Black Lives Matter and Police Brutality[W:50]

[Caine]

Re: Black Lives Matter and Police Brutality

So you're going with the argument that Tamir's race partially justifies his shooting.

I've never stated that his race "justifies his shooting". This is absolutely dishonest of you.

As I pointed out, hip hop culture is hardly the only American subculture to glorify violence.

No. But hip-hop culture IS very popular among GANG MEMBERS. Gang members recruit young teen-aged, mostly black, youths to engage in violence. Hip-Hop glorifies gang violence. Police are trained to be suspicious of youth carrying guns due to the violence perpetrated by young gang members.

I notice you ignore the cops' behavior after the shooting ... you're arguing on the side of remorseless killers.

Because their behavior AFTER the shooting has no bearing on whether or not their decision AT THE TIME was as the courts would deem "reasonable" or "unreasonable".

Somehow the existence of black lives matter justifies a complete lack of empathy on the part of officers who shoot children?

No. But legally it is disadvantageous to make any comments like the ones you want made when there is the potential for a lawsuit or criminal prosecution of the matter.

Your argument fails on both a rational and moral level.

Your argument fails on a legal level. Which is a bit more important when looking at an issue of a possible criminal incident, and to include the possibility of a civil lawsuit.

 

[GhostlyJoe]

Re: Black Lives Matter and Police Brutality

I've never stated that his race "justifies his shooting". This is absolutely dishonest of you.
No. But hip-hop culture IS very popular among GANG MEMBERS. Gang members recruit young teen-aged, mostly black, youths to engage in violence. Hip-Hop glorifies gang violence. Police are trained to be suspicious of youth carrying guns due to the violence perpetrated by young gang members.

Because their behavior AFTER the shooting has no bearing on whether or not their decision AT THE TIME was as the courts would deem "reasonable" or "unreasonable".

No. But legally it is disadvantageous to make any comments like the ones you want made when there is the potential for a lawsuit or criminal prosecution of the matter.

Your argument fails on a legal level. Which is a bit more important when looking at an issue of a possible criminal incident, and to include the possibility of a civil lawsuit.

The racism is inherent in your chain of logic: Tamir was black, Tamir had a toy gun, therefore, Tamir was emulating criminal behavior (you know, hip hop culture = gangs, as you stated above). Tamir could have just as easily been playing Rambo, based solely on his observable behavior.

That becomes a problem when you allow the police so much tactical leeway based on those cultural assumptions. You're arguing that the cops had no choice but to treat Tamir as an imminent threat in part because you assume he liked hip-hop and therefore could be a gang member. As it turns out, Tamir wasn't a gang member but was a kid with a toy gun. The assumptions were completely false. That very aptly demonstrates the failings of the cultural biases you're attempting to defend.

And despite your insistence that the officers' actions after the shooting are irrelevant, I think they show the mind-state, the lack of concern for the boy's welfare, the disregard for the value of the boy's life.

That's what people are protesting: culturally biased and callous policing. Both of those things were on ready display in this incident.

 

[dirtpoorchris]

Re: Black Lives Matter and Police Brutality

Is that what the Black Lies Matter people are saying about it now?

:rofl

If you were standing in a park pointing something off in the distance. And I drove up 50 feet from you. You havent turned around yet. I then got out of the car. Said NOTHING. You still havnt noticed me and looked at me. I then proceed to shoot you until you die. Would you say that means I snuck up on you?

Driving up behind someone. Never announcing you are police or demanding them to surrender. Shooting them dead. Person never noticed the cops.

 

[Excon]

Re: Black Lives Matter and Police Brutality

If you were standing in a park pointing something off in the distance. And I drove up 50 feet from you. You havent turned around yet. I then got out of the car. Said NOTHING. You still havnt noticed me and looked at me. I then proceed to shoot you until you die. Would you say that means I snuck up on you?

Driving up behind someone. Never announcing you are police or demanding them to surrender. Shooting them dead. Person never noticed the cops.

Stupid reply.
That isn't what happened.
Tamir was drawing on the Officer and had been told three times to put his hands up.

 

[Caine]

Re: Black Lives Matter and Police Brutality

The racism is inherent in your chain of logic: Tamir was black, Tamir had a toy gun, therefore, Tamir was emulating criminal behavior (you know, hip hop culture = gangs, as you stated above). Tamir could have just as easily been playing Rambo, based solely on his observable behavior.

That becomes a problem when you allow the police so much tactical leeway based on those cultural assumptions. You're arguing that the cops had no choice but to treat Tamir as an imminent threat in part because you assume he liked hip-hop and therefore could be a gang member. As it turns out, Tamir wasn't a gang member but was a kid with a toy gun. The assumptions were completely false. That very aptly demonstrates the failings of the cultural biases you're attempting to defend.

And despite your insistence that the officers' actions after the shooting are irrelevant, I think they show the mind-state, the lack of concern for the boy's welfare, the disregard for the value of the boy's life.

That's what people are protesting: culturally biased and callous policing. Both of those things were on ready display in this incident.

LOL...... No.. People didn't call because a kid had a toy gun at a park... Two calls came in because a kid was playing with what people called a "pistol" POINTING IT AT PEOPLE at the park. The 2nd call stated it was "probably fake".

There is a huge difference between the narrative you keep trying to paint and the reality of what was occurring at the time.

As for twisting every word I say into something to try to paint a picture of racism, GTFO of here with that Al Sharpton bull****. Im not assuming he is emulating being a gangster or hip hop crap based upon his race. I am stating it because it is evidence in the video. Have you bothered to watch the full video? Not just the part where the police show up? But the full thing? If not, you ought to educate yourself and watch it before accusing someone of racism. (Typical liberal response to anything, I know).

As far as your comments about "cultural bias". There is a difference between cultural bias and "learning from mistakes of the past" and reality. The fact that gang members DO in fact recruit young teenagers to fight their street wars, including against the police, means that police HAVE TO BE COGNIZANT OF THIS REALITY. That cannot simply dismiss someone as a threat based upon their age alone. Therefore, someone with a gun, pointing it at people in the park threatening the public is what they have to respond to. Not "a kid with a toy".

Also, if you bother to watch the video, you will notice that right before the police show up, he makes a move towards his waistband. A typical place for people to conceal firearms on their person, as police are trained to observe for, and exactly what the police stated turned this incident into one where they felt that deadly force was necessary.

 

[Caine]

Re: Black Lives Matter and Police Brutality

If you were standing in a park pointing something off in the distance. And I drove up 50 feet from you. You havent turned around yet. I then got out of the car. Said NOTHING. You still havnt noticed me and looked at me. I then proceed to shoot you until you die. Would you say that means I snuck up on you?

Driving up behind someone. Never announcing you are police or demanding them to surrender. Shooting them dead. Person never noticed the cops.

Behind???? LOL.. I don't think so.

You need to go watch the video and stop being a fool about this incident.

 

[GhostlyJoe]

Re: Black Lives Matter and Police Brutality

LOL...... No.. People didn't call because a kid had a toy gun at a park... Two calls came in because a kid was playing with what people called a "pistol" POINTING IT AT PEOPLE at the park. The 2nd call stated it was "probably fake".

There is a huge difference between the narrative you keep trying to paint and the reality of what was occurring at the time.

As for twisting every word I say into something to try to paint a picture of racism, GTFO of here with that Al Sharpton bull****. Im not assuming he is emulating being a gangster or hip hop crap based upon his race. I am stating it because it is evidence in the video. Have you bothered to watch the full video? Not just the part where the police show up? But the full thing? If not, you ought to educate yourself and watch it before accusing someone of racism. (Typical liberal response to anything, I know).

As far as your comments about "cultural bias". There is a difference between cultural bias and "learning from mistakes of the past" and reality. The fact that gang members DO in fact recruit young teenagers to fight their street wars, including against the police, means that police HAVE TO BE COGNIZANT OF THIS REALITY. That cannot simply dismiss someone as a threat based upon their age alone. Therefore, someone with a gun, pointing it at people in the park threatening the public is what they have to respond to. Not "a kid with a toy".

Also, if you bother to watch the video, you will notice that right before the police show up, he makes a move towards his waistband. A typical place for people to conceal firearms on their person, as police are trained to observe for, and exactly what the police stated turned this incident into one where they felt that deadly force was necessary.

You said this earlier:

But hip-hop culture IS very popular among GANG MEMBERS. Gang members recruit young teen-aged, mostly black, youths to engage in violence. Hip-Hop glorifies gang violence. Police are trained to be suspicious of youth carrying guns due to the violence perpetrated by young gang members.

You staight-out argued that police are justified in being more aggressive with black kids because they're more likely to be gang members. You're trying to have it both ways: You want to justify the shooting based on Tamir's race, but then deflect accusations that you're using race as a metric for policing. That's either some real cognitive dissonance, or you're trying to dance around the racism in your argument.

Most black kids are not gang members. Tamir, in reality, wasn't a gang member. Tamir, in reality, didn't have a "pistol." Therefore, those assumptions, based on your made-up association of Tamir to hip-hop culture, were flat-out wrong. The cops shouldn't have shot that kid, and they damn well should have shown compassion to him and his family after the shooting. Can you at least admit that they should have tended to the boy after shooting him and realizing he wasn't a gang-banging thug but was instead a kid with a toy?

Let me turn your argument around on you: Most school shootings have been perpetrated by disaffected, white boys. Should police also take an aggressive stance against white kids with toy guns and just assume that they're probably mass murderers on the way to the slaughter? It's absurd. Police need to act with restraint and have situational awareness, not act on some severely flawed cultural assumptions.

 

[Caine]

Re: Black Lives Matter and Police Brutality

You said this earlier:

You staight-out argued that police are justified in being more aggressive with black kids because they're more likely to be gang members. You're trying to have it both ways: You want to justify the shooting based on Tamir's race, but then deflect accusations that you're using race as a metric for policing. That's either some real cognitive dissonance, or you're trying to dance around the racism in your argument.

Most black kids are not gang members. Tamir, in reality, wasn't a gang member. Tamir, in reality, didn't have a "pistol." Therefore, those assumptions, based on your made-up association of Tamir to hip-hop culture, were flat-out wrong. The cops shouldn't have shot that kid, and they damn well should have shown compassion to him and his family after the shooting. Can you at least admit that they should have tended to the boy after shooting him and realizing he wasn't a gang-banging thug but was instead a kid with a toy?

Let me turn your argument around on you: Most school shootings have been perpetrated by disaffected, white boys. Should police also take an aggressive stance against white kids with toy guns and just assume that they're probably mass murderers on the way to the slaughter? It's absurd. Police need to act with restraint and have situational awareness, not act on some severely flawed cultural assumptions.

And again... Nowhere in my post did I specify BLACK KIDS, like you keep trying to put in my mouth.
I stated that the AGE OF A TEENAGER WHO HAS A GUN IS IRRELEVANT TO POLICE WHEN HANDLING THE SITUATION. The gang member theory was thrown in only because of how this SPECIFIC KID was acting. Its on video, if you wish to watch it.

Which brings me to my other point.... I see you still haven't bothered to watch the video.... still trying to pull all the Race Grievence Industry talking points on me.

I see you also keep calling it a toy gun. A toy gun which had no visual resemblance to a toy gun. A toy gun which a caller stated in a second call "is probably fake".

Let me ask you this. If a guy came and held you up at gunpoint with a "pistol" that looked like Tamir Rice's pistol did, would you consider this a threat of death or serious bodily injury? And if it were a teenager, would it make this threat seem less of a threat?

As for your last point.... Yes, police should take an aggressive stance with ANY teenager running around the park pointing a pistol at people, and then walking towards police reaching for their waistband when police arrive on scene. It matters not their race, clothing, favorite food, religion, sexual preference, <insert more descriptive **** here>.


These police did have EXCELLENT situational awareness. They identified the subject who made a move for their waistband and eliminated what they reasonably (under the law) saw as a threat.

For the love of god, and the last time... the police did not act on cultural assumptions. Firearm? Check. Reaching for waistband, which is a place where people conceal weapons and advancing towards the police? Check.

Reasonable use of force to eliminated the imminent death or serious bodily harm to the officers.

The fact that the very real looking pistol ended up being an airsoft gun with absolutely no markers is irrelevant, as the only information used to judge a situation is that which was available to the officers at the time of the incident.



The fact that I mentioned gang members, is to demonstrate WHY police should NEVER ASSUME that a teenager isn't a deadly threat. Because gang members do recruit young teenagers to do their work, which includes assault with a deadly weapon (gun).


I also find it very laughable that you claim that I made up the assumption of him having a pistol. I refer you to the photo I used several pages ago which you still ignore.


I think we are done here. You are nit picking looking for a way to call me a racist, and ignoring many facts of the ACTUAL CASE, while I am providing you information, typing my little fingers away, only for you to ignore everything I type so that you can continue to try to call someone a racist.



Your a waste of ****ing time.