Black Lies Matter

[calamity]

The riot was an expression of MANY things, it wasn't as if it was a happy little community that suddenly exploded because a cop shot and killed a citizen. Your narrative ABSOLUTELY relies on a simplistic story...because it has to.

So is your narrative going to morph into "The rioters are the thugs stopping the kids from getting a job"? Your obsessive mis-focus and mis-diagnosis on the riot is distracting you from your original point, that the lack of policing is the issue in communities like Ferguson. You grabbed on to the riot as if it explains everything about Ferguson, it doesn't, it was a release that has now brought focus on what is really wrong in communities like Ferguson, and it is not a lack of policing, in point of fact it is the exact OPPOSITE. The city switched to using civil violations when other revenue sources (mainly tax revenues) declined after the crash. Of course, that was about the worst thing to do since those that were getting hit with the stepped up enforcement....were the segment of the population hardest hit by the recession.

Well, I'll repeat myself. The people in that community should have protested those issues, not burned down the city because the state would not hand them the head of an innocent white cop who shot a black criminal dead in self-defense when attacked by him.

 

[RetiredUSN]

Though blacks make up only two-thirds of Ferguson’s population, nearly nine-tenths of vehicle stops in Ferguson involve black drivers. Those drivers are almost twice as likely as white drivers to be searched and twice as likely to be arrested. That’s despite the fact that searches of black drivers result in discovery of contraband 22% of the time, while white drivers searched by police are found to have contraband 34% of the time.

The Ferguson Police Dept was 94% white in 2014.

The DOJ couldn't find any hiring practice violations on the police force even though they tried. Blacks were not applying. Can you show me where the PD was turning away black applicants?

 

[Gimmesometruth]

According to the Missouri Uniform Crime Reporting Program, which provides crime statistics for every city in Missouri according to age, sex, crime type and race since 2001 (the Justice Department report examined only a sample size of the last three years)

The U.S. Department of Justice report about the Ferguson, Mo., police department found the arrest of blacks was disproportionate to their numbers in the community. It concluded that the only possible explanation for the racial disparity was that the Ferguson Police Department was routinely violating the constitutional rights of its black residents.

 

[Mr Person]

IMO it was the rush to balance the equation during the period of reverse-discrimination we call "Affirmative Action" that has led to this problem today.

We American's don't like to take our time to get things right. We prefer to rush things, and then try to fix the problems caused by rushing afterwards. Usually by throwing money at whatever pops up which serves to cause even more problems later.

So what was Society's answer to 400 years of bad policy and social oppression? Let's give unqualified, under-educated, ill-trained people access to jobs and functions they were incapable of handling. When this proved problematic, we just covered up the social stresses with more and more social aid programs.

Sixty years later we have two generations of entitled citizens many of whom blame everyone else for their failure to achieve rather than learning to knuckle down and strive to succeed on their own merits/efforts.

The man on the radio was right. I observed the same thing in the 60's, 70's and 80's when Affirmative Action was in it's hay-day. A sharp division of my peers between those who committed to hard work and proper use of the new advantages and the greater majority who denigrated those involved as being "uncle toms" and "new slaves" etc.

IMO what we should have done was evened the playing field by supporting education and vocational training access programs, coupled with work-experience programs. Then passing anti-discrimination laws that emphasized training, ability and experience rather than simply the color of one's skin. That way minority youth would have been indoctrinated with the go-getter initiative which made our country great, rather than this idea of entitlement simply because of what great-grandpa had experienced.

I don't see how any of this supports your thesis that "affirmative action" is what causes the kind of thing the OP describes. Gangs harass non-gang members in ghettos who get jobs because a black candidate might get into a college over an equally qualified white candidate? Thugs vandalize students' books because ... affirmative action? What kind of sense does that make?

(Besides, the kind of thing the OP describes is endemic to all broken poor ghetto areas in other countries. If American "affirmative action" policies were to blame, then American cities would be the only ones with the kind of ghetto culture you describe)

I think you're just trying to blame something bad on something you don't like for entirely different reasons.

 

[calamity]

I'm sure you can come up with all sorts of imagined answers from me, just like you can start a thread based on non-attributed comments by something you heard by some on a show somewhere.....instead of actually using fact based argument from reputable sources....and sticking to said argument.

I visited Emerson Electric a few times for meetings and training back when the city was still a nice place. They owned one of the companies that hired me as a young engineer. Early 90's, Bush was still President. No problems.

 

[Gimmesometruth]

Well, I'll repeat myself. The people in that community should have protested those issues, not burned down the city because the state would not hand them the head of an innocent white cop who shot a black criminal dead in self-defense when attacked by him.

They were protesting those issues, it wasn't the one thing.

But keep on avoiding discussing those other things, keep focusing on one thing you think the protest was about.

 

[Gimmesometruth]

I visited Emerson Electric a few times when the city was still a nice place. Early 90's, Bush was still President. No problems.

Sure, it was a happy little community, even though you agreed with navy that it had long standing issues.

Keep flipping the script.

 

[Mr Person]

The man brought up another good point that I haven't heard before. He said that the new rules on discrimination have actually backfired.

His argument was that it is actually harder now for a young black man to get an opportunity to prove himself in an office environment because potential employers are now hesitant to hire a black person for fear that some email or overheard off-color joke will result in a lawsuit. He was quick to add that those remarks and comments are of course offensive and inappropriate, but often too the comment which someone finds offensive may have been nothing more than an inadvertent micro-aggression that then gets blown way out of proportion. That employers would rather just not hire a minority than deal with policing political correctness is simply a good business decision.

The alternative to providing a statutory basis for suing over employment discrimination was to allow employers to discriminate on the basis of race without consequence and simply hope that maybe one day, racism would go away. Not very palatable at the time, for sure. Well, not for those being discriminated against.

 

[RetiredUSN]

The U.S. Department of Justice report about the Ferguson, Mo., police department found the arrest of blacks was disproportionate to their numbers in the community. It concluded that the only possible explanation for the racial disparity was that the Ferguson Police Department was routinely violating the constitutional rights of its black residents.

Disproportionate is a useless term. If a certain group of people are caught committing the higher volume of crimes, they will be stopped & arrested more. The town has been out of control for years.

Should a cop consider a racial quota when he is called to a crime scene. Should the police let a certain guilty person go because of racial percentages?

The entire DOJ report was hacked by a witch hunt.

 

[Gimmesometruth]

The DOJ couldn't find any hiring practice violations on the police force even though they tried. Blacks were not applying. Can you show me where the PD was turning away black applicants?

The point wasn't "hiring practices", it is about enforcement bias.

 

[calamity]

I don't see how any of this supports your thesis that "affirmative action" is what causes the kind of thing the OP describes. Gangs harass non-gang members in ghettos who get jobs because a black candidate might get into a college over an equally qualified white candidate? Thugs vandalize students' books because ... affirmative action? What kind of sense does that make?

(Besides, the kind of thing the OP describes is endemic to all broken poor ghetto areas in other countries. If American "affirmative action" policies were to blame, then American cities would be the only ones with the kind of ghetto culture you describe)

I think you're just trying to blame something bad on something you don't like for entirely different reasons.

It was just a sidebar. Quite alright to discuss though since it too was brought up in the man's radio discussion.

A lot of things were brought up in that conversation. A few good points, but a lot of political rhetoric too. The gist of the conversation was, "Why do Blacks continue voting for Democrats when nothing changes when Democrats get elected?" Most of the talk focused on silly cliches. But, there were a few gems worthy of a second look.

 

[calamity]

The point wasn't "hiring practices", it is about enforcement bias.

Yeah. They should arrest people who are not committing crimes. Gotta keep it fair ya know.

Before you think I am being ridiculous. Think. The riot began because the state refused to indict an innocent man.

 

[RetiredUSN]

The point wasn't "hiring practices", it is about enforcement bias.

There was no bias. Go spend a couple days in Ferguson and see what goes on. Been there, done that...........and it ain't pretty.

 

[Cephus]

That post makes a lot of sense. Who should clean up the hoods is the question I have. They're internal. In the old Mafia neighborhoods, everybody knew the power structure, who was in charge, who enforced, who finked, who collected, etc. The neighborhood has some responsibility to police some of this when it is youths. Does it represent a failure of Black social attitudes and behaviors? Are these creeps aggrandized in the social structure? I don't think this is all potentially Cop curable. I think the Community must organize to have a successful cure.

I think that cleaning up these neighborhoods is almost entirely the responsibility of the community itself. Sure, the police should be there to arrest the criminals and you could make a case that they need to be making more arrests in these neighborhoods to take the bad seeds out of the equation, but that's just going to inflame the neighborhoods, who have been told by the liberals for decades now that nothing bad that ever happens to them is their fault, it's always someone else to blame. Until these people voluntarily give up on that attitude, until they learn on their own that their very culture is toxic to success, nothing is ever going to improve. It is their very lifestyle that is destroying their chances of getting out of the ghetto and the left doesn't want them to actually improve, it might cost them votes.

 

[Gimmesometruth]

Disproportionate is a useless term. If a certain group of people are caught committing the higher volume of crimes, they will be stopped & arrested more. The town has been out of control for years.

Should a cop consider a racial quota when he is called to a crime scene. Should the police let a certain guilty person go because of racial percentages?

The entire DOJ report was hacked by a witch hunt.

Though blacks make up only two-thirds of Ferguson’s population, nearly nine-tenths of vehicle stops in Ferguson involve black drivers. Those drivers are almost twice as likely as white drivers to be searched and twice as likely to be arrested. That’s despite the fact that searches of black drivers result in discovery of contraband 22% of the time, while white drivers searched by police are found to have contraband 34% of the time.

 

[calamity]

I'm sure you can come up with all sorts of imagined answers from me, just like you can start a thread based on non-attributed comments by something you heard by some on a show somewhere.....instead of actually using fact based argument from reputable sources....and sticking to said argument.

I bet you love "un-named sources" when they tell you what you want to hear.

The remarks make for a good base to begin discussion. They were just an opinion anyway. So, even if sourced, it would not have changed much. I'm sure I can find an article by Thomas Sowell or someone like Walter Williams which you will cry about too.

 

[Gimmesometruth]

Yeah. They should arrest people who are not committing crimes. Gotta keep it fair ya know.

Before you think I am being ridiculous. Think. The riot began because the state refused to indict an innocent man.

Keep on avoiding discussing those other things, keep focusing on one thing you think the protest was about.

 

[Gimmesometruth]

I bet you love "un-named sources" when they tell you what you want to hear.

As I said, keep on creating total straw argument, I'm not making things out of whole cloth, repeating them ad nauseum.

 

[RetiredUSN]

Though blacks make up only two-thirds of Ferguson’s population, nearly nine-tenths of vehicle stops in Ferguson involve black drivers. Those drivers are almost twice as likely as white drivers to be searched and twice as likely to be arrested. That’s despite the fact that searches of black drivers result in discovery of contraband 22% of the time, while white drivers searched by police are found to have contraband 34% of the time.

What does contraband have to do with the other couple thousand reason that people get arrested for.

You cherry pick on 1 source of crime to make a point................... while overlooking the overall picture just because you think it justifies your argument. If you haven't been to Ferguson....then you have no clue.

 

[Cephus]

The DOJ didn't mention the report by the Missouri Uniform Crime Reporting Program as listing Ferguson as a high crime "crap hole" long before the shooting ever happened.

The problems in the Ferguson black community go far deeper than traffic tickets.

According to the Missouri Uniform Crime Reporting Program, which provides crime statistics for every city in Missouri according to age, sex, crime type and race since 2001 (the Justice Department report examined only a sample size of the last three years):

• Since 2001, 18,608 people have been arrested in Ferguson; 84 percent have been black.

• Since 2001, 469 people have been arrested for burglary in Ferguson; 91 percent of them have been black.

• Since 2001, 287 people have been arrested for weapons charges in Ferguson; 90 percent were black.

• Since 2001, nine people have been arrested for murder in Ferguson. Eight of the nine were black.

• Since 2001, 28 people have been arrested in Ferguson for rape. All were black.

• Since 2001, 133 people have been arrested for robbery in Ferguson; 88 percent were black.

• Since 2001, 147 people have been arrested for motor-vehicle theft in Ferguson; 92.5 percent were black.

• Since 2001, 4,882 people have been arrested for larceny in Ferguson; 80 percent were black.

But that's the problem with looking at everything on the basis of skin color. It doesn't matter if 100% of the criminals arrested are black if 100% of the criminals actually happen to be black. Crime isn't based on quotas. The people who actually commit the crimes need to be brought to justice. If the majority of criminals are black, for whatever reasons that happens to be, then the majority of people arrested for crimes will be black. FBI crime statistics clearly shows that the overwhelming majority of certain types of crimes are committed by blacks. That is what it is. But when you get people, particularly on the left, who can see nothing but race in everything, start whining that too many black people are being arrested because they're black, instead of just wanting people arrested because they're guilty, the whole system breaks down.

 

[RetiredUSN]

But that's the problem with looking at everything on the basis of skin color. It doesn't matter if 100% of the criminals arrested are black if 100% of the criminals actually happen to be black. Crime isn't based on quotas. The people who actually commit the crimes need to be brought to justice. If the majority of criminals are black, for whatever reasons that happens to be, then the majority of people arrested for crimes will be black. FBI crime statistics clearly shows that the overwhelming majority of certain types of crimes are committed by blacks. That is what it is. But when you get people, particularly on the left, who can see nothing but race in everything, start whining that too many black people are being arrested because they're black, instead of just wanting people arrested because they're guilty, the whole system breaks down.

I have been trying to explain that to Gimmesometruth, but he can only see the skin color issue.

 

[CriticalThought]

After working in the social work feild I am pretty torn. It is obvious to me there is institutional racism but there is also the street thug culture. Both seem to perpetuate the other. How do you make police and judges more trusting of the black community when so many embrace the street code culture and how do you increase the black community's trust of the system when arrests and incarcerations are so disproportionately high and unarmed black youth are getting gunned down by police.

I think a lot of it has to start at our incarceration system. We have to look at how we are addressing these cultural issues in prison and reintegrating people into society. Actually, the whole criminal justice system needs to be moved in a different direction. It seems to be doing more harm than good.

 

[Gimmesometruth]

What does contraband have to do with the other couple thousand reason that people get arrested for.

You cherry pick on 1 source of crime to make a point................... while overlooking the overall picture just because you think it justifies your argument. If you haven't been to Ferguson....then you have no clue.

The issues in Ferguson are not unique to it, they are repeated in many communities throughout the US. Crime levels are proportionate to the level of economic distress, independent of the ethnic demography. The problem always has been that blacks face the greatest levels of economic distress, and that is the result of long standing and continuing discrimination.

 

[Cephus]

Though blacks make up only two-thirds of Ferguson’s population, nearly nine-tenths of vehicle stops in Ferguson involve black drivers. Those drivers are almost twice as likely as white drivers to be searched and twice as likely to be arrested. That’s despite the fact that searches of black drivers result in discovery of contraband 22% of the time, while white drivers searched by police are found to have contraband 34% of the time.

The Ferguson Police Dept was 94% white in 2014.

Of course, none of that makes a damn bit of difference. The fact is that nationwide, blacks simply do commit certain crimes more than whites, even though they make up less than 20% of the total population. They commit more than half of all murders. They commit more than half of all robberies. They commit 2/3 of all gambling crimes. It isn't just the straight numbers, it's also the percentage of black people in overall society and when we recognize that 20% of the population is committing more than 20% of many crimes, we have to start asking why. When you have 2/3 of the town of Ferguson being black, it only makes sense to put more of your valuable and limited policing power looking toward communities that are known to commit more crimes than any other in particular categories. It's not racism, it's statistics. They're unfortunate statistics, but people need to stop screaming racism left and right and start asking why this is how it is.

 

[RetiredUSN]

The issues in Ferguson are not unique to it, they are repeated in many communities throughout the US. Crime levels are proportionate to the level of economic distress, independent of the ethnic demography. The problem always has been that blacks face the greatest levels of economic distress, and that is the result of long standing and continuing discrimination.

Being poor doesn't give you a free pass with committing crimes.