• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

Blaming the US for 9/11.

Wraith8

Member
Joined
Aug 1, 2013
Messages
104
Reaction score
36
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Independent
I understand that there are people (mostly of the far left ideology) who like to blame the US for the 9/11 attack. The reasons they do so are listed below.

1) The first thing they'll do is reference the words of Osama Bin Laden as to why he himself claimed that Al Qaeda attacked us (which apparently was because of our occupation of Saudi Arabia and our support of Israel.) What's odd about this is leftists seem to completely disregard the fact that Bin Laden was a religiously fanatical kook who was estranged even from his own family. If a Christian extremist or right wing extremist were to write a similar rant about the motivations for their violence I doubt the far left would take it as seriously.

2) One of the main pillars of the far left ideology is that they seem to believe that blind constant dissent against the United States is a valid substitute for blind patriotism. They believe that US patriotism is something for the simple-minded working class while dissent against the US automatically equates to advanced sophisticated thinking. Hence whenever some outside group has a conflict with the US they immediately race in to take the side of that group because it suits their leftist political agenda to do so.

3) Many leftists are consumed by white guilt and/or third world guilt. Therefore if someone is dark-skinned and from an impoverished nation (as many Muslim extremists are) they automatically slap a "victim" label on them. If someone is dark-skinned and from an impoverished nation that has poor relations with the US or Israel they automatically slap an extra LARGE "victim" label on them.

4) Leftists generally blame western nations for the hatred that Muslim extremists have for us. This they do while conveniently ignoring that these extremists by their own admission are completely intolerant against other religions, gays, women and any form of freedom of expression that differs from their own. They also seem to ignore the fact that the extremists have repeatedly proven that they’re more than willing to lash out violently over the most ridiculous reasons (i.e. Youtube videos and Danish cartoons that offend them) and that they’re absolutely incapable of getting along with anyone else including moderate Muslims within their own various nations. Muslim Pakistani schoolgirl Malala Yousafza who was shot by a Taliban gunman simply because she wanted an education would likely be the first to point this out.

5) Leftists are fiercely resistant when it comes to criticizing anything that has to do with Islam. Usually what happens whenever someone criticizes a Muslim their first response will be to try and deflect all criticism over to Christianity because in their view criticizing Christianity is the height of "progressive wisdom" while criticizing Islam is considered "hate speech" and "bigotry."

6) Leftists also don't seem to want to hold Muslim extremists accountable for anything negative that they do. Therefore if a Muslim extremist commits an act of terror they immediately begin claiming that it was an act of provoked violence that should be blamed on another country’s foreign policy. Meanwhile if a US soldier, Israeli soldier or Christian extremist commits an act of terror they instantly denounce the crazed, bloodthirsty, hate-filled soldier or Christian and instantly demand full and immediate prosecution to the full extent of the law.

7) Lastly the far left has such a blinding bias toward the US in general that whenever the US (or Israel) has any kind of conflict with any nation or terrorist organization leftists instantly bendover backwards to come up with creative fabrications as to how the US or Israel provoked said conflict and this they do while ignoring how oppressive, intolerant, aggressive or brutal the opposition in that conflict actually is.


The fact is that Muslim extremists cannot be reasoned with. They are completely intolerant and violent towards anyone who doesn't share their hardline views. They routinely kill more liberal-minded Muslims in their own nations and have a history of calling for Jihads over absolutely ridiculous reasons. However as the 12th anniversary of the 9/11 attack draws near, leftists will once again ignore all of these facts because blaming the US for all the world's woes is the very foundation of their alleged "complex and sophisticated" ideology.
 
Last edited:
Don't forget people on the far right that blame 9/11 on the lack of morality of the US.

I love when Conservatives seem to believe they somehow are experts on the left by listening to far right wingers poke holes in leftist strawmen
 
Don't forget people on the far right that blame 9/11 on the lack of morality of the US.
I could also bring up the foilhats who blame the US government for the attack. But that isn't the topic of this thread.

I love when Conservatives seem to believe they somehow are experts on the left by listening to far right wingers poke holes in leftist strawmen
My perspective on leftists comes from listening to leftists that I actually know. I'm sorry if it disappoints you that there are extremists on your side of the political aisle.
 
I understand that there are people (mostly of the far left ideology) who like to blame the US for the 9/11 attack. The reasons they do so are listed below.

1) The first thing they'll do is reference the words of Osama Bin Laden as to why he himself claimed that Al Qaeda attacked us (which apparently was because of our occupation of Saudi Arabia and our support of Israel.) What's odd about this is leftists seem to completely disregard the fact that Bin Laden was a religiously fanatical kook who was estranged even from his own family. If a Christian extremist or right wing extremist were to write a similar rant about the motivations for their violence I doubt the far left would take it as seriously.

2) One of the main pillars of the far left ideology is that they seem to believe that blind constant dissent against the United States is a valid substitute for blind patriotism. They believe that US patriotism is something for the simple-minded working class while dissent against the US automatically equates to advanced sophisticated thinking. Hence whenever some outside group has a conflict with the US they immediately race in to take the side of that group because it suits their leftist political agenda to do so.

3) Many leftists are consumed by white guilt and/or third world guilt. Therefore if someone is dark-skinned and from an impoverished nation (as many Muslim extremists are) they automatically slap a "victim" label on them. If someone is dark-skinned and from an impoverished nation that has poor relations with the US or Israel they automatically slap an extra LARGE "victim" label on them.

4) Leftists generally blame western nations for the hatred that Muslim extremists have for us. This they do while conveniently ignoring that these extremists by their own admission are completely intolerant against other religions, gays, women and any form of freedom of expression that differs from their own. They also seem to ignore the fact that the extremists have repeatedly proven that they’re more than willing to lash out violently over the most ridiculous reasons (i.e. Youtube videos and Danish cartoons that offend them) and that they’re absolutely incapable of getting along with anyone else including moderate Muslims within their own various nations. Muslim Pakistani schoolgirl Malala Yousafza who was shot by a Taliban gunman simply because she wanted an education would likely be the first to point this out.

5) Leftists are fiercely resistant when it comes to criticizing anything that has to do with Islam. Usually what happens whenever someone criticizes a Muslim their first response will be to try and deflect all criticism over to Christianity because in their view criticizing Christianity is the height of "progressive wisdom" while criticizing Islam is considered "hate speech" and "bigotry."

6) Leftists also don't seem to want to hold Muslim extremists accountable for anything negative that they do. Therefore if a Muslim extremist commits an act of terror they immediately begin claiming that it was an act of provoked violence that should be blamed on another country’s foreign policy. Meanwhile if a US soldier, Israeli soldier or Christian extremist commits an act of terror they instantly denounce the crazed, bloodthirsty, hate-filled soldier or Christian and instantly demand full and immediate prosecution to the full extent of the law.

7) Lastly the far left has such a blinding bias toward the US in general that whenever the US (or Israel) has any kind of conflict with any nation or terrorist organization leftists instantly bendover backwards to come up with creative fabrications as to how the US or Israel provoked said conflict and this they do while ignoring how oppressive, intolerant, aggressive or brutal the opposition in that conflict actually is.


The fact is that Muslim extremists cannot be reasoned with. They are completely intolerant and violent towards anyone who doesn't share their hardline views. They routinely kill more liberal-minded Muslims in their own nations and have a history of calling for Jihads over absolutely ridiculous reasons. However as the 12th anniversary of the 9/11 attack draws near, leftists will once again ignore all of these facts because blaming the US for all the world's woes is the very foundation of their alleged "complex and sophisticated" ideology.

Interesting position. Now, can you do the same criticism of conservatives?
 
Interesting position. Now, can you do the same criticism of conservatives?
Sure, I'll be happy to completely deflect from the topic of my thread and be critical of a group that would be more preferable to you. :roll:
 
Sure, I'll be happy to completely deflect from the topic of my thread and be critical of a group that would be more preferable to you. :roll:

Had nothing to do with me "preferring" that conservatives be critisized. Because frankly I don't care. My question was posed to see if you could actually be non-partisan enough to do so. Your response showed me that you cannot. As such your opinions in the OP are biased and not worth going into any further.
 
Had nothing to do with me "preferring" that conservatives be critisized.
Uh-huh...well I certainly believe that.

Because frankly I don't care.
If you truly didn't care you wouldn't have repeatedly responded.

My question was posed to see if you could actually be non-partisan enough to do so. Your response showed me that you cannot.
No my response was to not allow you to deflect away from the subject of my OP which you're clearly trying to do (despite your erroneous claims of "not caring.")
 
Uh-huh...well I certainly believe that.

If you truly didn't care you wouldn't have repeatedly responded.

No my response was to not allow you to deflect away from the subject of my OP which you're clearly trying to do (despite your erroneous claims of "not caring.")

psst...my "not caring" was in regards to the conservatives actually being critisized or not. Anyways I'll leave as you have proving my point. Thanks!
 
psst...my "not caring" was in regards to the conservatives actually being critisized or not.
Actually that was just your attempt at deflecting from the point of my OP....like I said.

Anyways I'll leave as you have proving my point. Thanks!
I'm sorry that you apparently can't tolerate criticism of the far left and that you'd prefer the criticism to be solely on the far right. Oh wait, I forgot, you supposedly "don't care."
 
I understand that there are people (mostly of the far left ideology) who like to blame the US for the 9/11 attack. The reasons they do so are listed below.

1) The first thing they'll do is reference the words of Osama Bin Laden as to why he himself claimed that Al Qaeda attacked us (which apparently was because of our occupation of Saudi Arabia and our support of Israel.) What's odd about this is leftists seem to completely disregard the fact that Bin Laden was a religiously fanatical kook who was estranged even from his own family. If a Christian extremist or right wing extremist were to write a similar rant about the motivations for their violence I doubt the far left would take it as seriously.

2) One of the main pillars of the far left ideology is that they seem to believe that blind constant dissent against the United States is a valid substitute for blind patriotism. They believe that US patriotism is something for the simple-minded working class while dissent against the US automatically equates to advanced sophisticated thinking. Hence whenever some outside group has a conflict with the US they immediately race in to take the side of that group because it suits their leftist political agenda to do so.

3) Many leftists are consumed by white guilt and/or third world guilt. Therefore if someone is dark-skinned and from an impoverished nation (as many Muslim extremists are) they automatically slap a "victim" label on them. If someone is dark-skinned and from an impoverished nation that has poor relations with the US or Israel they automatically slap an extra LARGE "victim" label on them.

4) Leftists generally blame western nations for the hatred that Muslim extremists have for us. This they do while conveniently ignoring that these extremists by their own admission are completely intolerant against other religions, gays, women and any form of freedom of expression that differs from their own. They also seem to ignore the fact that the extremists have repeatedly proven that they’re more than willing to lash out violently over the most ridiculous reasons (i.e. Youtube videos and Danish cartoons that offend them) and that they’re absolutely incapable of getting along with anyone else including moderate Muslims within their own various nations. Muslim Pakistani schoolgirl Malala Yousafza who was shot by a Taliban gunman simply because she wanted an education would likely be the first to point this out.

5) Leftists are fiercely resistant when it comes to criticizing anything that has to do with Islam. Usually what happens whenever someone criticizes a Muslim their first response will be to try and deflect all criticism over to Christianity because in their view criticizing Christianity is the height of "progressive wisdom" while criticizing Islam is considered "hate speech" and "bigotry."

6) Leftists also don't seem to want to hold Muslim extremists accountable for anything negative that they do. Therefore if a Muslim extremist commits an act of terror they immediately begin claiming that it was an act of provoked violence that should be blamed on another country’s foreign policy. Meanwhile if a US soldier, Israeli soldier or Christian extremist commits an act of terror they instantly denounce the crazed, bloodthirsty, hate-filled soldier or Christian and instantly demand full and immediate prosecution to the full extent of the law.

7) Lastly the far left has such a blinding bias toward the US in general that whenever the US (or Israel) has any kind of conflict with any nation or terrorist organization leftists instantly bendover backwards to come up with creative fabrications as to how the US or Israel provoked said conflict and this they do while ignoring how oppressive, intolerant, aggressive or brutal the opposition in that conflict actually is.


The fact is that Muslim extremists cannot be reasoned with. They are completely intolerant and violent towards anyone who doesn't share their hardline views. They routinely kill more liberal-minded Muslims in their own nations and have a history of calling for Jihads over absolutely ridiculous reasons. However as the 12th anniversary of the 9/11 attack draws near, leftists will once again ignore all of these facts because blaming the US for all the world's woes is the very foundation of their alleged "complex and sophisticated" ideology.

The United States is "responsible" for 9/11 to the extent that our constant intrusions into Middle Eastern affairs spurred a few radicals to begin teaching that armed terrorist resistance and unswerving devotion to Sharia Law was the only effective counter measure that could liberate exploited populations from irreligious Western-backed tyrants.

After the West put down one democratic reform movement too many, these few radicals finally became a normal and accepted presence.

Not to say that the Middle East or its populations are completely innocent in these developments, but you're talking out of the side of your mouth if you expect anyone to believe you can put down a foreign people and then not expect violently xenophobic reactions.
 
Last edited:
Wow just read this OP with the voice of your favorite far-right radio commentator! It sounds like all of them rolled into one! I chose to read it using the voice of Mike Gallagher.

I decided to google "blame America for 9/11" and all I found was a few articles about Ron Paul (not a liberal fyi) a few more about Pat Robertson and Jerry Falwell (not liberals as I'm sure you know) and then a sprinkling of articles about Tony Bennett (a liberal? I had no idea). So do you, personally, know millions of liberals? I'm seeing how you could possibly determine that a notable percentage of liberals blame America for 9/11. In October, 2001, 87% of Liberals approved of Bush's performance. Over 80% supported military strikes on countries that harbored terrorists (ABC News). That was the liberal reaction to 9/11. There was no knee jerk reaction to blame America, the reaction was to rally together with everybody else -around the Republican President, mind you - against the losers that attacked our soil. Put that in your liberal hating pipe and smoke it.

Anyway, you'll sometimes hear a liberal say what you'll more often hear a libertarian say, which is that American foreign policy inevitably leads to people hating us and wanting to attack us. While we do not condone violence and certainly cannot be blamed for the action of a radical anybody committing violence against anybody, we shouldn't be surprised if people retaliate for what we do, because it is war, and people attack you when you are at war. I don't have a problem with this argument, and while I don't use it myself, it seems to be rational and I wouldn't call it "blaming America" to be reasonable and logical.
 
The United States is "responsible" for 9/11 to the extent that our constant intrusions into Middle Eastern affairs spurred a few radicals to begin teaching that armed terrorist resistance and unswerving devotion to Sharia Law was the only effective counter measure that could liberate exploited populations from irreligious Western-backed tyrants.
Or maybe, just maybe the radicals themselves are to blame for their violence. Considering they call for Jihads over so much as a Danish cartoon I'd say it doesn't take too much for them to resort to killing.

After the West put down one democratic reform movement too many, these few radicals finally became a normal and accepted presence.
Or maybe radical Islam became an accepted presence because Islam has such a huge stranglehold over the Middle East in general and is thereby keeping that region in a mentality from the Middle Ages.

Not to say that the Middle East or its populations are completely innocent in these developments,
Well glad to see that you're finally, sort of, holding the people of the Middle East responsible for their actions.

but you're talking out of the side of your mouth if you expect anyone to believe you can put down a foreign people and then not expect violently xenophobic reactions.
Well apparently we also can't even upload a YouTube video that mocks Islam without receiving a violent xenophobic reaction, so go figure.
 
I understand that there are people (mostly of the far left ideology) who like to blame the US for the 9/11 attack. The reasons they do so are listed below.

1) The first thing they'll do is reference the words of Osama Bin Laden as to why he himself claimed that Al Qaeda attacked us (which apparently was because of our occupation of Saudi Arabia and our support of Israel.) What's odd about this is leftists seem to completely disregard the fact that Bin Laden was a religiously fanatical kook who was estranged even from his own family. If a Christian extremist or right wing extremist were to write a similar rant about the motivations for their violence I doubt the far left would take it as seriously.

2) One of the main pillars of the far left ideology is that they seem to believe that blind constant dissent against the United States is a valid substitute for blind patriotism. They believe that US patriotism is something for the simple-minded working class while dissent against the US automatically equates to advanced sophisticated thinking. Hence whenever some outside group has a conflict with the US they immediately race in to take the side of that group because it suits their leftist political agenda to do so.

3) Many leftists are consumed by white guilt and/or third world guilt. Therefore if someone is dark-skinned and from an impoverished nation (as many Muslim extremists are) they automatically slap a "victim" label on them. If someone is dark-skinned and from an impoverished nation that has poor relations with the US or Israel they automatically slap an extra LARGE "victim" label on them.

4) Leftists generally blame western nations for the hatred that Muslim extremists have for us. This they do while conveniently ignoring that these extremists by their own admission are completely intolerant against other religions, gays, women and any form of freedom of expression that differs from their own. They also seem to ignore the fact that the extremists have repeatedly proven that they’re more than willing to lash out violently over the most ridiculous reasons (i.e. Youtube videos and Danish cartoons that offend them) and that they’re absolutely incapable of getting along with anyone else including moderate Muslims within their own various nations. Muslim Pakistani schoolgirl Malala Yousafza who was shot by a Taliban gunman simply because she wanted an education would likely be the first to point this out.

5) Leftists are fiercely resistant when it comes to criticizing anything that has to do with Islam. Usually what happens whenever someone criticizes a Muslim their first response will be to try and deflect all criticism over to Christianity because in their view criticizing Christianity is the height of "progressive wisdom" while criticizing Islam is considered "hate speech" and "bigotry."

6) Leftists also don't seem to want to hold Muslim extremists accountable for anything negative that they do. Therefore if a Muslim extremist commits an act of terror they immediately begin claiming that it was an act of provoked violence that should be blamed on another country’s foreign policy. Meanwhile if a US soldier, Israeli soldier or Christian extremist commits an act of terror they instantly denounce the crazed, bloodthirsty, hate-filled soldier or Christian and instantly demand full and immediate prosecution to the full extent of the law.

7) Lastly the far left has such a blinding bias toward the US in general that whenever the US (or Israel) has any kind of conflict with any nation or terrorist organization leftists instantly bendover backwards to come up with creative fabrications as to how the US or Israel provoked said conflict and this they do while ignoring how oppressive, intolerant, aggressive or brutal the opposition in that conflict actually is.


The fact is that Muslim extremists cannot be reasoned with. They are completely intolerant and violent towards anyone who doesn't share their hardline views. They routinely kill more liberal-minded Muslims in their own nations and have a history of calling for Jihads over absolutely ridiculous reasons. However as the 12th anniversary of the 9/11 attack draws near, leftists will once again ignore all of these facts because blaming the US for all the world's woes is the very foundation of their alleged "complex and sophisticated" ideology.

I can't argue with any of that and appreciate the fact you talked about the far left without confusing these dogmatic individuals with liberals. The equally dogmatic members of the far right with whom they have so much in common tend to do just that.

At the heart of so much of this IMO, is a general sense of self-loathing. People are unhappy and dissatisfied, and transfer all of their anger and lack of esteem to the general culture in which they live. They take positions reflexively instead of basing them on any sort of value system and it is always US who are at fault instead of THEM because of the way they lay the blame for all their unhappiness and shortcomings. The psychological triggers may be different than their jingoist counterparts, the latter with too strong a need to avoid ambiguity and with a strong need for being part of a group, but it is lack of self-esteem at the heart of both the jingoist and these anti-jingoist individuals.

One group may read Noam Chomsky instead of listen to Glen Beck, but they are more alike than either realizes. .
 
Wow just read this OP with the voice of your favorite far-right radio commentator!
I know that blaming the terrorists for 9/11 and holding them accountable for their religious intolerance is indeed a "rightwing" concept. :roll:

So do you, personally, know millions of liberals? I'm seeing how you could possibly determine that a notable percentage of liberals blame America for 9/11.
I never said "liberals." I said "the far left." And someone has already joined this thread to make the point that the attack was America's fault. Sorry.

In October, 2001, 87% of Liberals approved of Bush's performance. Over 80% supported military strikes on countries that harbored terrorists (ABC News). That was the liberal reaction to 9/11
But since I never said "liberals" I guess your point is irrelevant.

Let me know when you have something to say about the OP that I wrote.
 
I can't argue with any of that and appreciate the fact you talked about the far left without confusing these dogmatic individuals with liberals.
There's a clear difference between liberals and the far left and I wouldn't try to claim that they're the same.

At the heart of so much of this IMO, is a general sense of self-loathing. People are unhappy and dissatisfied, and transfer all of their anger and lack of esteem to the general culture in which they live.
I agree completely with that. The far left seems to hate the country in general so naturally they blame the attack on our actions. The foilhat kooks hate the country even more so they blatantly (and laughably) try to blame the attack on our own government.

One group may read Noam Chomsky instead of listen to Glen Beck, but they are more alike than either realizes. .
You sir are very wise. Yes I always enjoy when fanatics of one ideology criticize the fanatics in the opposing ideology. I myself happily criticize the far left but I would NEVER listen to Glenn Beck or Hannity, Limbaugh..etc.
 
Anyway, you'll sometimes hear a liberal say what you'll more often hear a libertarian say, which is that American foreign policy inevitably leads to people hating us and wanting to attack us. While we do not condone violence and certainly cannot be blamed for the action of a radical anybody committing violence against anybody, we shouldn't be surprised if people retaliate for what we do, because it is war, and people attack you when you are at war. I don't have a problem with this argument, and while I don't use it myself, it seems to be rational and I wouldn't call it "blaming America" to be reasonable and logical.

ACTUAL liberals do not take reflexively anti-American positions. They support liberal ideology.

In Bin Laden's Letters to America,he stated that we are hated for who we are and for what we do. The jingoist ignores the part about what we do and goes on and on about being hated for who we are. The anti-jingoist ignores the part about being hated for who we are and goes on and on about what we do.

The actual liberal, on the other hand, acknowledges the extremely illiberal nature of those attacking us, realizes we are being attacked BECAUSE we are liberal, and while being able to criticize those actions we take that do create problems, does not cross that line that separates analysis from apologia. Liberals acknowledge BOTH points -- that we are attacked for who we are and for what we do, the latter magnified by the general hatred of who we are.
 
In Bin Laden's Letters to America,he stated that we are hated for who we are and for what we do. The jingoist ignores the part about what we do and goes on and on about being hated for who we are. The anti-jingoist ignores the part about being hated for who we are and goes on and on about what we do.
Brilliantly stated. In terms of bias, there is no real difference between the rightwinger's ("they hate us for our freedoms") and the far left's ("we provoked them with our imperialism.") Both are only narrowly defining the 9/11 attack by what suits their political agenda.
 
Brilliantly stated. In terms of bias, there is no real difference between the rightwinger's ("they hate us for our freedoms") and the far left's ("we provoked them with our imperialism.") Both are only narrowly defining the 9/11 attack by what suits their political agenda.

Thanks!

What I have found, too, is that if you don't define 9/11 according to one very narrow-minded agenda or the other, you will be accused as being of the opposing side by either.

Another observation I have had over the years is that since the original neocons were disaffected liberals who sought a more muscular foreign policy by way of expanding western liberalism overseas, those who are so limited in their ability to understand that all they know is neocon=bogeyman tend to throw out the baby with the bathwater. Ignoring for the moment what neocons have become or what we might associate with them by way of domestic policy, in foreign policy terms the original movement was to try to liberalize illiberal people. In rejecting ALL neocon ideology, the reactive portion of the left also rejects some of the basis for liberal ideology. They have left liberalism behind and replaced many liberal tenets with what amounts to little more than the talking points of the extremely illiberal people who hate us so. I was absolutely shocked when I first started discussing politics online in the late 90s at how so many people on the left were indulging in the sort of rhetoric that was more or less the sole province of neo-nazis when I was a kid. It has only become more pronounced since as the repetition of the generalized talking points of Islamists has become so pervasive.

It's like watching a virus of words spreading throughout a certain portion of the population.
 
Or maybe, just maybe the radicals themselves are to blame for their violence. Considering they call for Jihads over so much as a Danish cartoon I'd say it doesn't take too much for them to resort to killing.

Thanks to humanity's tribalistic nature, it doesn't take much for anybody to resort to killing in such circumstances. If foreign powers were continually exercising their authority over the behavior and political arrangements of the United States, xenophobic violence and "Fred Phelps" types would become normal very fast.

Or maybe radical Islam became an accepted presence because Islam has such a huge stranglehold over the Middle East in general and is thereby keeping that region in a mentality from the Middle Ages.

In some regions, like Pakistan's tribal area or Afghanistan, medieval attitudes have held sway for centuries. However, the old centers of power that were administrative zones of the British Empire had large, robust middle classes with relatively normalized secular, democratic views. The democratic movements of the 50s reflected this. The democratic aspects of those movements disagreed with the economic goals of Western powers, so they replaced 'democracy' with 'tyranny'. The basic arrangement was to prop up an alliance of powerful families and have them rule over everybody else in exchange for a larger cut of the oil profits than they would have received had the fields become national property or been otherwise organized so that a larger share of the wealth became distributed across Middle Eastern society.

Well glad to see that you're finally, sort of, holding the people of the Middle East responsible for their actions.

I'm not holding anyone responsible for anything. That implies power that I do not have. I'm pointing out that people are responsible for the consequences of their actions, both the West and the Middle East.

Well apparently we also can't even upload a YouTube video that mocks Islam without receiving a violent xenophobic reaction, so go figure.

No. Every ounce of political and economic power Muslims have been able to eke out out of a global system that has been highly unfavorable to them will be applied against the West with as much force as they can muster. From their perspective, they don't owe us anything else.

Their perspective isn't entirely correct, but it isn't totally without merit either.
 
Last edited:
If foreign powers were continually exercising their authority over the behavior and political arrangements of the United States, xenophobic violence and "Fred Phelps" types would become normal very fast.
That's nice...except it doesn't even take that to provoke Islamic extremists into violence. They'll become violent over something as trivial as a youtube video.

The democratic movements of the 50s reflected this. The democratic aspects of those movements disagreed with the economic goals of Western powers, so they replaced 'democracy' with 'tyranny'.
Iran has an elected president but it doesn't change the fact that Iran is under the stranglehold of Islam.

I'm not holding anyone responsible for anything.
Actually you are, you're holding western nations responsible for Islamic extremism violence and you seem to be strongly resisting holding Muslims responsible for Islamic extremism violence.

No. Every ounce of political and economic power Muslims have been able to eke out out of a global system that has been highly unfavorable to them will be applied against the West with as much force as they can muster. From their perspective, they don't owe us anything else.
I see, so you're refusing to denounce Muslims who become violent over a youtube video. Is that correct?
 
That's nice...except it doesn't even take that to provoke Islamic extremists into violence. They'll become violent over something as trivial as a youtube video.

Because they don't feel like they owe you anything. When somebody doesn't owe you anything, or indeed that they are owed something, then they are happy to cause you trouble for any reason.

For example, conservatives don't believe they owe Obama anything, so they are happy to trouble him over anything no matter how mild.

Iran has an elected president but it doesn't change the fact that Iran is under the stranglehold of Islam.

Iran's democracy is packaged in theocracy and backed up by military force. You don't have the ability to organize a political party that doesn't conform to the moral specifications of the clerics. Its a Xanatos gambit where the religious elite always wins because you can't create an organization that is capable of challenging them, their laws, or their influence on the military.

Actually you are, you're holding western nations responsible for Islamic extremism violence and you seem to be strongly resisting holding Muslims responsible for Islamic extremism violence.

"sigh" Okay, tough guy.

I see, so you're refusing to denounce Muslims who become violent over a youtube video. Is that correct?

Certainly not in this thread, or for your satisfaction. If I denounce them it will be for my own reasons on my own time, which has nothing to do with you.
 
Last edited:
Certainly not in this thread, or for your satisfaction. If I denounce them it will be for my own reasons on my own time, which has nothing to do with you.

AKA -- the free pass.

People do seem to come up with endlessly creative reasons for giving them.
 
AKA -- the free pass.

People do seem to come up with endlessly creative reasons for giving them.

That's a perception born of your own sense of entitlement.

The only thing you can expect, whether concessions or material goods, from people who don't owe you anything is . . . nothing.

The worldview you abide by is one where political opponents owe you something, and where you and your allies owe nothing.
 
That's a perception born of your own sense of entitlement.

The only thing you can expect, whether concessions or material goods, from people who don't owe you anything is . . . nothing.

The worldview you abide by is one where political opponents owe you something, and where you and your allies owe nothing.

AKA-- "I give Islamists going ape **** over a youtube video a free pass, but you sure won't get one cause you're so entitled".
 
AKA-- "I give Islamists going ape **** over a youtube video a free pass, but you sure won't get one cause you're so entitled".

On the contrary, I haven't given them anything. Barely even acknowledgement.
 
Back
Top Bottom