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Bob Woodward book details Obama battles with advisers over exit plan for Afghan war

Re: Bob Woodward book details Obama battles with advisers over exit plan for Afghan w

Any dumbass can sound the retreat.

Weird, in US foreign policy it seems to be "any dumbass can keep killing and dying at the screams of the opiated nationalist masses." I dont know thats how it seems to me. As far as Im concerned, unless you're committing a war and occupation that directly violates the liberal ideals that founded the country we live in, you cant win in places like vietnam or afghanistan. As in, cannot be conquered or tamed sort of ordeal. The smart thing for this planet was to have let the soviets keep it and them put an iron fist up the jihadist rear, the US cant do that and cant get away with the violations of human rights it would take to tame the country.
 
Re: Bob Woodward book details Obama battles with advisers over exit plan for Afghan w

Any dumbass can sound the retreat.

Any dumbass can send others to fight unnesscary wars and call everyone who stand up against such incompetence tratiors or cut and runners. And plenty of dumbasses have done just that.
 
Re: Bob Woodward book details Obama battles with advisers over exit plan for Afghan w

Weird, in US foreign policy it seems to be "any dumbass can keep killing and dying at the screams of the opiated nationalist masses." I dont know thats how it seems to me. As far as Im concerned, unless you're committing a war and occupation that directly violates the liberal ideals that founded the country we live in, you cant win in places like vietnam or afghanistan. As in, cannot be conquered or tamed sort of ordeal. The smart thing for this planet was to have let the soviets keep it and them put an iron fist up the jihadist rear, the US cant do that and cant get away with the violations of human rights it would take to tame the country.

No, allowing the Soviets to stay in Afghanistan wouldn't have been a good idea. Their ultimate destination was the Persian Gulf. It would have been a bad scene, if the Soviets controlled more than half of the world's oil reserves.
 
Re: Bob Woodward book details Obama battles with advisers over exit plan for Afghan w

Any dumbass can send others to fight unnesscary wars and call everyone who stand up against such incompetence tratiors or cut and runners. And plenty of dumbasses have done just that.

Anyone who would knowingly undermine American forces that are fighting on any given battlefield, is a traitor.
 
Re: Bob Woodward book details Obama battles with advisers over exit plan for Afghan w

No, allowing the Soviets to stay in Afghanistan wouldn't have been a good idea. Their ultimate destination was the Persian Gulf. It would have been a bad scene, if the Soviets controlled more than half of the world's oil reserves.

never saw proof that the persian gulf was the ultimate ussr objective, and that it decided to reach that goal thru the quagmire which is afghanistan
how about offering a cite which would support your assertion this was actually the soviet's strategy
 
Re: Bob Woodward book details Obama battles with advisers over exit plan for Afghan w

please, russia has been trying to gain access to the sea since ivan grozny
 
Re: Bob Woodward book details Obama battles with advisers over exit plan for Afghan w

Anyone who would knowingly undermine American forces that are fighting on any given battlefield, is a traitor.

absolutely, and our president has committed the blood pumping hearts of our heroes over there even tho HIS is not in it

or so says BOB WOODWARD
 
Re: Bob Woodward book details Obama battles with advisers over exit plan for Afghan w

never saw proof that the persian gulf was the ultimate ussr objective, and that it decided to reach that goal thru the quagmire which is afghanistan
how about offering a cite which would support your assertion this was actually the soviet's strategy

"The issue is not what might have been Brezhnev's subjective motives in going into Afghanistan but the subjective consequences of a Soviet military presence so much closer to the Persian Gulf" --Zbigniew Brzezinski. Even Carter's people saw the potential for a Soviet invasion/incroachment on ther Persian Gulf.

In 1989, after the Soviets got their asses handed to them, Gorbachev decided on a new strategy to gain infuence in the Persian Gulf, by exploiting Middle-Eastern hatred of the West.

Responding to the Soviet Challenge in the Persian Gulf | The Heritage Foundation
 
Re: Bob Woodward book details Obama battles with advisers over exit plan for Afghan w

once more, just when are we beginning that conditions based, transitional withdrawal deadline, leaving behind a stable afghanistan, barry?

yesterday's nyt:

"widespread fraud seen in latest afghan elections:" http://www.nytimes.com/glogin?URI=h...7Q2BsbQ2Bt2i@nQ2BQ26LeQ26Q2BsbQ26M_hQ26.xh)j@

are you sure you know what you're doing?
 
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Re: Bob Woodward book details Obama battles with advisers over exit plan for Afghan w

let's examine the first comment to which i took exception:
No, allowing the Soviets to stay in Afghanistan wouldn't have been a good idea. Their ultimate destination was the Persian Gulf. It would have been a bad scene, if the Soviets controlled more than half of the world's oil reserves.
and in response you provide ar article which tells us that after its military defeat in afghanistan, the soviets attempted to establish diplomatic alliances in the middle east - and especially with an anti-American iran
"The issue is not what might have been Brezhnev's subjective motives in going into Afghanistan but the subjective consequences of a Soviet military presence so much closer to the Persian Gulf" --Zbigniew Brzezinski. Even Carter's people saw the potential for a Soviet invasion/incroachment on ther Persian Gulf.

In 1989, after the Soviets got their asses handed to them, Gorbachev decided on a new strategy to gain infuence in the Persian Gulf, by exploiting Middle-Eastern hatred of the West.

Responding to the Soviet Challenge in the Persian Gulf | The Heritage Foundation

so, after the ussr had its ass handed to them - a historical fact which needs to be recognized by our present administration - the soviets attempted an oil diplomacy. emphasis on the diplomacy ... yet, you speak in terms of soviet control of ME oil reserves and soviet invasion/encroachment of the persian gulf
so give us a cite showing that such invasion of the persian gulf was in fact part of the soviet strategy
i call bull****, but prove me wrong
 
Re: Bob Woodward book details Obama battles with advisers over exit plan for Afghan w

Had our civilian Government interfered with Military Operations during WW-II like they did in Vietnam, and now again in Afghanistan with these totally retarded namby pamby rules of engagement dictated to our troops by Karzai and Backed up by dumb asses back here, everyone from the Mississippi river east would be speaking German and doing a lot of sieg heils to Der Fuhrer, and the west of the Mississippi we would be speaking Japanese and working in labor camps bowing and scraping to our short ruthless keepers and a pip squeak Emperor.
1940s_Ch_FDR_Stalin.jpg

These guys had their faults but they knew had to get the hell out of the way and let the Military do what they do best unlike the leaders of today
 
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Re: Bob Woodward book details Obama battles with advisers over exit plan for Afghan w

well, the CARTER DOCRINE was issued in response to something

The region which is now threatened by Soviet troops in Afghanistan is of great strategic importance: It contains more than two-thirds of the world's exportable oil. The Soviet effort to dominate Afghanistan has brought Soviet military forces to within 300 miles of the Indian Ocean and close to the Straits of Hormuz, a waterway through which most of the world's oil must flow. The Soviet Union is now attempting to consolidate a strategic position, therefore, that poses a grave threat to the free movement of Middle East oil.

This situation demands careful thought, steady nerves, and resolute action, not only for this year but for many years to come. It demands collective efforts to meet this new threat to security in the Persian Gulf and in Southwest Asia. It demands the participation of all those who rely on oil from the Middle East and who are concerned with global peace and stability. And it demands consultation and close cooperation with countries in the area which might be threatened.

Meeting this challenge will take national will, diplomatic and political wisdom, economic sacrifice, and, of course, military capability. We must call on the best that is in us to preserve the security of this crucial region.

Let our position be absolutely clear: An attempt by any outside force to gain control of the Persian Gulf region will be regarded as an assault on the vital interests of the United States of America, and such an assault will be repelled by any means necessary, including military force.

Carter Doctrine - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

the kids don't recall the 1980 olympics?
 
Re: Bob Woodward book details Obama battles with advisers over exit plan for Afghan w

never saw proof that the persian gulf was the ultimate ussr objective, and that it decided to reach that goal thru the quagmire which is afghanistan
how about offering a cite which would support your assertion this was actually the soviet's strategy

It seems that every few years a great many new members arrive on the scene insisting on saying "Show Me" to something that has been rather common knowledge.

It demonstrates yet again how history lessons have taken a back seat to courses in self esteem, origami or dance lessons.
 
Re: Bob Woodward book details Obama battles with advisers over exit plan for Afghan w


ah, yalta

i've seen that picture a thousand times but i never noticed the cigarette in franklin deficit roosevelt's left hand

he'd be dead in 2 months

those rank apologists of franklin's post war alignments offer up as their ONLY defense of this consignment of half a billion human beings to the physical, economic and psychological constraints of the soviet slave state the observation that he was sick

he doesn't look very good, does he

sad
 
Re: Bob Woodward book details Obama battles with advisers over exit plan for Afghan w

ah, yalta

i've seen that picture a thousand times but i never noticed the cigarette in franklin deficit roosevelt's left hand

he'd be dead in 2 months

those rank apologists of franklin's post war alignments offer up as their ONLY defense of this consignment of half a billion human beings to the physical, economic and psychological constraints of the soviet slave state the observation that he was sick

he doesn't look very good, does he

sad

fdr1.jpg


Few people want to remember that FDR's National Recovery Act Title I of the famous (NRA) was deemed un-Constitutional.

And that in reaction to the Supreme Court which over turned Congressional legislation on such issues as child labor and minimum wage for women, FDR proposed a Judicial Branch Reorganization act, which would have “packed the courts” with younger, New Deal-friendly justices.

And thank God it failed or we'd be 100% Socialist/Marxist and screwed. In fact we would have collapsed many years ago. FDR was good during the was for the most part but he was a flaming Progressive and like Obama that is not a good thing by any stretch.
 
Re: Bob Woodward book details Obama battles with advisers over exit plan for Afghan w

let's examine the first comment to which i took exception:
and in response you provide ar article which tells us that after its military defeat in afghanistan, the soviets attempted to establish diplomatic alliances in the middle east - and especially with an anti-American iran


so, after the ussr had its ass handed to them - a historical fact which needs to be recognized by our present administration - the soviets attempted an oil diplomacy. emphasis on the diplomacy ... yet, you speak in terms of soviet control of ME oil reserves and soviet invasion/encroachment of the persian gulf
so give us a cite showing that such invasion of the persian gulf was in fact part of the soviet strategy
i call bull****, but prove me wrong

I gave you a quote from Carter's NSA, that proved the belief that the Soviets were headed for the Persian Gulf.

Care to show me any docs that suggest differently? Or, are you going to wage your usual war of samantics?
 
Re: Bob Woodward book details Obama battles with advisers over exit plan for Afghan w

the court packing plan:

Judiciary Reorganization Bill of 1937 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

the roosevelt recession of 37:

Recession of 1937

back to the topic, it is TRAGIC what is told in woodward's book

1. our strategists do not believe we can win (they're right)

2. the president does not believe in obama's war, he's there only for politics

3. he feels we can "absorb" a terrorist attack

4. the enemy we seek, al qaeda, has less than 100 people in afghanistan

5. karzai's a crook AND a kook and we're stuck with him

6. last weekend's elections were a disaster

etc, etc, etc

obama should be ashamed

and so should his supporters
 
Re: Bob Woodward book details Obama battles with advisers over exit plan for Afghan w

I gave you a quote from Carter's NSA, that proved the belief that the Soviets were headed for the Persian Gulf.

Care to show me any docs that suggest differently? Or, are you going to wage your usual war of samantics?
yes, you offered a cite - for the period after the ussr was defeated in afghanistan
in which the soviets initiated a diplomatic approach to the states of the persian gulf
nothing there indicates documentation of your statement that:
... Their ultimate destination was the Persian Gulf. It would have been a bad scene, if the Soviets controlled more than half of the world's oil reserves.
the ussr just got its ass kicked by the afghani freedom fighters
there is NOTHING to indicate the soviets had any strategy to acquire control over persian gulf oil
you have been invited to offer such proof and you have repeatedly failed to do so
 
Re: Bob Woodward book details Obama battles with advisers over exit plan for Afghan w

It seems that every few years a great many new members arrive on the scene insisting on saying "Show Me" to something that has been rather common knowledge.

It demonstrates yet again how history lessons have taken a back seat to courses in self esteem, origami or dance lessons.
one would think that if the soviets had a strategy to acquire persian gulf oil by force, we would have been able to know it, now that the ussr has disintegrated

we certainly never saw it, but show us that such a strategy was, in fact, pursued by the soviets

but then i realize there are those who will drink whatever kool aid is offered them, whether it is we are fiscally responsible while we borrow money to offer tax breaks to billionaires, or iraq is an al qaeda supporter with weapons of mass destruction. the kind of people who resent that others actually seek out the facts instead of imbibing what is fed to them by a propaganda apparatus


and this new member comment
it appears your (current) user name has been registered since 2010 while mine has since 2005
if you were pointing to another as a "new member", point them out
 
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Re: Bob Woodward book details Obama battles with advisers over exit plan for Afghan w

yes, you offered a cite - for the period after the ussr was defeated in afghanistan
in which the soviets initiated a diplomatic approach to the states of the persian gulf
nothing there indicates documentation of your statement that:
the ussr just got its ass kicked by the afghani freedom fighters
there is NOTHING to indicate the soviets had any strategy to acquire control over persian gulf oil
you have been invited to offer such proof and you have repeatedly failed to do so

Bzrezinski said that in 1979. You do know what years Carter was president, right?

If my historical facts are wrong, then you must be able to prove that no one in the United States believed that a Soviet presence in Afghanistan could be a danger to the Persian Gulf. If not, then just wallow in your own ignorance. That's your problem, not mine.
 
Re: Bob Woodward book details Obama battles with advisers over exit plan for Afghan w

23176d1215986642-obama-trying-create-brain-washing-child-obamas-youth-2.jpg


the court packing plan:

Judiciary Reorganization Bill of 1937 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

the roosevelt recession of 37:

Recession of 1937

back to the topic, it is TRAGIC what is told in woodward's book

1. our strategists do not believe we can win (they're right)

2. the president does not believe in obama's war, he's there only for politics

3. he feels we can "absorb" a terrorist attack

4. the enemy we seek, al qaeda, has less than 100 people in afghanistan

5. karzai's a crook AND a kook and we're stuck with him

6. last weekend's elections were a disaster

etc, etc, etc

obama should be ashamed

and so should his supporters

Your points one by one

1. They are right and it is their fault for being CHICKEN SHTUFF to win

2. I agree, plus Obama is a Muslim sympathizer and his heart in not where it should be.

3. This is a damn foolish thing to allow out in public because it's an invitation to disaster. This proves he's a naive amateurish dumb ass!

4. did he get an E-mail we don't know about? If this is the case lets go on a total seek and destroy mission and kill every damn one of them and enough Taliban to shut them the hell up once and for all and come home to a huge parade.

5.True but he should learn the hard way if necessary that he only rules at our pleasure not the other way around. It's his stupid rules of engagement that are killing many of our people.

6. To quote Ed McMahon you are right sir!

In closing I am ashamed of our education system that doesn't teach critical thinking and is creating a bunch of sheeple raised as Liberals who can only follow Der Fuhrer and can't really think past talking points.

It is show time after time here where they attack the messenger and seldom the message with a cogent intelligent retort containing the truth or facts and that is how we will defeat them.

For their edification "retort" means
1.to reply to, usually in a sharp or retaliatory way; reply in kind to.
2.to return (an accusation, epithet, etc.) upon the person uttering it.
3.to answer (an argument or the like) by another to the contrary.

And if they are still confused edification means: moral improvement or guidance.

I hope that clears it all up so there is no confusion it is not my intention to confound anyone ever.
 
Re: Bob Woodward book details Obama battles with advisers over exit plan for Afghan w

Bzrezinski said that in 1979. You do know what years Carter was president, right?

If my historical facts are wrong, then you must be able to prove that no one in the United States believed that a Soviet presence in Afghanistan could be a danger to the Persian Gulf. If not, then just wallow in your own ignorance. That's your problem, not mine.
you have provided NO historical facts
all you have provided is a cite which proves your position to have been wrong
and then you challenge me to prove a negative

so, establish your position by offering up something more than comjecture about the soviet intentions to control the oil of the persian gulf
hint: an article about soviet diplomacy after their defeat by afghani freedom fighters will not prove what you have asserted, that the soviets intended to control persian gulf oil
 
Re: Bob Woodward book details Obama battles with advisers over exit plan for Afghan w

you have provided NO historical facts
all you have provided is a cite which proves your position to have been wrong
and then you challenge me to prove a negative

so, establish your position by offering up something more than comjecture about the soviet intentions to control the oil of the persian gulf
hint: an article about soviet diplomacy after their defeat by afghani freedom fighters will not prove what you have asserted, that the soviets intended to control persian gulf oil

I've given you historical facts. It's your turn to use your own facts to refute what I've presented.

I'm not asking you to prove a negative. Surely, if I'm wrong, there are docs pointing to where people believed that the Soviets weren't believed to be a threat to the Persian Gulf. There has to be, by now, someone that has made that claim.
 
Re: Bob Woodward book details Obama battles with advisers over exit plan for Afghan w

I've given you historical facts. It's your turn to use your own facts to refute what I've presented.

I'm not asking you to prove a negative. Surely, if I'm wrong, there are docs pointing to where people believed that the Soviets weren't believed to be a threat to the Persian Gulf. There has to be, by now, someone that has made that claim.

point out the "historical facts" you have presented, which facts buttress your argument
 
Re: Bob Woodward book details Obama battles with advisers over exit plan for Afghan w

one would think that if the soviets had a strategy to acquire persian gulf oil by force, we would have been able to know it, now that the ussr has disintegrated

In fact there were a few reasons given for the Soviet invasion but geopolitically, and looking at a map, it seems clear why the Russians wanted control of Afghanistan. Otherwise why would they bother?

we certainly never saw it, but show us that such a strategy was, in fact, pursued by the soviets

It was certainly mentioned at that time that open waters was the main Soviet goal. Again, looking at a map pretty much says it all.
but then i realize there are those who will drink whatever kool aid is offered them, whether it is we are fiscally responsible while we borrow money to offer tax breaks to billionaires, or iraq is an al qaeda supporter with weapons of mass destruction. the kind of people who resent that others actually seek out the facts instead of imbibing what is fed to them by a propaganda apparatus

Speaking of a map, this is all over it.


and this new member comment
it appears your (current) user name has been registered since 2010 while mine has since 2005
if you were pointing to another as a "new member", point them out

It seemed clear enough that I was referring to the world scene, not to this particular debate board. Does being a member here since 2005 make you an expert on global affairs?
 
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