Bobby Kennedy

[Glitch]

Say what you will about the old-fashioned smoke-filled rooms and nominations getting decided by party insiders... but I think both parties used to pick better leaders in those days. Nowadays, the primaries just seem to deliver nominees who can cater the extremists.

I disagree about picking better leaders in the past. The worst US Presidents were in our past. While these last four have been pretty shabby indeed, I can cite many Presidents who were far worse. They just seem extra-ordinarily bad because you are not taking into account Presidents before you were born. That doesn't make any of these Presidents in the last 28 years good, just not as bad as prior Presidents.

There are always some antics being pulled, by both parties, during national primaries. In 2016 during the RNC Primary Trump tried to claim that Alaska voted for him, when in reality Alaska's Republicans voted to nominate Sen. Cruz. Not that it mattered in the end, but those kinds of antics are common.

 

[Cordelier]

Incorrect. In the Watergate tapes, Nixon himself admitted the bombings were simply a political ploy. The moment N Vietnam resumed negotiations, the airstrikes stopped. Proof is in the pudding.

The bombing in Cambodia kept up until 1973.

Operation Freedom Deal - Wikipedia

 

[Cordelier]

Lots of times - I participated in many demonstrations against Viet Nam, burnt my draft card in New York at the United Nations, demonstrated against George Wallace at his Detroit appearances, was the Congressional Director for McGovern in 1972 and a delegate to the Democratic National Convention in Miami. And that is the stuff I can still remember.

Interesting story about Chicago. I was 19 at the time and lived in a suburb of Detroit. My brother and two other guys from our neighborhood drove the five hours from Detroit to Chicago and arrived there on Sunday (my brother has insisted to this day it was Monday) afternoon. There was a bad vibe on the streets and we saw many military vehicles and the whole place just reeked of a bad accident waiting to happen. We were going to spend several days there but after couple hours we turned around and went home. It was that bad of a feeling.

btw - in 68 I supported RFK.

Fair enough... I asked because - and this may be a generalization on my part - but it's always been my impression that the hardcore anti-war protesters were the base of McCarthy's support while Kennedy tended to attract the more softcore anti-war vote. If you opposed the war, but it still mattered to you whether the old man disowned you or not, you were probably more likely to be a Kennedy supporter.

 

[haymarket]

Fair enough... I asked because - and this may be a generalization on my part - but it's always been my impression that the hardcore anti-war protesters were the base of McCarthy's support while Kennedy tended to attract the more softcore anti-war vote. If you opposed the war, but it still mattered to you whether the old man disowned you or not, you were probably more likely to be a Kennedy supporter.

I expect you are mostly right about the differences in anti-war support. But Bobby had a charisma - as sense of hope - that was Camelot and that came across when you contrasted it to the colder intellectualism of Gene McCarthy. I supported McCarthy but then quickly moved to RFK when he got in the race.

btw - this has nothing to do with RFK but the anti-war activities. In 1967 I went to a Detroit anti-war protest and I had this corduroy Eisenhower style jacket with epaulets and flap pockets on the chest. I went down to the basement and "borrowed" my Dads Purple Heart that he got from WW2. I pinned on the jacket flap along with some buttons like PEACE IN NIET NAM and went to the demonstration and it got lots of attention. About ten years later the thought was in my head that I lost the purple heart. This went on for the next four decades and I was periodically struck with tremendous guilt over it. When I worked for a Michigan legislator I told him of it and he put me in touch with somebody from a compression office to see if they could help in a replacement. The problem was my father would have to sign a statement that he had earned it in the first place and it was lost. I just could not do that to him and let it fo.

My dad dies last year in his 90's and in cleaning out the house we found a box in the basement. It contained all his WW2 medals including -by the grace of God - his purple heart.

I know keep it along with the flag from his funeral.

 

[Cordelier]

I disagree about picking better leaders in the past. The worst US Presidents were in our past. While these last four have been pretty shabby indeed, I can cite many Presidents who were far worse. They just seem extra-ordinarily bad because you are not taking into account Presidents before you were born. That doesn't make any of these Presidents in the last 28 years good, just not as bad as prior Presidents.

There are always some antics being pulled, by both parties, during national primaries. In 2016 during the RNC Primary Trump tried to claim that Alaska voted for him, when in reality Alaska's Republicans voted to nominate Sen. Cruz. Not that it mattered in the end, but those kinds of antics are common.

I think that'd be a good debate thread all in itself, Glitch. If you go back to when the primary system existed, but wasn't dominant (1912-68) and you compare who actually got the nomination to who actually got the most votes in the primaries, and then switch the nominee for who got the most votes in the primaries, it definitely sets up some interesting hypothetical contests (ie, 1944 - Roosevelt v. Douglas MacArthur... or how about 1912 - Wilson v. T. Roosevelt?)... but there were also some duds - would we really have been better off with 1952 being between Taft and Kefauver? And who knows how the heck 1920 between Mitchell Palmer and Hiram Johnson would have turned out?

1928, 1956, 1960, and 1964 would have been a wash, though, because we would have gotten the same nominees regardless. So maybe it's just as well to stick with primaries?

 

[Cordelier]

I expect you are mostly right about the differences in anti-war support. But Bobby had a charisma - as sense of hope - that was Camelot and that came across when you contrasted it to the colder intellectualism of Gene McCarthy. I supported McCarthy but then quickly moved to RFK when he got in the race.

btw - this has nothing to do with RFK but the anti-war activities. In 1967 I went to a Detroit anti-war protest and I had this corduroy Eisenhower style jacket with epaulets and flap pockets on the chest. I went down to the basement and "borrowed" my Dads Purple Heart that he got from WW2. I pinned on the jacket flap along with some buttons like PEACE IN NIET NAM and went to the demonstration and it got lots of attention. About ten years later the thought was in my head that I lost the purple heart. This went on for the next four decades and I was periodically struck with tremendous guilt over it. When I worked for a Michigan legislator I told him of it and he put me in touch with somebody from a compression office to see if they could help in a replacement. The problem was my father would have to sign a statement that he had earned it in the first place and it was lost. I just could not do that to him and let it fo.

My dad dies last year in his 90's and in cleaning out the house we found a box in the basement. It contained all his WW2 medals including -by the grace of God - his purple heart.

I know keep it along with the flag from his funeral.

That's a powerful story, Haymarket.... and my condolences for your father. But I've got to ask.... did you ever tell him over all of those years that you thought you lost his Purple Heart?

 

[haymarket]

That's a powerful story, Haymarket.... and my condolences for your father. But I've got to ask.... did you ever tell him over all of those years that you thought you lost his Purple Heart?

Thank you for the condolences. He lived a full and good life if you don't count the parts of two years he spent in a Nazi prison camp.

Nope - discretion being the better part of valor.

In the box of medals with the Purple Heart is his tag from the Nazi camps. It is made up of a cardboard type material that is pressed into something about 1/8 of an inch thick - light brown color about 1 inch by 2/12. It is stamped with STALAG VII A at the top - then has two holes where it goes on the dog tags, and then his prisoner number is written in back ink by hand. The weird thing is my birthday is 7/7/49 and this prison tag is made up of six numerals and five of the six are the same numerals as my birthday. What a coincidence.

I was really surprised when I found and opened that box.I am looking at it right now

 

[PoS]

I wasn't referring to the airstrikes over northern Vietnam. I'm refuting your obviously incorrect assertion that the TOP SECRET bombings of the Ho Chi Min trail in Cambodia were done for political purposes. How can anything be done for political purposes when it is classified "Top Secret?" In order to be political it must be public knowledge, like the very public bombings over northern Vietnam.

We're talking about the bombing of Cambodia. You obviously dont have any knowledge about it because every article that is written on it confirms it was a secret bombing. All you have to do is google it.

Operation Menu - Wikipedia

"The number of individuals who had complete knowledge of the operation was kept to a minimum. Neither the Secretary of the Air Force nor Air Force's chief of staff were aware of the bombing of Cambodia"

The bombing in Cambodia kept up until 1973.

Operation Freedom Deal - Wikipedia

That happened after Sihanouk was ousted, and the military junta openly sided with the US.

 

[Cordelier]

Thank you for the condolences. He lived a full and good life if you don't count the parts of two years he spent in a Nazi prison camp.

Nope - discretion being the better part of valor.

In the box of medals with the Purple Heart is his tag from the Nazi camps. It is made up of a cardboard type material that is pressed into something about 1/8 of an inch thick - light brown color about 1 inch by 2/12. It is stamped with STALAG VII A at the top - then has two holes where it goes on the dog tags, and then his prisoner number is written in back ink by hand. The weird thing is my birthday is 7/7/49 and this prison tag is made up of six numerals and five of the six are the same numerals as my birthday. What a coincidence.

I was really surprised when I found and opened that box.I am looking at it right now

I looked up Stalag VII A and it turns out it was actually on my old stomping grounds - I was stationed a few miles North up in Hohenfels, but I've been to Moosburg plenty of times. Small world.

 

[haymarket]

I looked up Stalag VII and it turns out it was actually on my old stomping grounds - I was stationed a few miles North up in Hohenfels, but I've been to Moosburg plenty of times. Small world.

Yes it is. Someday I hope to tour that area.

What service were you in?

 

[Cordelier]

Yes it is. Someday I hope to tour that area.

What service were you in?

Beautiful country around there - it's on my list to go back and show the wife around someday.

I was in the Army - right at the end of the Cold War. I'll never forget all of those East Germans coming over to the West for the first time.... stepping out of their Trabants and just totally freaked out. I imagine we'd have the same look on our faces if we stepped out the door and found ourselves 40 years in the future.

 

[Cordelier]

That happened after Sihanouk was ousted, and the military junta openly sided with the US.

What's your point? You said the bombing stopped - it didn't. Why not just admit you were mistaken? Nothing wrong with an honest mistake between friends, is there?

And while we're at it... didn't Nixon have every reason to assume the Khmer Republic regime would stay in power indefinitely?

 

[haymarket]

Beautiful country around there - it's on my list to go back and show the wife around someday.

I was in the Army - right at the end of the Cold War. I'll never forget all of those East Germans coming over to the West for the first time.... stepping out of their Trabants and just totally freaked out. I imagine we'd have the same look on our faces if we stepped out the door and found ourselves 40 years in the future.

Thank you for your service. That memory of the East Germans gaining political freedom sounds wonderful.

 

[Cordelier]

Thank you for your service. That memory of the East Germans gaining political freedom sounds wonderful.

It was... definitely met a lot of interesting people coming over the line.

 

[PoS]

What's your point? You said the bombing stopped - it didn't. Why not just admit you were mistaken? Nothing wrong with an honest mistake between friends, is there?

Whats your point? I was debating with somebody else on Nixon's secret bombing campaign until you butted in with a post that had nothing to do with it- I pointed it out to you and now youre crying foul?

 

[Cordelier]

Whats your point? I was debating with somebody else on Nixon's secret bombing campaign until you butted in with a post that had nothing to do with it- I pointed it out to you and now youre crying foul?

I've got news for you... this is a discussion group. That means anyone can participate. If you want to have a private discussion with someone, I can only suggest you take it private.

That being said, it amuses me that you can't admit your error. Since this is a thread on Bobby Kennedy and I know the late Senator was fond of quoting Camus, I thought I'd add my own Camus quote (for your benefit)... "The need to be right is the sign of a vulgar mind."

 

[Ringo Stalin]

Humphrey is who I voted for but if Bobby was alive, he would have gotten the nomination.

Who wouldn't have won, do you think it wouldn't have happened? :

Behind the Photos That Showed the World What Really Happened at My Lai

His pictures from that 1968 day in Vietnam showed the world what really happened at My Lai. A half-century later, they are still haunting.

time.com

 

[NewfieMom]

I expect you are mostly right about the differences in anti-war support. But Bobby had a charisma - as sense of hope - that was Camelot and that came across when you contrasted it to the colder intellectualism of Gene McCarthy. I supported McCarthy but then quickly moved to RFK when he got in the race.

btw - this has nothing to do with RFK but the anti-war activities. In 1967 I went to a Detroit anti-war protest and I had this corduroy Eisenhower style jacket with epaulets and flap pockets on the chest. I went down to the basement and "borrowed" my Dads Purple Heart that he got from WW2. I pinned on the jacket flap along with some buttons like PEACE IN NIET NAM and went to the demonstration and it got lots of attention. About ten years later the thought was in my head that I lost the purple heart. This went on for the next four decades and I was periodically struck with tremendous guilt over it. When I worked for a Michigan legislator I told him of it and he put me in touch with somebody from a compression office to see if they could help in a replacement. The problem was my father would have to sign a statement that he had earned it in the first place and it was lost. I just could not do that to him and let it fo.

My dad dies last year in his 90's and in cleaning out the house we found a box in the basement. It contained all his WW2 medals including -by the grace of God - his purple heart.

I know keep it along with the flag from his funeral.

From your discussion of your political days as a youth (supporting Eugene McCathy "Go Clean with Gene" and then Bobby Kennedy) and from your father's service in World War II I am assuming that we are about the same age and had similar backgrounds.

As someone who lived through the Camelot era, I can attest that if Bobby Kennedy had been around to run against nixon , it would have been a whole other ball game. If you didn't live through that era it is hard to describe the aura around the Kennedy brothers, their advisers (all of whose names we knew) and, of course, the Kennedy wives and sisters.

My father, who was working for the court system in New York City at the time, got to shake Robert Kennedy's hand when he was the Senator from New York State. That's the kind of thing one remembered. The family floated above the average man.

PS-I am very glad that your father never learned his Purple Heart was supposedly missing and that it is where it should be now.

 

[haymarket]

From your discussion of your political days as a youth (supporting Eugene McCathy "Go Clean with Gene" and then Bobby Kennedy) and from your father's service in World War II I am assuming that we are about the same age and had similar backgrounds.

As someone who lived through the Camelot era, I can attest that if Bobby Kennedy had been around to run against nixon , it would have been a whole other ball game. If you didn't live through that era it is hard to describe the aura around the Kennedy brothers, their advisers (all of whose names we knew) and, of course, the Kennedy wives and sisters.

My father, who was working for the court system in New York City at the time, got to shake Robert Kennedy's hand when he was the Senator from New York State. That's the kind of thing one remembered. The family floated above the average man.

PS-I am very glad that your father never learned his Purple Heart was supposedly missing and that it is where it should be now.

Thank you for the kind response. I agree with you that Bobby would have been a far better candidate in 68. He had the really unique ability to appeal to working class whites and black and brown voters. He was the best hope we had and it all was lost with his killing.

Your dad and I have something in common.I too got to shake the hand of Bobby Kennedy in 1966 when he made a campaign stop along with Congressman John Dingell in Dearborn, Mich. RFK was in the back of a convertible and there must have been a few thousand people there. I still have his campaign poster from 68 framed on my library wall.

btw - I am 71.

 

[Perotista]

I am watching a new documentary about him on Netflix, and I have learned stuff I didnt know before. I wasnt even born when he died, but to the ones around back then, did he really have a chance to win the POTUS against Nixon if he lived?

I don't know if RFK had he lived would have been the Democratic nominee. There were only 15 primaries back then. Some non-binding. RFK announced his candidacy on 16 March 1968. He promptly lost Wisconsin, Pennsylvania and Massachusetts to McCarthy. Massachusetts, RFK home state had to be galling. After that RFK won D.C. Indiana, Nebraska, California and South Dakota while McCarthy was winning Oregon, New Jersey and Illinois. Back then candidates went hand in glove to the party leaders who's states had no primaries trying to get them to support their candidacy.

What hurt Humphrey was the Chicago anti war protests during the democratic national convention. He never recovered from that. If RFK had won the nomination, he being an anti war candidate, the protests probably wouldn't have occurred. Beating Nixon was a real possibility. Without RFK's death, McCarthy another anti war candidate could have faced Nixon instead of RFK. I think because of his death, almost everyone assumes RFK would have been the Democratic nominee. That was far from certain.

Would he have beaten Nixon, I don't know. The south was going to Wallace and without the solid south it would have been difficult. Not impossible, but difficult. With an RFK vs. Nixon, chances are Wallace wouldn't have run giving his states to Nixon as Wallace hated the Kennedy's. I don't know, the dynamics would have been totally different. One can say yes and one can say no and both could be right as one can only speculate.

 

[Cordelier]

I don't know if RFK had he lived would have been the Democratic nominee. There were only 15 primaries back then. Some non-binding. RFK announced his candidacy on 16 March 1968. He promptly lost Wisconsin, Pennsylvania and Massachusetts to McCarthy. Massachusetts, RFK home state had to be galling. After that RFK won D.C. Indiana, Nebraska, California and South Dakota while McCarthy was winning Oregon, New Jersey and Illinois. Back then candidates went hand in glove to the party leaders who's states had no primaries trying to get them to support their candidacy.

What hurt Humphrey was the Chicago anti war protests during the democratic national convention. He never recovered from that. If RFK had won the nomination, he being an anti war candidate, the protests probably wouldn't have occurred. Beating Nixon was a real possibility. Without RFK's death, McCarthy another anti war candidate could have faced Nixon instead of RFK. I think because of his death, almost everyone assumes RFK would have been the Democratic nominee. That was far from certain.

Would he have beaten Nixon, I don't know. The south was going to Wallace and without the solid south it would have been difficult. Not impossible, but difficult. With an RFK vs. Nixon, chances are Wallace wouldn't have run giving his states to Nixon as Wallace hated the Kennedy's. I don't know, the dynamics would have been totally different. One can say yes and one can say no and both could be right as one can only speculate.

I still haven't seen anyone make a solid case on exactly how - assuming he somehow wins the nomination - Kennedy does any better than Humphrey did. What states does he carry that Humphrey didn't? Nixon won the electoral college 301-191, so that means Kennedy would have had to swing at least 55 electoral votes away from Nixon.... raise that to 80 if you assume a Kennedy nomination means Texas' 25 votes go to Nixon.

But it's even harder than that... even if Kennedy gets the 80 extra votes, it only ties the electoral vote 246-246... and that's still 24 shy of the 270 one side or the other would need to win outright (and not have it decided by Southern Democrats in the House). So to actually win outright, Kennedy would have had to flip 104 electoral votes from Nixon.

 

[Bullseye]

I am watching a new documentary about him on Netflix, and I have learned stuff I didnt know before. I wasnt even born when he died, but to the ones around back then, did he really have a chance to win the POTUS against Nixon if he lived?

He was still campaigning for Dem nomination when he was shot.

 

[PoS]

I've got news for you... this is a discussion group. That means anyone can participate. If you want to have a private discussion with someone, I can only suggest you take it private.

That being said, it amuses me that you can't admit your error. Since this is a thread on Bobby Kennedy and I know the late Senator was fond of quoting Camus, I thought I'd add my own Camus quote (for your benefit)... "The need to be right is the sign of a vulgar mind."

Ive made no error- all youve proven is you dont know what youre talking about. You think by having the last reply that you somehow can win, but you dont. All you do is make yourself look foolish.

 

[Perotista]

I still haven't seen anyone make a solid case on exactly how - assuming he somehow wins the nomination - Kennedy does any better than Humphrey did. What states does he carry that Humphrey didn't? Nixon won the electoral college 301-191, so that means Kennedy would have had to swing at least 55 electoral votes away from Nixon.... raise that to 80 if you assume a Kennedy nomination means Texas' 25 votes go to Nixon.

But it's even harder than that... even if Kennedy gets the 80 extra votes, it only ties the electoral vote 246-246... and that's still 24 shy of the 270 one side or the other would need to win outright (and not have it decided by Southern Democrats in the House). So to actually win outright, Kennedy would have had to flip 104 electoral votes from Nixon.

My stab at it if it was RFK vs. Nixon that Wallace wouldn't have run giving the southern states to Nixon. I agree, Texas probably would have gone to Nixon. Humphrey squeak past Nixon in Texas, I figure most of the Wallace vote would have gone to him. There's a couple of other states Nixon would have flipped without Wallace in the race. But I'm basing that on the assumption that Wallace's animosity toward the Kennedy's would have caused him to drop out of the race. But who knows.

 

[NewfieMom]

Cordelier said:
Fair enough... I asked because - and this may be a generalization on my part - but it's always been my impression that the hardcore anti-war protesters were the base of McCarthy's support while Kennedy tended to attract the more softcore anti-war vote. If you opposed the war, but it still mattered to you whether the old man disowned you or not, you were probably more likely to be a Kennedy supporter.

Ive made no error- all youve proven is you dont know what youre talking about. You think by having the last reply that you somehow can win, but you dont. All you do is make yourself look foolish.

I do not think that Cordelier has made himself look foolish. It is only your opinion that he did. By the way, the supporters of Eugene McCarthy started to support him earlier than the supporters of Bobby Kennedy. We were very preppy and "clean". The hippy era was not, yet, upon us. We still dressed more like the teenagers and young people of the 1950's. I think of the group "The Lettermen". At least where I lived we did when McCarthy first ran. That's why Bobby Kennedy's supporters were different. He came along a couple of years later when everything had changed...due to the Beatles.