want no border security.

Here us what I want. A well thought out multifactorial plan on border security. If he believes the wall is integral to this plan, why.

Back up with facts.

After deciding what your border security plan is....if a wall is needed...know in advance it is concrete vs slats vs fencing...and for how much of the border. You should have facts to back this up. Also, what about other border security measures....facts based on what has been helpful with reasonable projections.

And last but not least, if you want democrats to listen....stop lying. Their idea of border security may be different than yours, but all dems I know in real life want secure borders.

Most of your questions were answered by Trump way back when he was a candidate. You should go look up the positions he took on his old campaign website. Get educated.

Don't listen to the media. They never tell you the facts. They just tell you what they want you to think and know. You need to find the facts for yourself.

If you are as honest as you appear in this post, there's hope for you. If you aren't, well...enjoy your life as a useful idiot.

Oh...and keep in mind that Trump is a negotiator. Do you know what it means to be a negotiator?

 

[Xelor]

This is what is confusing to me.

Trump talks about wanting a concrete wall across the border to be paid for by Mexico.

Since then he has gone back and forth about the meaning of the wall and border security. He wants billions, but cannot definitively say what this wall is.

Then he lies and makes his followers believe Dems want no border security.

Here us what I want. A well thought out multifactorial plan on border security. If he believes the wall is integral to this plan, why.

Back up with facts.

After deciding what your border security plan is....if a wall is needed...know in advance it is concrete vs slats vs fencing...and for how much of the border. You should have facts to back this up. Also, what about other border security measures....facts based on what has been helpful with reasonable projections.

And last but not least, if you want democrats to listen....stop lying. Their idea of border security may be different than yours, but all dems I know in real life want secure borders.

1. Dude, you're not confused. You've aptly summarized the incoherence of Trump et al's rhetoric on the matter.
2. Trump's throwing enough "mud" on the wall so that whatever be the shutdown outcome, he can find something in it to claim as a victory for himself.
   
   The man'd as likely propose, as an illegal immigration tactic, populating the desert along the border with a wall of rattlers or "Jack's" beanstalk if he thought Congress would buy it. (He's not worried about "selling" any idea to his supporters. He knows damn well they'd buy cold air at the South Pole.)
3. Red --> It'll be a cold day in Hell before you get any such thing, or something like it, from Donald Trump and his cabal.
4. Blue --> I was talking to a GOP-er yesterday. He actually said that there is no such thing as border security without a wall. I asked him why over half the countries in the world, and nearly all of them in the Westernized world manage just fine without one, including the US on its northern border. He deflected the question.
   
   
   
   • There are 65 countries either building walls, or which are already have them - including in Belfast, where they are called 'peace lines', as well as numerous in the Middle East, where countries are trying to protect themselves from the risk of terrorism. Not even Trump's Admin. thinks a southern border wall/barrier would accomplish that. To wit:
     • "Counterterrorism cooperation between Mexico and the United States remained strong in 2017. Improved information sharing regarding migrant populations constituted a major step forward. At year’s end there was no credible evidence indicating that international terrorist groups have established bases in Mexico, worked with Mexican drug cartels, or sent operatives via Mexico into the United States."
       -- Dept. of State, BUREAU OF COUNTERTERRORISM AND COUNTERING VIOLENT EXTREMISM, 2017
   • Additional government data indicate that border security is indeed a terrorism issue, but that those on the terrorism watchlist come from the north, not the south. FBI reports from 2014 through 2016 suggest far more attempted terrorist incursions from Canada than Mexico.
     
     Though it'd still be a dumbass notion, a wall on the northern border would be a more effective terrorism deterrent than would one on the southern border. (I guess, moreover, that would-be illegal border crossers' ability to sail north and enter from there also has elided Trump cognition.)

 

[year2late]

Most of your questions were answered by Trump way back when he was a candidate. You should go look up the positions he took on his old campaign website. Get educated.

Don't listen to the media. They never tell you the facts. They just tell you what they want you to think and know. You need to find the facts for yourself.

If you are as honest as you appear in this post, there's hope for you. If you aren't, well...enjoy your life as a useful idiot.

He regularly changes his mind on what the wall means or is. That has been over the past 3 or 4 months.

Much of the confusion comes from what he tweets then says in when questioned. He agrees to things then retracts when pushed by pundits.

And frankly, once he started the lies about dems not wanting any boarder security.....why do you think they would actively listen to other things he had to say? This is a significant lie (er uh misrepresentation)

Like I said. Fund boarder security - things that will in real time help secure the boarders and end the shutdown. Then if he can figure out exactly what he wants based on expert recommendations. Figure out a budget and where the money will REALLY come from. If it will take 50 billion, where in the budget will it come from - will it be a new tax or will it be syphoning off of social security or other programs.


Most dems can see more additional fencing and shoring up existing barriers that are failing. They support a multitude of different high tech options.