'Blair is world's worst terrorist': families of Iraq war victims on Chilcot report

[Infinite Chaos]

Re: 'Blair is world's worst terrorist': families of Iraq war victims on Chilcot repor

I've struggled the last couple of days with the report and listening to families. I apologise if I've been aggressive or rude I've just trying to defend myself.
I served in Basra during the war and as some of you know in the last few years I worked in Syria/Anbar with the BBC on security detail.
I was so proud of my service in Basra because we did such a good job. We dealt with insurgents, worked well with the locals and when I left I was proud. As the years went by I felt guilt when I saw what Iraq became so I went back to cover the Syrian civil conflict and Iraq.

I know deep down that everyone in this thread is probably right and we were wrong to go but I struggle with this.
I stand by what I said about Saddam and about ISIS in Syria but I guess it's hard to know that you ultimately lost and that you lost friends for nothing. That's on me though so I apologise.

For any squaddie, that old cliche about time being a great healer is the best way to look at it. The troops don't make policy, politicians do - don't take any guilt from the decisions made by those who sent you there mate.

 

[Andalublue]

Re: 'Blair is world's worst terrorist': families of Iraq war victims on Chilcot repor

I've struggled the last couple of days with the report and listening to families. I apologise if I've been aggressive or rude I've just trying to defend myself.
I served in Basra during the war and as some of you know in the last few years I worked in Syria/Anbar with the BBC on security detail.
I was so proud of my service in Basra because we did such a good job. We dealt with insurgents, worked well with the locals and when I left I was proud. As the years went by I felt guilt when I saw what Iraq became so I went back to cover the Syrian civil conflict and Iraq.

I know deep down that everyone in this thread is probably right and we were wrong to go but I struggle with this.
I stand by what I said about Saddam and about ISIS in Syria but I guess it's hard to know that you ultimately lost and that you lost friends for nothing. That's on me though so I apologise.

Higgins, I can understand that this whole debate must reopen some very raw wounds for the people who served over there, but they all did their very best to do the job that they were asked to do, and witnessed or suffered directly from the consequences of that ill-considered war. You have NOTHING to feel guilt for in the mistakes that caused that war, nor for the failure of planning for its conduct or aftermath.

As you know, I opposed and criticised that action from the start and am happy to see the results of the Chilcot inquiry concur with the majority opinion of the British people. Having said that, I have nothing but gratitude and respect for the people who placed themselves in the line of fire and desperately hope that even if you did agree with the government's decision to back Bush's coalition adventure, you do not feel as if your contribution is negated because of the horrific mistakes of your commanders, military and political.

You're a patriotic, conservatively-minded guy, I get that. We aren't on the same sheet on most subjects, but you have my admiration and gratitude for your military service, whatever role it was that you played. I'm also so sorry that you all were the proverbial lions led by donkeys, and ass-in-chief was the execrable Tony Blair.

 

[SheWolf]

Re: 'Blair is world's worst terrorist': families of Iraq war victims on Chilcot repor

The bothersome thing in all this is how the superlative in the thread title (cited as said by others, not credited by the OP) doesn't even really apply. Where I totally understand the anger, frustrations and grief of the families and subsequently how emotiveness will lead to such descriptions, the appalling truth is that those responsible are of appalling mediocrity.

Were they evil villains one would at least have something to get one's teeth into without any equivocation possible.

But these "leaders" are so damn average. Average intelligence, average skills, average integrity, average courage, average sense of responsibility, average absence of sense of honor, average everything, in short so far removed from even beginning hints of excellence that one need worry as to what the hell one gets to vote for at all. And then gets governed and led by.

From Downing Street to Whitehall to Westminster and then on to Congress, the Pentagon and the Oval Office, what a bunch of mediocre inconsequential twits playing at being THE leaders of nations and THE kings of the field.

Heck, even a supreme piece of dung like Saddam had more character.

Bush isn't an evil man. He is very likable in many ways, but ironically he was and remains one of the weakest presidential leaders in US history. He was a puppet of the neocons and Chaney. All of the blame shouldn't fall on his head, but he derseves a heavy handed judgement nonetheless. He was the most powerful person in the world. His role is significant.

 

[Apocalypse]

Re: 'Blair is world's worst terrorist': families of Iraq war victims on Chilcot repor

It has always been my opinion that what really screwed things up is the way the withdrawal from Iraq was handled and not necessarily the war itself and the justified removal of the horrible Saddam regime. Regardless I do not believe we can declare what would happen had the West not invaded Iraq. It could have been better, it could have been even worse. The only certainty here is that the Middle East could not and would not have suddenly become a paradise on Earth.

 

[Higgins86]

Re: 'Blair is world's worst terrorist': families of Iraq war victims on Chilcot repor

Thanks for the kind words gang, we don't know each other but after years of posting on here I respect you all and it was nice to hear the responses to my drunken post.
Took the day off work yesterday to go walking in Brecon to clear the old head. Back working the night shift tonight buy feeling a lot better.

 

[Infinite Chaos]

Re: 'Blair is world's worst terrorist': families of Iraq war victims on Chilcot repor

~ walking in Brecon ~

Brecon Beacons?

Beautiful walking territory, my art teacher at school used to take us out waterfall walking once every 3 weeks there. My favourite school memories.

 

[Andalublue]

Re: 'Blair is world's worst terrorist': families of Iraq war victims on Chilcot repor

Took the day off work yesterday to go walking in Brecon to clear the old head.

Excellent strategy! The Brecon Beacons are gorgeous, when you can spot them through the drizzle.

 

[Chagos]

Re: 'Blair is world's worst terrorist': families of Iraq war victims on Chilcot repor

Thanks for the kind words gang, we don't know each other but after years of posting on here I respect you all and it was nice to hear the responses to my drunken post.
Took the day off work yesterday to go walking in Brecon to clear the old head. Back working the night shift tonight buy feeling a lot better.

Yay :thumbs::applaud

 

[yankintx]

Re: 'Blair is world's worst terrorist': families of Iraq war victims on Chilcot repor

At least the Brits are attempting to hold those responsible for the unjust war. It will be a cold day in hell before Bush2, Cheney, Rumsfeld, and Rice are hung out to dry for there lies and incompetance that was the post invasion.

 

[joG]

Re: 'Blair is world's worst terrorist': families of Iraq war victims on Chilcot repor

At least the Brits are attempting to hold those responsible for the unjust war. It will be a cold day in hell before Bush2, Cheney, Rumsfeld, and Rice are hung out to dry for there lies and incompetance that was the post invasion.

Which unjust war? It was too expensive and the aftermath was not well managed. But it was legal and legitimate and would have even have been worthwhile, had the effects whose symptoms can be seen in the fundamental change to the Norms of the UN been followed up on. But we let that prospect dribble unused into the sand.

 

[Andalublue]

Re: 'Blair is world's worst terrorist': families of Iraq war victims on Chilcot repor

Which unjust war? It was too expensive and the aftermath was not well managed. But it was legal and legitimate and would have even have been worthwhile, had the effects whose symptoms can be seen in the fundamental change to the Norms of the UN been followed up on. But we let that prospect dribble unused into the sand.

Legality and legitimacy of going to war is purely a matter of opinion.

Who decides if a war is legal?

 

[joG]

Re: 'Blair is world's worst terrorist': families of Iraq war victims on Chilcot repor

Legality and legitimacy of going to war is purely a matter of opinion.

Who decides if a war is legal?

I just read five or six of the articles and the Iraq Options Paper. And yes, we all know that The Guardian did not like Bush or Blair for that matter. But I did not see any incriminating evidence and certainly nothing that was really new. It did demonstrate a misunderstanding of the UN Resolutions on Iraq and the mission to inspect. It was Saddam Hussein's responsibility to show, where the WDM had gone, that the UN inspectors had identified after IraqI. The UN inspectors were necessary only because Saddam did not comply with the Security Council Resolution.

PS: there is a difference between legitimacy and legality. One is interpreted as not only subjective, but dependent on subjective assumptions, while the other is supposed to be as objective as humans can be.

 

[Andalublue]

Re: 'Blair is world's worst terrorist': families of Iraq war victims on Chilcot repor

I just read five or six of the articles and the Iraq Options Paper. And yes, we all know that The Guardian did not like Bush or Blair for that matter. But I did not see any incriminating evidence and certainly nothing that was really new. It did demonstrate a misunderstanding of the UN Resolutions on Iraq and the mission to inspect. It was Saddam Hussein's responsibility to show, where the WDM had gone, that the UN inspectors had identified after IraqI. The UN inspectors were necessary only because Saddam did not comply with the Security Council Resolution.

PS: there is a difference between legitimacy and legality. One is interpreted as not only subjective, but dependent on subjective assumptions, while the other is supposed to be as objective as humans can be.

So, perhaps you'd like to quotes the documents and/or treaties of international law that pertain to the decision to go to war, and how you think the US/UK coalition fulfilled those criteria. FFS they went to war without even a declaration of war according to the Geneva Conventions.

You clearly only assume The Guardian doesn't like Blair because it fits your fallacious 'blame the messenger' strategy. I take that line too on occasions, when I think the source is disreputable. Are you accusing The Guardian of being disreputable?

 

[Chagos]

Re: 'Blair is world's worst terrorist': families of Iraq war victims on Chilcot repor

To assume that legitimacy holds lesser import than legality on the mindless presumption of the former being based solely on subjectivity where the latter is by default objective and thus irreproachable, is about the most stupid thing I've read on this whole matter outside of press and media coverage.

Such can only spring from minds of those whose moral compass is either in dire need of total re-calibration or was never even held in possession in the first place.

 

[joG]

Re: 'Blair is world's worst terrorist': families of Iraq war victims on Chilcot repor

So, perhaps you'd like to quotes the documents and/or treaties of international law that pertain to the decision to go to war, and how you think the US/UK coalition fulfilled those criteria. FFS they went to war without even a declaration of war according to the Geneva Conventions.

You clearly only assume The Guardian doesn't like Blair because it fits your fallacious 'blame the messenger' strategy. I take that line too on occasions, when I think the source is disreputable. Are you accusing The Guardian of being disreputable?

Actually, the process is the other way around. The accusation must be substantiated and the law quoted that is used as a basis. I read the Conventions numerous times in this context and do not think you have much of a basis to justify your insults.

 

[joG]

Re: 'Blair is world's worst terrorist': families of Iraq war victims on Chilcot repor

To assume that legitimacy holds lesser import than legality on the mindless presumption of the former being based solely on subjectivity where the latter is by default objective and thus irreproachable, is about the most stupid thing I've read on this whole matter outside of press and media coverage.

Such can only spring from minds of those whose moral compass is either in dire need of total re-calibration or was never even held in possession in the first place.

Legality is clear clear, where laws are well written and unambiguous. In this sense legality should be as objectively determinable as human things can be. Legitimacy is more a thing of belief and therefore more subjective. What is more the legitimacy of an institution like the state is dependent on these subjective judgments of its greater or lesser legitimacy.

What is clear, however, is that actions that are legal and or legitimate are therefore necessarily irreproachable, as you seem to think.

 

[yankintx]

Re: 'Blair is world's worst terrorist': families of Iraq war victims on Chilcot repor

Which unjust war? It was too expensive and the aftermath was not well managed. But it was legal and legitimate and would have even have been worthwhile, had the effects whose symptoms can be seen in the fundamental change to the Norms of the UN been followed up on. But we let that prospect dribble unused into the sand.

Legitamate my ass

 

[joG]

Re: 'Blair is world's worst terrorist': families of Iraq war victims on Chilcot repor

Legitamate my ass

Legitimacy is an odd animal. It depends on the acceptance by the population and it is only a valid measure at the time of the take. At the time of the event, most Americans thought it was legitimate and demanded invasion. As a matter of fact, the only groups in a PEW survey that did not in their majority want military action were Females over 65 and Democrats over 65. So it was legitimate.

Now in retrospect, lots of folks say they didn't know this or that. I believe them. And I think they are a reprehensible lot that do not understand democracy. At the time, I kept very much abreast of the step by step occurrences and available information. Afterwards I followed the evidence and read literally thousands of pages. There was no piece of intelligence both relevant and decisive to the decision to invade that has come to light and was unknown or unexpected. Anyone could have known the parameters of the decision, if they had put in the effort. This was a relatively important decision and saying one did not know is as ingenious as voting the present candidates for the nomination to run for President. As democrats every one of the people claiming too little knowledge fail.

That does not mean that legitimacy has not been lost. But that has nothing to do with the legitimacy of the invasion.

 

[Infinite Chaos]

Re: 'Blair is world's worst terrorist': families of Iraq war victims on Chilcot repor

Iraq has come to dominate the Blair legacy to such an extent that many of his notable achievements - the Good Friday agreement, devolution to Scotland and Wales, the minimum wage and a number of social reforms are doomed to shelter under its shadow.

Historians in the future will be able to restore some balance to the record (and to assess whether some classic Blair reforms, like the Private Finance Initiative and student loans and NHS reorganisation, have stood the test of time), but not yet.

His tragedy is that the progressive figure he wanted to be - the first prime minister born after World War Two, who gave the Labour Party a new appeal to the generation dubbed "the millennials" - will be obscured by his most momentous decision.
How Tony Blair came to be so unpopular - BBC News

I voted Blair all 3 times and I think for quite a while into the Iraq war I supported the cause, certainly supported our people on the ground all the way through but boy, how far the Blair star has fallen.

Which unjust war? ~

You been on another planet these last 15 years?

 

[joG]

Re: 'Blair is world's worst terrorist': families of Iraq war victims on Chilcot repor

I voted Blair all 3 times and I think for quite a while into the Iraq war I supported the cause, certainly supported our people on the ground all the way through but boy, how far the Blair star has fallen.



You been on another planet these last 15 years?

Blair looked cool and talked really well. 'never really liked him, though; a little like hubby Clinton. But his policies were okay by comparison.


I really don't know, what you mean. If it is IraqII you mean, it was not "unjust". It was totally legal and legitimate, but too expensive and the local aftermath was not well managed.

 

[Chagos]

Re: 'Blair is world's worst terrorist': families of Iraq war victims on Chilcot repor

~You been on another planet these last 15 years?

wrong tense.

 

[PeteEU]

Re: 'Blair is world's worst terrorist': families of Iraq war victims on Chilcot repor

wrong tense.

And planet is questionable too!.. thinking different universe!